Acacia acuminata

[mindperformer]

how do you bethink this claim? he mentioned folias / Julian many times, justifiably

and I agree and only wanted to know if he knows, what was folia's reason for harvesting so much dangered species, for him or for money

[phyllode]

Who runs shaman-aus? Someone who knows what they're talking about!

I commend Torsten. <3

[ballzac]

how do you bethink this claim? he mentioned folias / Julian many times, justifiably

and I agree and only wanted to know if he knows, what was folias' reason for harvesting so much dangered species, for him or for money

 

Torsten implied that folias was ethically responsible for a lot of what occurred, but unless I'm missing something, he did not once actually incriminate folias legally. Now you're asking for confirmation on your belief that folias committed crimes. There is a difference. I was simply giving you a hint that there are more careful ways of wording your question.

[Torsten]

There is one thing people could never fault Julian on and that is the openness and honesty of his actions. In contrast there are people who secretly harvested endangered species while ranting publically against others who were also doing it. If you want to know what Julian did you can probably just ask him to clarify or look back through the forums. We gave up a long time ago trying to stop him from incriminating himself, but there is no need to do it for him [as mindperformer requests].

And no, I think it would be unfair to say that it was just about the money. There are very few people involved in DMT who would be doing it JUST for the money. The process of making it and sharing it takes on a life of its own after a while in a snowball fashion. The logical conclusion for some in that position is to then start covering their costs via sales. And before you know it that aspect of it overtakes everything else and it is no longer about just covering costs. I know a lot of people dislike the fact that there are people who made a lot of money from acacias, but to be honest I can't see a problem with that if the process is ethical. It's supply and demand, and I think the wider availability has been an overall good thing.

Most of this has been said before and I thought probably didn't need to be said again anytime soon, however Julian has invited such commentary as a result of announcing his book publication and his statements at entheongaia. While phyllode went too far and broad in her attack in this thread I feel that there is some merit to looking back at these issues. Although i doubt the outcome will be any different than before.

Julian has written on these forums about how he enjoyed the lifestyle of limousines and jetsetting for a while, and a lot of people find that wrong. I don't. The work to achieve this is very hard and risky [both in terms of personal freedom and OH&S] and I don't see a problem with luxuries as reward for the efforts. After all ANYONE could have gone out into the bush and done the same thing, but people are inherently lazy so they don't [but then whinge when someone else profits from their desires].

My problem is purely about the sources and the ethics. People who take rare or endangered species from the wild for their personal [and often exuberant] financial gain are despicable in my opinion. I have always maintained this position with Julian, so this will not come as a surprise to him.

[2Deep2Handle]

I care not the motivation! If you didnt grow it...leave it alone.

Did whole trees(that were not your own) ever die as a result of your actions folias? If not....harvest away......if so....bad karma for you

Ive got a bunch of obtuse, floribunda and accuminata coming along nicely, that I will one day harvest(as sustainably as possble too)

Use the trees in the wild as a source of seed and grow your own FFS!

You might actually learn about the plants and trees, as well as the alkaloids in them!

Do you care for plants folias or only the drugs in them?

[mindperformer]

@ ballzac: I didn't think on crimes, only wanted to understand the reason / motivation...

@ Torsten: Thanks for sharing your knowledge about julian

[Torsten]

Did whole trees(that were not your own) ever die as a result of your actions folias?

This brings up another interesting issue that I encounter on a very frequent basis. A lot of people harvest acacias in what they think is an ethical way by taking a branch here or there. Acacias are very prone to terminal fungal diseases and borers, which are much more likely to enter via injured sites. So taking a branch from 5 different trees is probably far more damaging in the long term than cutting down one whole tree. The branch method might make the harvester feel better about himself because he is not aware of the likely death sentence he has cast on all those trees, but he has actually likely done far more damage than the person who took a whole tree.

As for your question, I think that was already answered. It's not really possible to cut down a tree in a National Park without killing it and it is certainly not possible to own a tree in a NP.

