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Mandrake preparation

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Hi - last weekend I went to the winter fest at Katoomba and a friend of mine gave some mandrake root to try. He told me to keep it at home as a charm or smoke some of it.

Do you guys reckon that tea would work better than smoking. Is there any other way to consume it ?

Apologies if this has been asked before but Icould not find anything on mandrake tea.

I read a little bit about this plant and it's history and legends are pretty dam crazy

Cheers

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Never had a tea so i cant shed any light sorry bud, but ive powdered it to the best of my ability and then smoked it. Got pretty good results, it wasnt intense or overpowering. But it has a nice feel to it. Im not sure if this was because of smoking rather than a tea, or because of the dosage. But like anything id say ingesting it will be alot stronger and last alot longer. Try both :)

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dont know anything about that one. thanks the info, will look into it. as for the katoomba winter fest, bugger, i miss that place. miss climbing those big walls more than anything else! rock-climbing in the blueys... AWESOME =)

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I don't know how much you know about mandrake, but the active constituents are tropane alkaloids, the same class of chemicals found in belladonna and datura (jimson weed). The effects of these drugs are not to be taken lightly. The lethal dose is not significantly higher than the active dose when compared to most chemicals of interest to this community, and if you're using plant material, that makes it difficult to dose safely. High, sub-lethal doses are also, by most accounts, not desirable, and are said to lead to erratic and potentially dangerous behaviour.

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oh no, not tropane's lol. turn it into art i say =) im makin a peyote ring at the moment.(out of silver) in fact i need to get all this in one place to show you guys / girls the stuf i like to make. thinking about making more earth based shaman jewelry as well as my silver and glass creations (unique glass creations).

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I don't know how much you know about mandrake, but the active constituents are tropane alkaloids, the same class of chemicals found in belladonna and datura (jimson weed). The effects of these drugs are not to be taken lightly. The lethal dose is not significantly higher than the active dose when compared to most chemicals of interest to this community, and if you're using plant material, that makes it difficult to dose safely. High, sub-lethal doses are also, by most accounts, not desirable, and are said to lead to erratic and potentially dangerous behaviour.

 

Shit. That's a bit scary mate. I just got a few grams chopped root material.. Would that be sub lethal ?

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smoke it, never ever orally ingest these alkaloids. dont smoke more often than once a week, or the tropanes will build up in your system and potentially lead to full blown delerium/death. even better, don't use it if you aren't sure of how. i only offer advise for harm reduction, i do not reccomend any such actions.

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Shit. That's a bit scary mate. I just got a few grams chopped root material.. Would that be sub lethal ?

 

I really don't know, and you have a big responsibility to yourself to do a lot of research if, and before, you plan on trying. I agree with dionysus that it's probably never worth ingesting these plants orally. If you really want to try tropanes for the sake of trying tropanes, you are probably better off using motion sickness tablets. At least then you can be confident that you know the dose you are having and can experiment with gradual increases if you choose to. Never redose when you think you don't feel anything. Tropanes have a reputation for sneaking up on you. Don't use a plant just because you happen to have some in your possession.

Personally, I would advise against it. Smoking a very small amount of brugmansia leaf/flower is very good to combat nausea, and I would guess that mandrake could be used for similar purposes, but make sure you do a lot of research on dosage before trying that if you choose to. I would not suggest using any tropanes as a means to get 'high', and have personally not met anyone who advocates it.

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Try both :)

 

i retract my previous statement lol

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your friend who gave it to you knows what he is saying. He said you smoke it so you smoke it.

you are asking about ingesting it and insisting on it after ballzacs answer. only because of this, you should NOT be smoking it either - maybe.

how old are you?

I know a couple occasions where a dude was never the same after eating some mandrake root

mandrake is not very different from DATURA. DATURA. Does this ring a fucking bell?

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ballzac

I would not suggest using any tropanes as a means to get 'high', and have personally not met anyone who advocates it.

 

G'sUp. Probably heard of around 5 trusted first hand experiences ingested in various ways, none would do it again.

