Bad news about KTBotanicals and Kiwiboancaya

[mindperformer]

Maybe some of you already ordered from this two companies and had problems with them.

I communicated with both and, like other ethnobotanists, I told them they had the wrong species, but they didn't change it.

First of all to KTBotanicals:

They sell a plant as Piper methysticum (bestseller), which is actually Piper auritum. Look at their picture: The leaf veins of the plant on the picture are diverging from a central vein and overall it looks like Piper auritum.

The leaves of Piper methysticum have all completely different leaf-veins. They are ALL diverging from the base of the leaf-blade and NOT from a central vein like Piper auritum.

I asked them to change the name of the plant, but they were pigheaded, since Kava sells better than the easier to grow Piper auritum...

To Kiwiboancaya:

Months ago they sold many wrong species like Diplopterys cabrerana, Psychotria colorata, Ilex guayusa and Uncaria tomentosa, which were actually other species. I and many others wrote him to stop it or rename them, then his site was down...

Now he is online again with a new assortment without the Diplopterys- and Iley guayusa- seed but still with the wrong identified Psychotria colorata (look at their picture of the plant, it has orange and not blue berries). From the Diplopterys cabrerana- plant he simply showed no picture... and the Erythroxylum coca- berries are way too round and not longitudinal, like the real Eryt.

I'm also sceptical about their Calliandra angustifolia, because years ago I got some of this seeds and they were much smaller and darker...

Their shipping- prices, he told me in the first mail (for seeds to europe) are also a joke and rip-off:

10 seeds ...$22

50 seeds ...$55

This looks very arbitrary and are out of proportion to the real shipping prices of a small envelope with seeds, which will never exceed the $5- mark...

[planthelper]

i always wondered why there are quite a few people believing there auritrum is Piper methysticum.

remeber if it grows well and easy, than it's auritrum. kava is a bitch to grow in most parts of the world.

[mindperformer]

I agree with you, thats the reason why kava is much harder to get, especially in europe. I got a plant today and put it in a small greenhouse with controlled warm temperature, high humidity and mild light.

[chronic]

Many thought the kava in Europe is illegal, or the plant will not survive the long transport.

Dealers from the United States can not send plants outside the U.S..

Edited August 29, 2012 by pan

[mindperformer]

I agree,

Kava had a bad reputation because of studies (payed from the pharmaceutical industry) in which they gave extremely high doses of kavapyrones together with medis and observed liver failure.

Later this was disconfirmed, but this wasn't really propagated. After all its easy to get kava-powder and extracts here in Austria.

[planthelper]

mp, according to my own believes, the pharma kava trouble started because the, pharma company wankers, used above ground material (it was cheap to buy, what f..... c....), for there pills!!!!

traditionaly above ground kava get's hardly used, because it contains unwanted activas (a similar story as the pituri story).

Edited September 25, 2012 by planthelper

[Auxin]

Not all blame lies on the fraudulent dealers. Most, but not all.

Like the old saying goes, dont take any wooden nickels.

I hate the perversely unbalanced shipping charge trick tho, wastes so much of my time looking at items with a seemingly good price.

i always wondered why there are quite a few people believing there auritrum is Piper methysticum.

Have people reported any experiences from making 'kava' brews out of Piper auritum roots?

[mindperformer]

Right: The leaves and stems of the kava-plant contain Pipermethystine, which was found to be livertoxic. In some cheap preparations they put some stems in the extraction and because of that there were some liver-toxic actions.

Piper auritum, like the Maori-Kava (Macropiper excelsum) does not contain Kavalactones and has completely different action.

[Auxin]

I quite doubt that pipermethystine is the end of the story. I wouldnt eat the stuff, but it being the causative factor for liver injuries is speculative.

All the people who died of liver failure while on kava were using pharmaceutical drugs that are known to harm the liver. The pharmaceutical companies and their paid representatives in governments blamed kava so vociferously to take suspicion away from the pharms the people were on. Kava alters activities of numerous metabolic enzymes and may have made the pharms more toxic but many common foods would do similar so even that factor wasnt mentioned.

As the islanders get more westernized and get put on diabetes meds and antidepressants, I would speculate that kava will be vilified once again when people get sick from the pharms they take.

[mindperformer]

I absolutely agree with you Auxin, the studies from the pharm-industry were not representative for actions of Kava alone.

After all one should avoid high dose- combinations with Kava, because it is a strong inhibitor of CYP 450- enzymes, like St. John's Wort:

http://www.unifra.br/pos/aafarm/downloads/_interaction%20kava%20and%20st_%20johns%20wort%20with%20drugs.pdf

[Mr. Bowser]

Saw the prices on the Alicia anisopetala seed (min order 20 USD for 20 seeds) at kiwiboancaya ... pretty outrageous before adding shipping also !