[mutant]

I find that this T's point is worth underlining - that folias often appeals to some kind of superior spirituality of his or plant spirits communication us inferior logical beings are not capable of grasping , when confronted in a dialogue. Appealing to owns authority. Its pretty, I must admit, pretty stylish too! But not logically or other wise valid.

Previously in the thread he claimed in some point the plants appreciate his work.

A similar style, pretty bolder, is found in Reptyle.

I am a man who likes to question authority, and the notion of psychedelic theism, when certain ideological elitism claims authority on psychedelic plants matters, it always makes it questionable for me.

I find a plant appreciates the work I am doing when its healthy and happy by my cultivation work. Its true that some plants are helped/not ruined by harvesting, its the story of grasses and grazing, I think, in evolution of plants... In fact, in many occasions pruning can increase potential and yield.

That's why, in the matter in topic, I am not really sensitive when individuals harvest anything. Now, when masses do this, or the harvest is extensive and systematic , especially over small populations, then its another thing over all.

And Yes, when I have over harvested from my plants - specially 'sensitive' plants [for propagation purpose in my occasion] , lets say cactus pups in grafts, so as to graft furthermore, often the mother plant has died - rot got in from the many and sometimes clumsy scars. Leaving many scars increases the possibilities of rot and other enemies harm a mother plant cut. I imagine this is a general rule...

This is interesting conversation.

cheers

[whitewind]

I care not the motivation! If you didnt grow it...leave it alone.

Did whole trees(that were not your own) ever die as a result of your actions folias? If not....harvest away......if so....bad karma for you

 

I am going to wade in here with a few thoughts of my own. I am not strictly opposed to wild harvesting, so long as it does not occur on a vast scale and it is done sensitively. Why is that? Because, in order for someone to be not wild harvesting, they have to own land, and the ownership of land allows them to behave in any manner they wish, however inappropriate it might be. Also, when land is owned it is frequently cleared of native vegetation to make for whatever crop it is you want - perhaps it is acuminata, perhaps it is some non-native DMT bark plant. Why is this more acceptable than wild-harvesting? Especially in a society where not everyone can afford their own land, where the concept of non-wild harvesting also includes such environmental horrors as clearing away massive tracts of vegetation overseas to grow crops such as palm-oil? The situation is much more complex than it first appears and, legality aside, while I wouldn't be too happy if someone was making a vast fortune from wild-harvested trees, harvesting a small amount for personal, or small group, use, done in a sustainable, environmentally sensitive manner, is quite a different thing.

[mindperformer]

whitewind, I agree with you,

as Torsten already wrote, its no problem if the process of harvesting is ethical, so no rare species...

There is a difference if harvesting leaves and seeds or twigs/bark/roots

Many food plants are also harvested wild and this can be also done ethically and sustainable. Brazil nuts are collected from the wild (not always sustainable), now there are projects for sustainable harvesting wild coffee in Ethiopia and wild cocoa in Amazonia, wild tea is collected since millenia in Yunnan, wild herbs and spices are collected worldwide, Apples are collected from the wild in Kazakhstan, Cowberries, rosehips and cloudberries are mostly collected from the wild in Europe. Saltbush and the Australian desert raisin (Solanum centrale) are also wild-harvested.

Edited November 14, 2012 by mindperformer

[mindperformer]

Wild Cardamom is only harvested by the indigenes in Kerala, but very limited and controlled:

http://www.herbaria..../rohstoffe.html

Wild Cardamom seeds (recently sown):

Edited November 14, 2012 by mindperformer

[Change]

Yesterday i soaked and scarified my first Acacia Acuminata seeds.

Today they have swelled right up and are ready to plant.

I planted them in a mix consisting of coco coir / verm / sand / osmocote native mix.

If all goes well ill have some little babies to show you all soon.

[phyllode]

whitewind wrote:

Because, in order for someone to be not wild harvesting, they have to own land, and the ownership of land allows them to behave in any manner they wish, however inappropriate it might be.

If you live in an apartment block you can grow phalaris or chacruna. If you live in a Community, what about community gardens or a friend's land? I think if you didn't grow something you're on shaky ground as to what you should ethically do with it. Mining and Logging companies don't own the land, and they didn't manufacture or grow (in most cases till lately) the resources they ship off to the world for 'the good of our economy'.