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not making a recommendation but, I would do tropanes again if the circumstances were right, I find natural tropanes fun and funny, haven't done them in a while, probably won't in the immediate future, small to moderate doses (about a half a handful of dried leaves in tea, my dreams recommended that dose years ago ) (*edit - to me specifically and no one else, and no one should infer a recommended dose from this)) of brugmasia in controlled circumstances, with nobody to answer to for a few days is fun and intriguing imho though haven't done it in a while because of my responsibilities, Large doses in uncontrolled circumstances not at all fun (I have survived a Naive teenage megadose (related herbal book didn't have dosage), nearly half a shopping bag of leaves and flowers, boiled in a pot, first had a cup, was trying to outwit my mocking reflection for 20 minutes before questioning why it wasn't working, and finishing off the rest, this experience made me go straight for 6 months). I haven't properly researched this subject just giving my two cent's, I don't know what the long term and short term dangers are, Do small doses cause permanent damage?

Edited by BabaBudh
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i remember asking the same question a few years ago, and received good responses back then, it was reccomended to me to smoke match head size and wait some time before smoking it again, great for pain relief i also remember tst tantra posting a few posts about it

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your friend who gave it to you knows what he is saying. He said you smoke it so you smoke it.

you are asking about ingesting it and insisting on it after ballzacs answer. only because of this, you should NOT be smoking it either - maybe.

how old are you?

I know a couple occasions where a dude was never the same after eating some mandrake root

mandrake is not very different from DATURA. DATURA. Does this ring a fucking bell?

 

I understand your frustration. No one here wants to see anyone get hurt. But I think you're being a bit unfair. I can see how someone who is unaware of the contents of a plant, and new to the scene, can be ignorant of the dangers and ask what seem to most of us to be dangerous and stupid questions. Blas contacted me by PM to thank me for offering potentially life-saving advice, and he understands why we're being so cautious about it. His friend may know what he is saying, but he was very reckless to offer any sort of tropane containing material without explaining in detail the chemicals contained within and the potential dangers of them.

Blas did the right thing by coming here and asking for advice before consuming, and this has possibly saved him from great harm.

my dreams recommended that dose years ago

I prefer to use science rather than dreams to work out what a good dose is. It's all fine to play around with fanciful ideas of 'plant spirits' telling you how much to take when you're talking about mescaline or psilocybin, but when it comes to tropanes, you are better off using a system that can reliably predict the effects of a dose rather than relying on superstition, lest natural selection take its course.

Edited by ballzac
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I'm glad Blas is being cautious, I'm not familiar with Solanaceae compounds as comestibles, but all anecdotal reports I've heard from experienced partakers suggest they need to be treated with utmost respect

Store the material, freeze it in a double ziplock bag with the air squeezed out of it if it's powdered . You can choose to take it at a later time when you know more and have an experienced and sober sitter and in the meantime learn more to help you make your decision

There are many other compounds with a wider margin of error available to play with. It's not like the world's gunna run out of drugs any time soon, you can afford to wait :)

+3 to Blas for coming here to ask, and + evenmore to those who gave good advice about safety, it's what makes me proud of this place

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I prefer to use science rather than dreams to work out what a good dose is. It's all fine to play around with fanciful ideas of 'plant spirits' telling you how much to take when you're talking about mescaline or psilocybin, but when it comes to tropanes, you are better off using a system that can reliably predict the effects of a dose rather than relying on superstition, lest natural selection take its course.

 

This is a shamanistic website right? For thousands of years this is how tribal and ancient cultures explored nature, dreams and plants

Half a handful of dried leaves is hardly a dangerous superstitious dose for my dreams to recommend to me personally when I am experienced with the plant,, maybe you'd have a point if the dream had said to shove a flower up my bum, anyway

declaring it superstition is philosophical scientism not scientific position, to which i disagree, that which has been manufactured chemically is scientifically different from that which has been produced from a plant

science is in it's adolesence, nature has stood the test of time (and potentially a result of Omni-Science). Recommending car sickness tablets over the leaf of a plant is declaring that a plant is devoid of anything but it's dead chemical constituents. It is common sense to assume that an organic product is more in harmony with the body than a synthetic one. The consciousness of the plant is not studied under a microscope.

