Incarvillateine- stronger analgesic than morphine

[shonman]

Anodyne-That is what I was thinking of--the zombie catepillar fungs, so highly prized in Chinese Traditional medicine.

Scarecrow--will have to look into that plant you mentioned.

Edited October 18, 2015 by shonman

[hebrew]

This is all very interesting, I will have to go and get some plant material

[shonman]

If you grow from seed, I suggest very sandy soil, do not transplant before they get a bit bigger....

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

So now we've got flowers going I wonder if they are able to be ID'd as true I. sinensis? I've given heaps out and would love to know if I should tell people we need to start again. I'm away from my plants and will miss the flowers and where I've left them aren't plant people's... So who else got flowers besides glaukus? Can ya upload some new photos?

Also how did we go with the new extract that got ordered from China? Has it been received and tested yet? Once again I won't get a chance to know for a few weeks but keen to know what others think. I hope mines waiting for me when I get home

Edit; shonman they seem to grow easily enough in Australian potting soil with added sand. Moist or bone dry mine showed no difference in speed or growth rates etc. greenhouse plants were no better off than full sun plants which were no better off than shaded plants. The only plants that struggled were under CFL and LED. Another member here also found he had to keep his really moist and shady for anything to happen with his plants.

Edited October 18, 2015 by theuserformallyknownasd00d

[stonewolf]

I've managed to use it for aches and pain successfully a few times. Quite relaxing. Still no damn Euphoria. I wonder how active it really is orally. Perhaps it worked traditionally being heat activated, brewed in a tea and all. I'll try sublingually and boiling it, might even try a few cones. It worked well in mice IM if I remember correctly? ROA might play a big part. Alternatively it's just not that active in humans.

Edited October 19, 2015 by stonewolf

[shonman]

Who knows how well the extract from China, was extracted..

Has anyone tried plants that they grew themselves?

I wonder if it could be vaporized......

[Strontium Dawg]

The plants are very spindly, there will be a large numbers plants required to make any significant quantity of extract. Also, who knows whether drying or fresh foliage will produce active extracts?

[shonman]

perhaps the cells could be grown in a bioreactor and produce actives

,,,,if worth producing

Edited October 23, 2015 by shonman

[mystical oyster]

I have tried the new batch with no noticeable effects, upto 1200mg..

Maybe some relaxation but a thin line between placebo and effects..

Ive had a headache for a couple days so may take some this morning and report back any results..

[BedOSpines]

Had better results when having no coffee for 24hrs, but still not much outside of the realm of relaxation. Some muscle relaxation, it did help with a stif neck and headaches. No notable side affect at 1500mg, I like the smell haha, smells familiar for some reason? Weird.

[mystical oyster]

2000mg taken yesterday afternoon had little to no effect on my migraine.. ive been drinking coffee and smoking joints to so maybe not working as good because of this

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Seems like the coffee thing is a real deal breaker. I wonder if there are any other supps that can help counteract this and not interfere at all with the sinensis. Caffeine is so widely used by just about everyone so unless we can work this out I doubt it will catch on big time like kratom etc.

The joints really shouldn't affect it, based on other reports I've heard it's a nice synergy.

when everyone else has tried and failed what was your coffee intake? I only ever used it at least 9-10hrs after a fairly weak 70-90mg caffeine coffee in the morning with good results. I know a lot of my friends use upwards of 200-400mg caffeine per day, and this seems to be fairly routine for a lot of people I've spoken too.

I should also add I've only ever used it whilst relaxing in rooms which were dimmed from excessive light etc, i believe different kinds of light can affect the hormones and signals the brain is sending out, including the regulation of adenosine, the receptor coffee is tricking and blocking the reputake of. Maybe I've explained this wrong I haven't thought or researched it in a few months, but set and setting and time of day could play a role in the availability of sinensis in the body. I'm pretty sure this is what anodyne had already said.

[mystical oyster]

Yea its morning ritual to drink coffee but maybe ill take a day or 2 off before trying the extract again.. Usually ill only have 1 coffee, yesterday could have been upto 3 though, spaced out over the morning, maybe 250mg caffeine, time between last coffee and taking the extract would be approx 6hr..

Had a fierce migraine which maybe toned down for a couple hours but by night was back in full swing again.. woke up with it again so today im stepping up to paracetamol and heaps of water..

[Anodyne]

Hmm interesting, I'll write up some more detailed notes later, but for now I just wanted to say that I seem to get decent effects from the extract(s) despite having an opioid tolerance. But my caffeine intake is pretty low, and I do need doses in the low grams, not hundreds of milligrams.

For those implying that the extracts might be bunk, take a look at the patent application I linked to on an earlier page. From memory most of the common organic solvents (inc ethanol, which was used to make the commercially, available extracts) work just fine at extracting all the goodies we're aware of. If there are any issues with stability, no one had commented on them (& since some were chemical syntheses, you'd think this would've come up if it were a problem). So I think that individual biochemical/metabolic/etc differences are a more feasible explanation for the range of reactions we seem to be getting here.

