Plants in Queensland?

[Psylo]

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Edited March 23, 2013 by Psylo

[altenate]

So with all that in mind, its illegal to trade N.tabaccum & N.rustica seeds then in the trading forum?

[Pat Uri]

Gidday there folks! There's a few questions there - but let's start with the easiest:-

"Is there a definitive 'list' of 'prohibited' plants in Queensland?" - Friends there ain't even a definitive list of Queensland plants!

Shamefully thousands of plants here (and animals) have yet to be catalogued, let alone their phytochemistry discovered.

(Same goes for my tribe the Byellee)

To declare such a thing is to announce to one and all a shopping list of drugs to be found in your own backyard without control.

I have, you have, the police have - everyone has - something that with or without their knowledge is illegal on their property. Be it the Psylocybe cubensis spores yet to grow, the ephedrine in Sida (Queensland Hemp) to the canetoad under the verandah.

The only way to rationalise it is to wait until you make a "preparation" and then an admission - remember onus probandus.

Technically a birthday cake is an illegal drug in Queensland - always makes me "high" when I ingest some.

Queensland drug law ain't "black-and-white" it's fractal.

Congratulate yourselves, forum, as Australia's highest authorities on the subject.

Tobacco? Well there the powers-that-be have (forgive this very colourful phrase) really "tripped on their own long dicks and f*cked themselves up the a*se when they landed!" Couple a months back the police pleaded for some useful definitions so recently it is "manufactured" tobacco that is the bust. N.spp becomes "manufactured" when it is cut or sprayed with casing sauce - polyhydric alcohols and monosaccharide. They're even trying to make sauce a bust seizing the molasses used for mu'assel.

The law is a total chaotic mess - hence I import rather than get into the shitshow. The farmer gets 80 cents a kilo (and pays tax), the ATO get $17 a packet and the consumer gets lung diseases.

Stand your ground, folks - don't say a word - if the cops see something illegal, they'll say something and then they can jolly well prove it.

Oh - and DON'T smoke tobacco! That shit'll kill you!

[Pat Uri]

I'm having a debate with PhaemonsDog - but can anyone think of any other psychoactive plant, other than tobacco, where growing the plant without license is unlawful but possessing the pure, refined alkaloid isn't?

(THE ABOVE IS WRONG AND ANTIQUATED INFORMATION CONSULT CURRENT LAWS - POSSESSION OF NICOTINE AND ITS SALTS BY UNLICENSED PERSONS IS ILLEGAL)

Edited November 23, 2012 by Pat Uri

[Pat Uri]

In Australia possession or trade of tobacco seeds is prohibited by law - same as brewing beer above 3% alcohol.

The tobacco companies supply the contracted farmer with a determined number of seedlings to crop. If any die they are returned and replaced with newies. Then, under supervision, it is "sprayed with some shit", harvested, "sprayed with some other shit", hung, flued or baled (under direction) to appropriate moisture content and "sprayed with more shit" for the companies to collect. The farmer does not own the crop at any stage - if they want to smoke tobacco they have to buy it like anyone else.

As far as N.tabacum goes there are thousands of varieties - no-one has ever counted - and new ones evolve all the time in other countries. In 20 generations you can breed anything that suits your conditions.

All of this is about tobacco to be smoked. Any one can cast seeds, but growing, cultivating, curing it into something is an art and a science. (unless you "spray it with some shit")

Then getting that something to actually burn is yet harder again. Harder still is fixing the nicotine content.

Some look like tobacco in the pictures. Oriental varieties don't.

Basically the layman is stuffed. I notice wiki tell you everything else BUT manufacturing - same as the rest of the net. Only sweet cannabis grows easily and cures easily to something smokeable - but none of us would do that!

I've heard that cannabis averages about $300 an ounce and has for decades even - though it is five times more potent. In the same time your average cigarette has gone from 2mg of nicotine to 0.5mg, but is five times more expensive.