And, as many have suggested, and actually Done, you can plant in-situ, on the sides of roads, or on degraded land with permission.

I'm not referring to you personally whitewind, but listening to some of the wild-harvesters' justifications reminds me exactly of Mining and Logging company arguments.

[mindperformer]

Thanks, DreamTimeBliss for returning to the acuminata ;-)

I live in an apartment and it IS possible to grow many plants like Banisteriopsis,... in front of the window

Lespedeza can be grown on the balcony

Chacruná and Acacia simplex grows in a small greenhouse (aquarium)

and acuminata and jurema grow under a energy saving- console

Edited November 16, 2012 by mindperformer

[phyllode]

Thanks mindperformer and sorry to have gotten unfairly heated at you earlier.

Indoor growing is probably the future for the majority of the planet's entheogen types.

As I understand it, the typical variant of acuminata is common, but the narrow phyllode not so, and the small seed variant actually very rare.

[whitewind]

Phyllode as soon as an individual "owns" something then we are on shaky moral ground. When a community "owns" something, this is a little better. However, this still does not take into account other species, so it is still morally a little questionable. A community should carefully and sustainable use resources, while trying to give back to the land as much as they take. Mining and logging companies are at the furthest end of the scale; they take as much resources as they can get, and don't even give much back to the community - profits go to a few individuals, and the land gets back nothing. This is not sustainability.

[mindperformer]

@ phyllode: no problem, the conversation got very emotional and I understand your viewpoint

Most widely distributed is the closely related Acacia burkittii (throughout Oz), the acuminata typical- and narrow phyllode variants are about equal distributed (in corners of WA), the acuminata/burkittii- and the small seed variant have the smallest distribution:

whitewind, I absolutely agree with you. In the Amazon for example the indians never see the rainforest as their own and most of them move on before their location gets too much exploited, what they leave back is a very fertile ground (Terra Preta). The white "land owners" in contrast see their part of the Amazon as money source and most retrieve as much as they can, until the area is completely dead, although there is also the possibility to make a national park from the owned land, to retrain the loggers to rangers in the national park, and with sustainablew tourism there even the possibility to cover the costs.

[folias]

>Before folias/Julian came along the harvesting of bark was done quite sensitively by people who cared for the local forests more than for their wallets or personal aggrandisement. It was done from obtusifolias that had fallen over in storms in NNSW state forests - often in inconvenient locations.

that's actually incorrect Torsten, they would like you to think that, but they used chainsaws. sometimes you would go walking way back when and see places where people just chainsawed down trees. they just didn't like other people knowing of "their" territory.

>Folias changed all that. It suddenly became acceptable to take live trees from conveneint locations including protected national parks. It also became acceptable to harvest species that are listed as endangered or rare.

I can't be blamed from where people take trees. many years ago, I showed some people where some trees were. (not an easy place to acces btw!) Then one of them wrote a very influential tek. But they did not treat trees as living beings, then they showed other people. People then blamed me for their damage. All this is symbolic of course, of wider sharing - which is what some didn't like.

>Discussion on this topic usually ended in 'but the trees told me it is OK to take them'.

I don't recall any such discussions or me saying any such thing.

>This 'word from a higher source' is the usual messianic bullshit any cult leader uses to justify his actions no matter how unethical they are. These forums document the discussion on that topic over the years quite well and anyone interested but not familiar with the issues can look them up.

I never said there was a word from a higher source or anything like that. personally, I think it is plain silly to compare me to a messianic cult leader.

>The same egocentric and greedy justifications are still used by the people who folias/Julian shared his knowledge with so that there is still harvesting going on of the rare A.courtti and the rare A.phlebophylla, which was previously unthinkable.

Actually, people were going up to Mt Buffallo long before I did, they just didn't say anything about it. I personally feel the phyllodes are best used for brews.

I do know people who have collected Phyllodes from Phlebophylla that have fallen down from the tree and consider that ethical. I know you don't. And that is your opinion.