[Scarecrow]

if you ditch the coffee for some ginseng tea you'll solve the problem, improve your health, and have real energy throughout the day instead of false energy borrowed from later

[Anodyne]

Aside from the proposed opioid & adenosine mechanisms, we also have that endocannabinoid thing as a contender (and it's likely that the real answer will end up being "all of the above"). And while I don't understand how that whole system works, I've gotta wonder if those who regularly use (what do you call em here? maybe exo-cannabinoids?) will have a different reaction than cannabis-naive subjects? So while it's not something we can discuss openly (unless people want to work on their creative writing skills), it is a factor to consider. It may turn out to have no impact at all on incarvillateine reactions, or maybe the pot smokers will get a potentiated effect, who knows? Just something I'm wondering about.

[theuserformallyknownasd00d]

Interesting points Ano can't wait to catch up and chat about this in more detail

In the mean while, do you think iso would be a good solvent for sinensis? My thoughts are to dissolve the extract in iso (or grain alc if needed), filter out the impurities, Evap and add to VG and try on my drip rba with a mod.

It's really interesting what you noted re cannabinoids and sinensis, you may be onto something. Not that mysticals reports match that but he did have excess coffee (like most people). I also like the ginseng approach as suggest led by scarecrow. Maybe I'll try a ginseng extract and use decaf coffee for a few days and retrial myself when I get stone wolfs extract.

[2XB]

Some dude tried 10 grams of powder soaked in 180+ proof ethanol, about 100mls for a week or so. This was the powder stonewolf kindly donated.. . This was done months ago wheh the powder wss sent around..

The dude filtered and kept the solvent.. .

Was told initially tried the ethanol straight with the dropper, < than 10 mls and felt It had a nice euphoria and sedative quality, apparently felt it was the extract affecting as it was not a familar feeling, however dude was drinking and smoking dope so can't be sure.. got really excited but have since tried it in water but the flavour was terrible, and the dose was ineffective. Says has intended to further dose the straight ethanol but haven't gotten around to it so will report once more info available..

One thing noteworthy was that the powder gummed up in ethanol ( and acetone) so not sure how effective the extraction could be..........

[Anodyne]

Just found this intriguing little snippet at the end of Review: Chemical Constituents of Plants from the Genus Incarvillea (by Fu et al 2009)

3.5. Other Activities. Total alkaloids of I. olgae were tested on the mice, rabbits, and isolated intestine. The LD 100 value for mice was 500 mg/kg. The alkaloids have a sedative action and antagonize phenamine, increase the effects of soporific, are hypothermic, block d-cholin-oreastive systems, and in larger doses lower arterial pressure ^[36]...

...[36] F. Sadritinov, Farmacol. Alkaloidov 1965 , 2 , 328.

Am unable to find the original Sadritinov paper, but that ref was enough to pique my interest - so Incarvillea olgae may be another species worth checking out. The list of known alkaloids has no overlap with sinensis/delavayi that I can see, so we may be talking totally different activities, but it kind of sounds interesting in its own right. And maybe there are common compounds that they just didn't spot - it's not like this was exhaustive research done with modern equipment. The bit I found really interesting was how its alkaloids "antagonize phenamine", which is apparently an old-fashioned name for racemic amphetamine. So now I'm wondering if the incarv alkaloids in general antagonise (or are antagonised by) stimulants in general. We already had caffeine & theophylline on the list, and while I have my doubts about the pharmacological similarity of olgae, it might be another piece of the puzzle if amphetamines can be added to that list as well. That bit about increasing the effects of soporifics doesn't sound half-bad either

[Anodyne]

In the mean while, do you think iso would be a good solvent for sinensis? My thoughts are to dissolve the extract in iso (or grain alc if needed), filter out the impurities, Evap and add to VG and try on my drip rba with a mod.

Most of the studies seem to use methanol. I think one used a 1:1 mix of isopropyl & chloroform for the reX after an ethanol extraction? (but I can't find the damn thing now!)

Here's some detail from that patent:

A combination of an organic solvent and water may be used, when required. Organic solvents for extraction includes, for example, methanol, ethanol, n-butanol, ethyl acetate, chloroform, etc., among which methanol and ethanol are preferable. Extraction with these extracting solvents can be carried out at a temperature ranging from room temperature to reflux temperature. Among these extracts, a component having a particularly remarkable analgetic and anti-infammatory action is a 60% methanol eluate fraction (Sample 6 as will be described later) of methanol extracts by polystyrene-based column chromatography, and incarvillateine is isolated from the eluate fraction as a compound having a good analgtetic and anti-inflammatory action. It is well known that incarvillateine itself is a compound isolated from 95% ethanol extract of Incarvillea sinensis Lam.

Isopropyl didn't make it to their list, but that doesn't mean it won't work.

There was also this study (Antinociceptive substances from Incarvillea delavayi, by Nakamura et al 2000) which suggests that playing around with different ROAs may be interesting:

An oral administration of the delavayi extract weakly decreased the number of writhings and stretchings in this test, in a dose-dependent manner. Furthermore, orally administered 8-epideoxyloganic acid showed weak antinociceptive activity, whereas administration by subcutaneous injection did not. However, subcutaneous injection of delavayine A, a novel monoterpene alkaloid, showed a more significant level of antinociceptive activity.

So some components work stronger orally, and some are weaker. Be interesting to learn how they go vaped or smoked.

[BedOSpines]

I tried to roll this stuff up to try smoking... Not an easy task. It wouldn't burn. Maybe if you mixed it with some other herb it would work? No vape to try unfortunately. I didn't have high hopes that it would work. But what els to do at 1am lol.

[BedOSpines]

Perhaps this is relavent?http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21380801