Stop destroying yourself and the planet with smoking tobacco - import it, chew or snuff it and not pay a cent in tax or profit the Royal Families of Big Tobacco.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Pat Uri

[space cadet swami]

Just making sure you get your point across there Pat...lol.

[Pat Uri]

Yes thanks for that Spacey! There's some sort of echo in here. By the way - you serious about wanting Calea seeds? I've got a bloody lawnfull of the little buggers - them, Heimia, Eryngium etc. etc. I was hoping to palm them off to Psylo once he gets his hail nets up. (I cover my tracks well - huh?)

[Pat Uri]

"After 4 years of my incessant pushing the ATO and arguing with the legal department to define what 'tobacco' is they finally made a ruling a couple of years ago that defines it as N. tabacum, N. rustica and I think they also included N alata [sorry need to look it up]. That's it. All other Nicotiana species are now legal to grow thanks to my efforts." quoted from Mr T above

Many thanks Mr T! box of cigars coming your way! But still very confusing and certainly whatever it is ATO are smoking I'll have some too! I sort of understand how N. rustica (2n 4n) made the list (once grown here as insecticide - but only coldest Russia and India make tobacco from it - usually sisha and it has the same chromosome number as ancestoral N.tabacum tabacum P1 - still potential pathogen host) - but surely not N.alata which is the garden ornamental?

Could it be N.sylvestris, tomentosiformis, glutinosa, debneyi, or ​longiflora? All of which have contributed to the gene pool of modern N.tabacum (8n) But there are other species, hybrids and polyploids as well. I wish I could send more information for your regard but I've probably alienated the forum anyway with this farmer's talk.

If you confirm they said N.alata then I'll contact the bastards and rip one up them. (Your name will not be mentioned.)

Deepest regards.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Pat Uri

[goneski]

Wow, the laws are so insane. I'll stick to growing fake plastic trees, or are they illegal too?

[Torsten]

I'm having a debate with PhaemonsDog - but can anyone think of any other psychoactive plant, other than tobacco, where growing the plant without license is unlawful but possessing the pure, refined alkaloid isn't?

 

It is not legal to possess nicotine, so i think your debate might be based on a false premise. Nicotine is listed in the SUSDP under one of the appendices that prohibits possession without special license. From memory same group as cyanide etc.

yeah, I knew I had that wrong about the species. It is sylvestris.

here is the ruling text:

Species of the Nicotiana genus where the leaves of that species are generally used for smoking, chewing or snuff are considered to be tobacco plants for the purposes of the Excise Act. Nicotiana tabacum, Nicotiana rusticum and Nicotiana sylvestris are tobacco plants for the purposes of the Excise Act.

Should varieties of other species of Nicotiana be developed where the leaves are generally used for smoking, chewing or as snuff then those species would also be considered tobacco plants for the purposes of the Excise Act.

I don't think there is an alcohol limit on brewed products for personal consumption. Where did you get the 3% from?

[Bigred]

a foaf reckons if you get caught with plants that contain less than 3% thc you can argue that it is hemp and then you can only be charged

with failing to license your crop

http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/26_14356.htm

[Pat Uri]

@bigred82 - how many fibres are you gonna spin in this thread?

Page Uping through the questions:-

"It's a 'plant' officer!" (plant has many legal definitions) Drug Misuse Act (Queensland) 1986(and counting) Part 5B Division 1 S46 - well worth a read - 0.5%-1.0% industrial cannabis; 1.0%-3.0% Class B research material, >3.0% Class A research material.

You and I are stuffed - just keep away from the shit - it'll put you in prison. The licenses will, no doubt, only be given to retiring senior police officers, lawyers and politicians as their little "nest egg" - much like "legal" brothel licenses have been.

[Pat Uri]

@Torsten:- Much obliged Amazing Mr T - you truly are a champion of the people! (By golly, I'm so glad you are "one of us" and on our side - you'd be a formidable opponent!)