>There might be some justification in this if these were the only sources of DMT, but fact is that there is plenty of obtusifolia in gippsland which is a weed there and plenty of acuminata in WA. These could be harvested extensively without any ethical issues. But this is where convenience and greed come into it. Obtusifolia from gippsland is much lower yielding than the rarer species, and aciminata is in WA which is a long way from the main markets on the east coast.

I do know people who do work in this area and a lot of them go after fallen down trees.

>I don't share the attitude of some of Julian's other critics in that the whole DMT thing should have been kept more quiet. I am all for free information exchange. But I think anyone with a slight interest and understanding of ecology would be hesitant to publicise a rare species as a source of a commodity. It is sometimes a good idea to not share everything.

I never publicised courtii. JJ did. Dennis McKenna did at his talk at the world psychedelic forum and said it contained 3% DMT.

>Julian, you said at Entheongaia that you wished people would be more forthcoming with their criticism of you rather than talking behind your back. I had to laugh at that comment but did not feel like interrupting the flow of the largely selfcongratulatory love-in panel.

Funny, you saw it that way. Other people saw it as a full on battlefield. From what people said to me later, they said they felt it was obvious that people were trying to paint a certain picture that is not actually accurate because of their own agenda.

>I am not surprised people don't confront you because your end argument is always that people have some psychic problem or that they simply do not understand your superior intellect or superior spiritual level.

You are putting words into my mouth here. but, hey maybe that actually is the case there are a lot of stupid people out there! and they don't understand anyone who is not operating from "greed, power or fame." but cannot get their shit together to attain any of those things.

>Or that the trees or aliens told you that you were right.

again, putting words into my mouth. I have no idea where you are getting this from. again, just trying to paint a picture that fills in what you want to believe wtih flat out baloney.

>Ever considered that you were just a shallow, greedy, and self absorbed bullshitter who happend to stumbled on a ticket to ride?

loving the projection!

>If you really had this higher intellect or spirituality, why is it you are so toxic to the people around you?

Sorry Torsten, you really don't know me very well at all or many of the people in my life.

>I look at the people that pass through your life and wonder what long term improvements you can claim to have brought to their lives? How many are more drug addicted, more mentally ill, more destitute, or even dead after spendign time with you?

So my best friend for many years and my girlfriend for many years didn't take their plant medicine and decided to drink alcohol and smoke massive amounts of pot. I can't be held responsible for their life choices.

I do not think its fair to point the finger at me as being the responsible factor in their life choices and how things turned out for them. We can only be responsible for ourselves. You can try to do what you can for others. In my case, I did my best to help those guys.

There are a hell of a lot of people who will tell you the good I have done for them in their life. Only a couple of them do you really know. so I think what you are saying is really quite unfair.

>DMT is an amazingly beneficial drug, but you just don't seem to realise that it is not safe for everyone. You've done some great work, but you've also really fucked up a lot fo things and a lot of people.

Well, I do not see it that way. I never said DMT was safe or suitable for everyone.

>It's a pity psychedelics did not instil you with a sense of responsibility like they do with most others. Your greatest legacy from the last decade is to show how excessive DMT consumption can mess up your moral and ethical compass. Lets hope you've got something better planned for the next decade.

hah, funny that. I don't really smoke DMT regularly and never have. More been into ayahuasca.

I should mention for people reading this that one of the Torsten's good friends (who is also dead) treated me as an enemy and spread shit about me for many years, for no real reason that I could understand, except that I was with the girl that he said that he loved.

>Julian has written on these forums about how he enjoyed the lifestyle of limousines and jetsetting for a while, and a lot of people find that wrong.

I never said that. You said that and I was like wtf? The only time I have taken a limo was when I was 14!

>I don't. The work to achieve this is very hard and risky [both in terms of personal freedom and OH&S] and I don't see a problem with luxuries as reward for the efforts. After all ANYONE could have gone out into the bush and done the same thing, but people are inherently lazy so they don't [but then whinge when someone else profits from their desires].

well, you've got something of a point there. I'm not sure I really believe in "luxuries" myself. That is really the essence of materialism.

