Plant Nutrients & Human Multivitamins

[IndianDreaming]

I recently found this easy to read article on plant nutrients: http://www.ncagr.gov/cyber/kidswrld/plant/nutrient.htm

Apart from a well balanced fertiliser and good soil, does anyone feeds their plants human supplements, vitamins, minerals or multivitamin tablets? The search engine shows a bit of use but I'm wondering if anyone here has tried it?

Are any of the vitamins humans need detrimental to plant health?

[waterboy 2.0]

In a past life I have use thiamin, riboflavin,tocopherol and nicotininc acid in TC applications (probably others if I think about it - coconut milk is a complex one). However plants are "force fed" if you can think of it that way in TC, plus if your doing freaky hormone driven acts like a god...lol.

These were lab grade, not human supplement derived compounds.

Theres been other products like good old "Superthrive" , but to be honest I've found no benefit from giving rooted or deflasked plants vitamins.

[IndianDreaming]

I see... The reason I ask is because I have some plants that seem to be chlorotic. I have a (human) magnesium supplement, 'iron plus' multivitamin and a zinc complex - the latter also conatins vitamin B6. I have no idea where to get manganese from but I do have a 'MultiVitamin' that has about 30 things in it and Manganese is one of them.

I'm going to mash a pill of each into my watering can and give it a go I think. The info I'm going off came from here: http://www.omafra.go...0/14hrt10a5.htm

Can Zinc, Iron, Mangansese or Magnesium burn plants?

Now that I've fought off every pest known to man in my gardening career, fertilisers are something I'm about to tackle... What do you use?

I've also been reading that the Ph is very important for plants to be able to take up nutirents. My tap water Ph is close to 8 - which isn't helping some of my plants I think...

Edited January 8, 2013 by IndianDreaming

[waterboy 2.0]

too much epsom salts can burn plants I am aware of as a foliar feed - Magnesium.

Which thinking about it, IS useful....lol.

pH is important but how it behaves in the soil is more critical, and also the "rule of the minimum" when looking at nutrients

http://en.wikipedia...._of_the_minimum

Some excessive amounts of one nutrient can lock up another causing deficiencies, and ph can also lock up nutrients. You'll find heaps of info if you look but an example of a pH availabilty chart:

For me killer compost, odd compost/vermicast teas, and when going chem wise good old Miracle Grow and with some things a bit of osmocote .

Edit - zeolite for adding more CEC with the compost, and dolomite.....

Edited January 8, 2013 by waterboy

[LokStok]

also check out Mulder's Chart

[IndianDreaming]

^ Fantastic charts, that's exactly what I'm looking for... fun stuff, that'll take me a while to digest! I have no doubt the chlorotic plant would be that way due to my hap-hazard and un-educated fertiliser use - especially now that I've seen the interactions.

Liebigs law looks similar to the chemistry concept of rate limiting - funny, it never occurred to me to apply that to plant chemistry invivo! and people...

[MikeyMagic]

Apart from a well balanced fertiliser and good soil, does anyone feeds their plants

human supplements? No, not affective on the scale I work. Never tried.

vitamins? No

minerals? Yes, I use various minerals for soil improvement when called for.

multivitamin tablets? No

Are any of the vitamins humans need detrimental to plant health?

If you are only using a very small amount, no.

The reason I ask is because I have some plants that seem to be chlorotic.

A possible sign of a nutrient imbalance.

Can you post a picture?

I've also been reading that the Ph is very important for plants to be able to take up nutirents.

It is. It might be easier to approach this subject first as this will give you a better understanding of your plant's needs.

"pH" is a measure of the activity of the Hydrogen ion on a scale of 1-14, 7 being neutral below that acidic, above that alkaline.

Most plants are happy at a pH arround 6.5 -7, many can tolerate outside that (but thats often when pest and disease problems occur) and some are much happier at other specific pH levels.

Here's a little more on pH : http://vro.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/vro/vrosite.nsf/pages/surface-soil-pH#measure

My tap water Ph is close to 8 - which isn't helping some of my plants I think

Probably not. I'm unfamilure with your local soil pH, so it is hard to say the end pH.