Organically derived chemicals are scientifically very different in effect than synthetic ones. ,just an opinion without the financial backing of multinational drug companies.

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Guys thanks heaps for the help. This is the second time someone in this forum told me "that can be lethal".

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32437

To me the good quality advice offered here is what makes this place so dammed good. There is so much misinformation on the net and that makes things really hard and dangerous for the run of the mill newbie.

Resolution: store the mandrake root in the freezer until further knowledge is gained. Continue the shamanic experimentation with other compounds.

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I am sorry if I was harsh, but I was fair I think....

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It is common sense to assume that an organic product is more in harmony with the body than a synthetic one. The consciousness of the plant is not studied under a microscope.

Organically derived chemicals are scientifically very different in effect than synthetic ones. ,just an opinion without the financial backing of multinational drug companies.

 

LOL. This anti-scientific, "BigPharma" conspiracy theory BS is what makes threads like this dangerous -- offering advice based on little more than anecdotes..

I agree with ballzac. Stick with whatever controlled studies you find. If you're going to ingest a potentially lethal substance -- at least do it with a scientific understanding?

http://scholar.googl...=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

http://scholar.googl...l=en&as_sdt=0,5

http://scholar.googl...en&as_sdt=0%2C5

Here's an article relating to poisoning / toxicity: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15563658208992510

Edited by SYNeR
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LOL. This anti-scientific, "BigPharma" conspiracy theory BS is what makes threads like this dangerous -- offering advice based on little more than anecdotes..

 

Specifically what are you calling unscientific and what is your scientific reference.

There is nothing anti-scientific about it, you are the one who chooses to offer no scientific reasoning.

It's so easy to hide behind the term 'scientific' without backing it up with any (let alone unbiased) study.

Like when a cop once said to me 'drugs are bad, scientist's have proven it'

(maybe they should stop inventing them)

I specifically stated I am not making a recommendation, It was my first comment.

When speaking of my dreams, I was referring only to my own experience, I am sorry that people are reading it as recommendation.

Since everyone seems to conclude I am making a dosage recommendation in relation to brugmansia, let me point you to the posts of PowerfulMedicine, shortcomings not withstanding and while not perfect is as a good a place to start as any.

https://www.dmt-nexu...amp;t=20440&p=2

Your argument against my comments contains no substance, it is simply argument from authority without reference or specifics.

Just ad hominem catch phrases (LOL, unscientific, BS).

My only implied advice is natural is better than synthetic.

My 'conspiracy theory' , if you want to call it that, is just a simple conclusion that financial incentive is likely to encourage deception, do you disagree?

Since natural products can not be patented there is little financial incentive to encourage their use, or fund research.

There is plenty of room for potential danger with synthetic delerients, they are much easier to take continuously without impediment, with more inclination to take them day after day, and being a delerient there is more probability of forgetting how many pills you have had, and helping yourself to unlimited pills, so if you do choose the pill option make sure they are not easily accessible while delirious.

I don't think you will find many traditional shamen recommending pills over plants, nor do I think you will find people switching from buds to marinol in the near future.

Intelligent advice not scaremongering, is the best path to harm reduction even with such a powerful delerient, kids will be kids, and so long as the plant is available, people will take it, and if there is nothing but scaremongering for information, many will dive in the deep end blindly as many already have without any understanding.

quoting Ray Thorpe's introduction to Happy High Herbs

'Nobody craves for natural cocoa leaf tea as they do for cocaine, ....natural poppy tea as they do for heroin ... natural ephedra tea as they do for pseudo ephedrine .... herbal E vs E ... tobacco vs manufactured ... natural sweetners vs refined and synthetic....caffeine vs chemical caffeine....

...... Addiction is caused from man's adulteration of natural herbs in order to isolate and/or potentiate nature's active ingredients.

whole plants generally contain natural counter balances to reduce the chemical imbalances that result in side effects, addiction, and come down....'

(end)

heroin used to be sciences answer to opium addiction.