Mindperformer, if you or anyone else knows of a more reliable / reasonable seed bank for Alicia anisopetala or DC that can ship to US please PM me Thanks!

[Torsten]

I noticed the other day that KT botanicals tried to sign up to the forums shortly after this thread was started. he did not validate his account though despite having been sent multiple confirmation emails. I can't force people to check their spam folders for these things.

[mindperformer]

KTBotanicals changed their Kava-picture, maybe they actually got the right species now (its a Hawaiian Mo'i and I think I know from whom they got it yet).

Edited September 27, 2012 by mindperformer

[mindperformer]

@ Mr. Bowser:

Alicia sp.: I think Kiwi has the right species,

here he also sells: http://www.spiritpla...hp?topic=4753.0

and one can compare the different seeds of Alicia macrodisca and A. anisopetala

http://herbarium.lsa.umich.edu/malpigh/ChrClade/Alicia/AliMac.html

http://www.google.at...29,r:1,s:0,i:73

Edited September 27, 2012 by mindperformer

[mindperformer]

@ all the blamed companies:

I'm not zebra thinking, so I also write down positive impressions when selling the right species....

But adding the wrong picture of a plant, means for sellers it isn't the right species.

You didn't change anything after our communications and because of this suspicions I had to post it here.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

hmm I just found kiwi by chance , I am also in the EU

sorry to hear you had issues..

I am going to try them anyway at some point this year when I get round to it

because a friend has told me their experience with kiwi was a positive one..

I'll post here if it was a positive experience by the time it's happened - with regards to plant ID and postage -

and anything else that might strike me as relevant at the time

so far I wrote to kiwi politely enquiring... and got a speedy positive reply

[hypnotoad]

Kiwiboancaya's packaging is very primative. Wet paper towel wrapped in foil. Every seed I've gotten from them has been completely consumed by mold by the time I got it.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

thanks for the heads up , my interest is mainly virola, these can take getting rotten externally - thankfully

but none the less, I also considered theobroma seeds so I will test them with just virola first only...

and if they're un-useable, ill post it and there will be yet more to back this thread... however

if i get success, ill post that too, maybe a sign of progression?

so long as virola remain in their protective inner shell (that i just dicovered were prohibiting my sebifera from germinating - i left them on after reading torsten post that his just melted in the germinating process - leading me: to believe some species of virola are very very different indeed and some need separating..... and to research at the institutes instead)

,,,,says theiodora for kiwi's virola

new one to me

and he said when to try again... and got back to me rapid... this is awesome compared with the other virola seed sellers findable already

just for the communications...so far

I am already familiar with everyone else's prices and if his are too high , it will stop there and be reviewed at that point

but I review virtually everything I touch as far as plant and aquatic life suppliers ..

and help them improve -where possible-. for the benefit mainly of the lives they're selling but also for the buyer and seller..

.I have to give a wanted resolution too that suits both sides

something constructive , and pro-advancement ,

- acheiving that, ....then the accurate and precise review

- failing that, .....then the warnings go out ... from me too

Edited April 29, 2014 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ

[rahli]

Brought virola seed from kiwi a few years back and they where packaged badly, had gone moldy then rotted And dried. Might be an Idea to ask him to pack seeds in spagnim moss (not sure how easy that is to get in peru) and seal in a plastic bag to prevent drying.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

thank you I will see if he can just use foil alone maybe

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

yep... , zero reply so far and its supposed to be fruiting time for virola according to em

.... boo

looks like im not gna get as far to find any redeeming qualities...

[Kitesurfer]

Hey Mindperformer, how did you go with your search for Diplopterys Cabrerana?

Kiwi have it on their site saying it will be available soon but after your post I will also look for alternatives. I would be grateful to buy a Diplopterys cultivar and would be happy to include a large variegated trichocereus macrogonus or variegated pasacana also.

[Lorax]

Not sure if i should be posting about another seed supplier on the SAB forum.
PM me for details on where to get Alica Anisopetala seeds.

[shonman]

some plants are difficult to find...

"that plant is ALWAYS "just around the next bend in the road".....always'

Edited June 25, 2016 by shonman

[DayLight]

This does not supprise me at all, and not due to ktbotanicals at all. AFAIK they are not operating anymore, but the former owner now runs a kava bar about an hour or two from my property. He was a great vendor ime.

Years ago I visited the Brooklyn botanical garden in new York city, and stole a tiny cutting of their kava plant....upon getting it home I learned it was also piper atrium. I have tried to contact the gardens via email to no response. Next time I am in nyc I may go and see if I can get them to relate the plant.

So I am not supprised, as one of the most well known botanical gardens in the states also has this plant Id problem and refuses to address it.