Due to the alkalinity of your water and the colorosisther is good chaance it is too alkaline

Here's a good link with various colorosis pictures due to insuffient levels of specific nutrients that might help to determin what is missing in the soil http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=t&id=289

But, in some cases it can still be hard to tell.

Check the pH of the soil first, you can do this with a "colourmetrix" pH tester avialable from most hardware places for @$30

I have difficulty with colour perception (apparently) so I find these tricky to use.

The "stick it in the ground probes" you can get very cheaply but I find them highly unreliable.

Personlly I use an electronic tester which I could probably write another chapter about but in the intrest of finishing this post I will save that till someone asks.

Testing the soil for pH, and assuming it is too high (alkaline) water your plant with 100gms of Epsom salts (Magnesium sulphate) dissolved in 9 ltrs of water.

This will help to do two things, firstly the Magnesium will aid clorophyll production, and secondly the Sulphur will help to acidify the soil making more nutrients 'available' for your plant.

Micro-nutrients such as manganese should be present in sufficent levels in most soils given correct pH balance.

Can Zinc, Iron, Mangansese or Magnesium burn plants?

Short answer? Excess nutrients cause more damage to plants than not enough.

[waterboy 2.0]

* handy hint aside dont read any colourmetric pH test under fluorescent lighting, use natural light.

[bullit]

all main water is high in ph but it hold nastiez and ph buffers too make tha water sweet too drink

[Alice]

I believe that vitamins are too large to be taken in across the transport proteins in the roots hair, and there cannot be absorbed. Minerals of course are absorbed this way, but not vitamins.

I also think that your multivitamin would have such minute quantities of minerals that you'd be better off just sourcing some actual fertiliser. I use Richgro or Yates trace elements mix for supplementation with excellent results, but there are a number of similar products at your local nursery/bunnings/masters etc that would do the same. Not to mention a lot cheaper than crushing up your multivitamins.

[Sallubrious]

Be careful using dolomite Waterboy.

Most soil scientist warn against using it unless a soil test has shown a deficiency of magnesium. They say an ideal soil has a calcium to magnesium ratio 6:1 that being 6 parts calcium to 1 magnesium.

When you use dolomite, it quickly throws this ratio out of whack which can have detrimental effects on the nitrogen cycle (plants can't use nitrogen efficiently in the presence of excess magnesium) and causes compaction of the soil.

I believe that a healthy soil will provide all the vitamins that plants need as bacteria manufactures a lot of vitamins, a bit like E. coli making vitamin K in our gut. As mentioned compost and compost teas are great for that.

[IndianDreaming]

I believe that vitamins are too large to be taken in across the transport proteins in the roots hair

 

Alice: Awesome! - I wondered how they sucked things up and absorbed them, but haven't researched it. I figured it was capiliary action to get the suction, and didn't think about it any more than that. I might have a bit of a dig around and see what I can learn about roots.

bullit: My water is disgustingly chlorinated too - I have a charcoal filter and a ceramic filter to remove taste for drinking - i water my plants with this filtered water too - maybe thats where the lack of nutirents is? Do filters remove trace minerals? it's a .5 micron ceramic filter and charcoal.

Mikey: I would love to hear how to use a digital meter to test the Ph. I have a really good digital Ph meter, I've been testing my water - can i just pour my water though the pot then test again? Do I make a bit of a mud pie with a scoop of water and dirt then test that? All the net research says get stips or use a spike tester. I really don't want to buy anything else when I have a really good Ph meter... Thanks for your detailled reply too.

I fed my sick plant some Ph adjusted water yesterday for the first time (white vinegar) - I'll post back how it responds.

Has anyone done any research on or used fulvic acid?

[Yavimaya]

bullit: My water is disgustingly chlorinated too - I have a charcoal filter and a ceramic filter to remove taste for drinking - i water my plants with this filtered water too - maybe thats where the lack of nutirents is? Do filters remove trace minerals? it's a .5 micron ceramic filter and charcoal.

 

I would not think minerals would gather in rainwater as it falls, so i woudlnt think there should be any problem with the water being nutrient free.

[MikeyMagic]

* handy hint aside dont read any colourmetric pH test under fluorescent lighting, use natural light.

 

Quite right.

The secret is to squint at it to get a true perception of the colour.

In my former career I would often have to do colour matching of gelcoats. Eeek!