(THE FOLLOWING IS WRONG AND ANTIQUATED INFORMATION CONSULT CURRENT LAWS - POSSESSION OF NICOTINE AND ITS SALTS BY UNLICENSED PERSONS IS ILLEGAL)

"Nicotine" - 100% pharmaceutical grade - is Schedule 7 - "A poison of exceptional danger or for which toxicological information is incomplete or unknown; which may require special precautions in manufacture, handling, storage or use or special individual regulations regarding labelling or availability" or so it says on the label here. (Sozz - I'm not going to give too much away as 'they''ll easily figure out exactly who I am as there isn't many of us) BUT - "it is not tobacco" (I kid you not!) and being S7 does not specifically prohibit its importation, blah! blah! see Australian Customs Service (ACS), except when it is:-

"Nicotine" - 3% or less pharmaceutical grade - Schedule 6 - "A poison that must be available to the public but is of a more hazardous or poisonous nature than those classified in Schedule 5" blah! blah! see Standard for the Uniform Scheduling of Medicines and Poison (SUSMP) when labelled and packed for the treatment of animals (that's you PhaemonsDog!), except when it is:-

As above S6 approved by the Department of Health and Aging (DOHA) for electronic cigarettes, and is not labelled as a therapeutic agent - then see Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) -, and for the States to create their own domestic regulation of sale, supply and possession, see Queensland Police Service (QPS), except when it is:-

In quantities greater than $1000 that attract GST see Australian Taxation Office (ATO), except when it is:-

"Black Leaf 40" 40% Industrial Nicotine Sulfate - a natural, biodegradable insecticide unapproved for general use in Australia (we gotta stick to organophosphates) but by licensed pest controllers to dilute and incorporate with surfactants, for use on tobacco crops, in quantities >2g to be used for this purpose by operators who need not be licensed (That's you too PsDog!), except when it is:-

Present in tobacco! (start from the top again)

No point quoting me on any of this folks - it changes constantly and it depends which head of the hydra you are talking to:- ACS, AQS, SUSMP, DoHA, QPS, AFP, ATO, TGA or SBYMP (some bloke you met at the pub).

I do know the cops will confiscate it - but as far as laying charges (>2g), they're in a much confusion as the rest of us. They just ask if you've got any plants - that they can deal with. The feds have cracked down on free commercial samples of Black Leaf 40 imports - that were, allegedly, being diverted to e-juice and beefing up sisha. EEErrrgh! And you can't make your own bio-friendly insecticide spray from cigarette butts and soapy water - protected industry.

(THE ABOVE IS WRONG AND ANTIQUATED INFORMATION CONSULT CURRENT LAWS - POSSESSION OF NICOTINE AND ITS SALTS BY UNLICENSED PERSONS IS ILLEGAL)

But you are exactly right in comparing it to cyanide Mr T - its another Multi-International Corporation, older and more powerful than any Government, that is 'self regulated', writes it's own rules and is well controlled from us mere mortals. Except in Gladstone Harbour - right ORISHA? Actually I think they're the same Royal Family. So please don't call me "Prince" -there already is one and high treason to think otherwise. Anyways any mistakes they make are pretty much Crown vs. Crown.

Sorry there is no clear answer to this one - the tobacco industry and governments have been playing chasey with eachother for centenaries. Nothing to do with producing a quality product for the consumer - but everything to do with collecting as much excise as they can.

So remember smokers - CONSUME. BE SILENT. DIE.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Pat Uri

[Torsten]

Nicotine is S7, but it is also appendix J when in S7 :Not to be available except to authorised or licensed persons.

[Pat Uri]

@Torsten - thanks for the clarification on what N.spp are "tobacco" - smoked, chewed or snuffed - I note they still imply nicotine is one thing and tobacco is another i.e. tobacco need not possess nicotine to be tobacco, possession of nicotine is legal if it's in tobacco, possession of nicotine is not legal, but not illegal (much like MDMA in the 70s - or incense and bathsalts now) see schedule for exemptions, etc.

The law does my head in - really. I'll stick to working for a living and plants...lovely, innocent, honest plants - no argument from them!