>My problem is purely about the sources and the ethics. People who take rare or endangered species from the wild for their personal [and often exuberant] financial gain are despicable in my opinion. I have always maintained this position with Julian, so this will not come as a surprise to him.

I only know one person who has harvested endangered trees to any significant extent, and I don't think they are "in action" atm. it kind of works like that....

That doesn't mean there are not other people out there doing that. Or that there are a *lot* of people out there doing harvesting to different degrees in different ways. What Torsten is suggesting as an ethical way is what some people are already doing. I think many of those people carry out what they do in an ethical way and come at the whole thing from quite an evolved perspective. and that is the kicker, I have witnessed greedy and quite unconscious people try and do this and get fucked up from doing it. powerful plants have powerful allies.

really, like I keep saying, and Torsten has communicated here, I'm sometimes a scapegoat for a whole lot of other people who keep their mouths shut and carry on in an often deceitful way.

Julian.

[phyllode]

^You're right folias that you are being treated as a scapegoat, but you do chose a high profile.
But, and this may get removed so read it fast - people like L*ca are the culprits.

Edited April 12, 2013 by phyllode

[folias]

It doesn't worry me that people treat me like a scapegoat. I find it kind of funny actually!

And I don't think there are any single culprits per se. Thing is, heaps of people are doing this. Hundreds and hundreds. Most of them mean well, some are really onto it, but some of them have no fucking idea. 

A quite well known guy told me that he had "taken his first tree". It sounded like it felt like an initiation for him, but I felt quite uneasy about his attitude towards it.

[mindperformer]

o.m.g.

inconceivable that folias is still writing,

I find it extremely undiscerning cheek

Edited November 19, 2012 by mindperformer

[reptyle]

Just got off the cushion to God and i have been informed that you are all irreverent, irrelevent, unholy excuses for humanity, misdirected energetic expressions of the glory of living, profaned personalities unable to concentrate of purity and perfection, slaves to mass slaughter and users of old growth tree fodder, electric addiction metal mining constrictions, tied to the taste of torture for terrorists and ice baths for the masters...

and i say this in full authority... as people, epic fail. as earth, epic fail. as hyperdimensional entities, epic fail.

the seeds are saved, the spring will bring renewal... cut the trees down and maybe the conservation conversation can begin... and all ya'll hypocrits can sew ure lips together.

mutant? my arguments are always based on reason. you all meanwhile want to be cheap asses and build wooden pallet furniture. do u see how those two sentences flow together? no, ure powers of deduction then, must be failing.

[planthelper]

mp, i can understand that, you are not extreemly happy with, the discussion between phyllode and folias, taking place in your thread, but, i think those posts focus on a very special subject, which definately, needs to be talked over.

it would be difficult, to split this thread, but maybe the admin chooses to do so.

Edited November 20, 2012 by planthelper

[Change]

First signs of life

[mindperformer]

@ DreamTimeBliss: nice seedling! which variation is it? looks like the small seeded. You should keep it more dry until the first leaves emerge

@ reptyle: you were informed by your god? oh, sorry you are the Uber-shaman. In some points I agree with you, but this arrogat, spaced out text makes me puke and has nothing to do with a wise shaman

folias, your main argument is, that there are others who've done even more damage to trees, right? Sorry, but this sounds like comparing a small pile of shit to a greater...

All in all it sounds like a belittlement of your actions

Nobody is talking about FALLEN OFF phlebo- leaves, this is not the issue... but surely this is not enough for some people

And of course DMT does not per se make you a better human, but it is a catalyst and can only reinforce whats already there or what falls on fertile ground,

when an egocentric human who does not respect nature takes it, it is possible that this will be amplified.

This is the reason for shamanic rituals to come into real contact with nature and the universal energy by the ritual and with the catalyst DMT (or San Pedro, Teonanacatl, ...)

by the way... in most cultures it is not possible to become a shaman for no reason, only because one wants to be a shaman. Most even are afraid to being chosen, because its hard spiritual work.

I'm always against making somebody to a scapegoat, but I don't see you in this role, rather more a snake... maybe the ayahuasca-boa must be blaimed *lol*