I suspect some of the colour receptors in my eyes switched off in protest of having to perform under high pressure situations!

[IndianDreaming]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll be watering with a little epsom salts on my other sick plants tonight. I read that the sulphur in the epsom salts takes a while to convert to suphuric acid, and

I'm not sure I have the luxury of time, thats why I chose to test out the vinegar. Apparently vinegar is not a long term solution though whereas epsom salts can be.

It seems prevention is better than cure in the case of nutirents too - I'll be spending a bit more time checking my soil *before* planting in future.

Does anyone here regularly adjust their tap water? i.e. leave it sit to let the chlorine dissapear, boil, ph adjust, bless etc...?

Edit: my camera isn't working so I can't get a shot - but it definately looks like the first pic in the link from Mikey - Magnesium. Interveinal yellowing on the older leaves not young, mottling and wrinkled where yellow, leaf margins beginning to die.

I tihnk I'll check out 'Yates trace elements mix' too. I've used charlie carp and seasol to date, they work great on the tomato's, but I'm unsure if they're suitable for all plants.

Edited January 9, 2013 by IndianDreaming

[MikeyMagic]

I believe that vitamins are too large to be taken in across the transport proteins in the roots hair, and there cannot be absorbed. Minerals of course are absorbed this way, but not vitamins.

I also think that your multivitamin would have such minute quantities of minerals that you'd be better off just sourcing some actual fertiliser. I use Richgro or Yates trace elements mix for supplementation with excellent results, but there are a number of similar products at your local nursery/bunnings/masters etc that would do the same. Not to mention a lot cheaper than crushing up your multivitamins.

 

Yes, I believe you are correct in all these things.

I tend to use Dynamic lifter.

Its cheap @$20 for 25kg

Its a 'slow release' organic fertilizer which contains a good balance of all the essential nutrients which will feed your plants for a month or 6.

It also has the advantage over synthetic fertilizers, in that if the person ignores the reccomended useage instructions the plant will be undamaged.

Allways water enough to open up soil channels first, then distribute fertilizer/tonic and water in to maxmise results.

Liquid fertilizers offer faster results but require more frequent application.

Seasol is a great 'tonic' to assit with micronutrients

Powerfeed is great to assit growth during the warmer months.

[MikeyMagic]

Be careful using dolomite Waterboy.

Most soil scientist warn against using it unless a soil test has shown a deficiency of magnesium. They say an ideal soil has a calcium to magnesium ratio 6:1 that being 6 parts calcium to 1 magnesium.

When you use dolomite, it quickly throws this ratio out of whack which can have detrimental effects on the nitrogen cycle (plants can't use nitrogen efficiently in the presence of excess magnesium) and causes compaction of the soil.

I believe that a healthy soil will provide all the vitamins that plants need as bacteria manufactures a lot of vitamins, a bit like E. coli making vitamin K in our gut. As mentioned compost and compost teas are great for that.

 

Intresting. Have you any links where I could follow this information up?

Compost is fantastic for helping to stabilize soil pH, it brings it more towards that ideal range and also improves soil structure.

Edited January 9, 2013 by MikeyMagic

[waterboy 2.0]

^ thanks Sally, yep me definitely deficient - lab confirmed (visit my local lab every second day ). Very good point on the ratios.

also didnt add storm cast bull kelp(the real stuff) in ground - not pots ; that has been granulated. Very good for alginates....these are handy things to have in the rhizosphere.....

Edited January 9, 2013 by waterboy

[bullit]

Does anyone here regularly adjust their tap water? i.e. leave it sit to let the chlorine dissapear, boil, ph adjust, bless etc...?

 

i am only on rainwater but without the the rain i buy it which cames from townwater ! in my lack of water i was using my pool water sitting in buckets 4 a couple of days in the sun . i tested the chlorine levels and it was lower than my bought town water. been watering this way over a month no plants have died yet?!?!?!

but the heat is killin them arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Edited January 9, 2013 by bullit

[IndianDreaming]

Composting is an art that I haven't got the hang of yet... my compost pile is disgusting, I fear to go near it in case I contact some horrible disease from it.