Excellent - N. tabacum x rustica x sylvestris does make perfect sense - whether or whether not they have the gene expression to accumulate nicotine.

When you said N. alata I thought they were having a go at you, or I was missing out on something! Never argue politics or religion - and for me tobacco is both.

Yep! - they are the indigenous New World species that the Indians carefully selected to maintain their pedigree and nicotine production. Forum folk - those 3 are a bit like C. sativa x indica x ruderalis but why I think that will help you understand better, I do not know.

[Pat Uri]

Nicotine is also schedule 4 - nicotine patches, chewing gum, etc.

Why it isn't sched 8 - dangerous drug of addiction - I'll never know!

Edited November 23, 2012 by Pat Uri

[Psylo]

x

Edited March 23, 2013 by Psylo

[Pat Uri]

Ain't nothing new it that, Psylo! They're just saying "Gee! we forgot to mention sylvestris" the rest is pretty much the contract.

All they are saying is do your work and hand it over - we'll 'manufacture' it and make the profit!

Hardly a full outline - they don't describe 'manufacture' to be the cutting, shredding or saucing of the material.

Where did I get the 3% alcohol limit? It was in the Cooper's instruction manual - to my amazement! Hence why they only provide 1.7kg of sugar for the 22L kit. The disclaimer being if you add more sugar - therefore higher alcohol - we are not responsible.

I found it a very quaint law! I'll try to find it.

@SYNeR your plastic tree MAY be illegal - if they have used 1,4 butadiol as a plasticiser!

[Bigred]

thanks psylo great read

[Pat Uri]

I'm curious if ATO left snus out on purpose? Or maybe the Australian Oxford Dictionary doesn't have that entry yet....

But at last we know who the definitive Ruling Authority is - a f***ing kid's school book!

Edited November 23, 2012 by Pat Uri

[Pat Uri]

But fear not nicotine-heads...there is still one orifice left!

[Bigred]

any way back to the topic has anyone ever been charged under qld law for cacti

[Pat Uri]

Folks I tremble with shame amongst you all! I have led you all astray! Nicotine is DEAD ILLEGAL ain't it! (except under the exemptions) The advice I have given you previously is complete old hat! I apologise to one and all - and especially to Torsten!

(make that 2 boxes of cigars!)

I forget there's an outside world out there sometimes (and that there is one law for industry - and another law for everyone else!)

Un-bloody-believable! They have really left you to your fate, haven't they! And are going to extract every cent out of you until you do cark it!

I wonder if ATO and ACS run around picking up all the cigarette butts? Good God! Whatever you do don't let your tobacco in contact with alkali!

Cactii? No - but with this nicotine (sulfate, citrate, maleate or ion-exchange resin) scenario I ain't about to find out!

(But decades ago the best collection of peyote was had by the President of the Cactii and Succulent Fanciers Club Rockhamption and he was a senior sergeant!)

I am so ashamed of myself!...Shame! Shame! Shame! I swear it wasn't like this a couple of years ago. Please forgive me!

(Now where is that bloody dog?)

Deepest apologies!

[Pat Uri]

I have never been so embarassed in my life (Well I have actually. In fact quite a few times)

The information about nicotine's legality I blabbed on about is quite dated. I cannot believe the Government's stance - someone has got to be p***ing in someone's pocket - fo shizzle!

Possession of nicotine is only legal, outside testing laboratories, manufacturers and tobacco farms, if it is in legal taxed 'tobacco' - no specifications to % or how it got there! Exactly WHAT do they think is in their 'tobacco' anyway? - vitamins?

Torsten was current and exactly right - and just too darn polite and generous when it comes to old, senile farts like me!

Now PhaemonsDog and I are going on a little ride to my bottom paddock - just the two of us - but only one is coming back.

And when I do I am changing my password.

I am so sorry to everyone.

Regards - Pat.

[Torsten]

hey Pat, don't stress. You were more more up to date than most ;)

I'd be very interested in that 3% thing though a I have never come across anything like it. eg, I am certain it is legal to make wines for personal consumption and they would definitely be over 3%.