[MikeyMagic]

Mikey: I would love to hear how to use a digital meter to test the Ph. I have a really good digital Ph meter, I've been testing my water - can i just pour my water though the pot then test again? Do I make a bit of a mud pie with a scoop of water and dirt then test that? All the net research says get stips or use a spike tester. I really don't want to buy anything else when I have a really good Ph meter... Thanks for your detailled reply too.

I fed my sick plant some Ph adjusted water yesterday for the first time (white vinegar) - I'll post back how it responds.

Has anyone done any research on or used fulvic acid?

 

Testing the soil/media is of more benefit than testing the water (although this is still helpfull in decion making).

There are a number of test methods but from what you say it seems the plant of concern is in a pot.

The most appropriate method (although not the most accurate) would be the;

"Pour-through technique for mix in pots

This tecnique is widely used as a quick and non-destructive method of determining the pH and EC of mix in pots.

It is less accurate than slurry methods but is often found to be good enough for many practical situation.

1. Two hours after normal irrigation, select several pots from a batch for testing.

2. Suspend each pot over a saucer or dish of a diameter that is a little larger than that of the baseof the pot.

3. Pour onto the surface of the pot a volume of water that gives about 50ml of drainage. Do this slowly, so as to allow time for the added water to move through the mix to displace some of the water already there.

4. Remove the pot and determine the pH and EC of the drainage water."

Growing media for ornamental plants and turf Handrek & Black.

This is the soil bible for Australian soil, and the basis for the majority of our soil research in Austrlia.

Well worth going to a book sale and looking for this one. Normally theres half a dozen copies for @$10

There are different tests for getting accurate readings on potting mix or soil.

If anyone is intrested feel free to ask.

I fed my sick plant some Ph adjusted water yesterday for the first time (white vinegar) - I'll post back how it responds.

This seems a little risky to me, has anyone else tried this?

Has anyone done any research on or used fulvic acid?

No, but I have used sulphur to acidify soil (this must be done sparing, carefully and with lots of watering in to avoid burning plants) Ive also used various suplhur containing compounds as aids to acidify media. I normally work on the media pH

Thanks for your detailled reply too.

It gives me pleasure to share what I know with those who have a geniune intrest.

It also helps me reinforce knowledge relavent to my proffession.

So get used to seeing me around people!

Edited January 10, 2013 by MikeyMagic

[MikeyMagic]

Composting is an art that I haven't got the hang of yet... my compost pile is disgusting, I fear to go near it in case I contact some horrible disease from it. :puke:/>

Thats an easy one;

Basiclly it comes down to a mix of Carbon (for simplicity let just say dry brown things like dry leaves, paper etc)

and Nitrogen (Wet green stuff such as veg scraps, freshly cut grass etc)

the ratio of which many people will argue but @ 1 part Nitrogen to 25 parts Carbon (give or take)

It also help to contruct it in layers that assit in drainage

The first layer would be sticks for this purpose.

then a bit of green stuff, a bit more of the brown stuff, maybe a little soil to help intiate microbial break down, and contiue layering...

(Compost heaps made in one go are far more effective, but I rarely bother to do it all in one go.)

...water then wait, when the heap colapses get some air into it with one of those compost corkscrews.

By what you say about your compost, if you mix some more carbon in it should come good. Might be easier to open it up and re-set it up in layers.

[MikeyMagic]

 

 

I would not think minerals would gather in rainwater as it falls, so i woudlnt think there should be any problem with the water being nutrient free.

They do in the form of atmospheric dust, but this is normally minor and of little concern. Edited January 9, 2013 by MikeyMagic

[MikeyMagic]

..definately looks like the first pic in the link from Mikey - Magnesium. Interveinal yellowing on the older leaves not young, mottling and wrinkled where yellow, leaf margins beginning to die.

<<< *Blows imaginary smoke from tip of secateurs, spins them in hand, then holsters them and rides off into the sunset on a bee..*

Edited January 9, 2013 by MikeyMagic

[waterboy 2.0]

There can be a fair bit of nitrogen and phosphorous in "atmospheric fallout", its greater near cities....contributes to stormwater pollution. I've modelled tonnes/ha of roof area before.

Also get more nitrogen in rain during lightning events.

EDIT -f you can get deciduous leaves and dont want to make compost, make leaf mould. Utilises fungi mostly, its a set and forget operation....

Edited January 9, 2013 by waterboy