Google natural vs synthetic vitamins / drugs

http://www.doctorsre.../articles4.html

(check out Table 3. Physical and Structural Differences, and Table 4. Comparison of Certain Biological Effects of Food and Non-Food Vitamins)

http://www.nutrition...alsynthetic.pdf

(check out the examples)

.... in summary... you can't repair and rebuild a living body with dead chemicals. It simply isn't possible.

Edited by BabaBudh
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Neither SYNeR or I made any positive claims, so there is nothing we need to support with evidence.

You may not have made a recommendation, but you have to realise what people who are not familiar with tropanes may infer from your post, that they are harmless enough that we can essentially guess a dose ("about half a handful of leaves"). I'm sure there is plenty of research showing that the toxic effects of a substance are dependent on dosage. If you're claiming that dreams are a good way of ascertaining this dose, then you would need to provide evidence. If you're not claiming that, then good, we have no disagreement there.

The main aim when discussing potentially lethal drugs should be harm minimisation. We are discussing this in a public forum, and many people of all levels of knowledge will read the posts in this thread. It is important to think about how others might read your post, and how that might affect people's actions. It's not that there is no safe way to dose using leaves, but taking a stab at it is not one of them. Yes, there are many dangers with these chemicals no matter what form they are in, but most are going to be present no matter what. Using carefully metered doses prepared by a pharmaceutical company will eliminate the substantial danger of having an unknown dose. There may or may not be significant qualitative differences between using leaves and using pharmaceutical preparations. The alkaloid profile is different, so there is bound to be a difference on some level. But you certainly haven't made a case for solanaceous plants being better than pharmaceutical tropanes by citing articles about vitamins that don't appear to even be peer-reviewed anyway.

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check out Table 3. Physical and Structural Differences

 

post-1298-0-42691900-1341219393_thumb.jp

What is this picture and where is it from? There is no caption or reference for the images. The images on the right look suspiciously like scanning electron micrographs. The ones on the left look like optical micrographs. This would mean that the difference in magnification is probably several hundred times. This would explain why, as claimed in the 'article', the ones on the right appear to have larger particle size.

This is why we have the process of peer-review. This guy has probably found some pictures online that seem to support what he's saying, made his own interpretations without knowing the context of the different images or having an understanding of why they look the way they do, and then added them to his article. This kind of stuff gets torn to shreds in peer review.

vitamins.jpg

vitamins.jpg

Edited by ballzac
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What about natural anthrax? Better than the synthetic stuff?

I posted links to peer-reviewed medical journals. You posted nothing more than anecdotes.

Why are you quoting Ray Thorpe? Has he studied pharmacology, psychopharmacology? Does he have a relevant degree?

Most importantly, is his "work" peer-reviewed?

Again, the other link posted is laughable -- a naturopath.

Your point about shamanism doesn't make any sense. Many shamanistic cultures did (and still do) indulge in both animal and human sacrifices and believe

a plethora of stupid things, so your point is moot.

On the other hand, look at how Science and Western Medicine have drastically increased life expectancy / decreased mortality rates, cured disease..

Also realise how burden of proof works.. Although, if you're going to talk about plant spirits and anything else unfalsifiable, I suppose we've hit an intellectual brick wall.

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Also realise how burden of proof works..

Neither SYNeR or I made any positive claims, so there is nothing we need to support with evidence.

 

Both arguments from ignorance.

not that I agree with the 'negative claims don't have to be proved' position

I think you have both made many positive assertions

Such as

If you really want to try tropanes, you are probably better off using motion sickness tablets.

That I have fanciful superstitious ideas,unscientific,am a Conspiracy Theorist

Implied that natural is NOT better than synthetic, and that is no evidence to the contrary, or to logic

Implied that a chemical is the same whether it has been synthesized or extracted

That dreams are a dangerous source of information or guidance

Although, if you're going to talk about plant spirits and anything else unfalsifiable, I suppose we've hit an intellectual brick wall

I have never mentioned plant spirits, I mentioned the consciousness of plants and I mentioned dream advice, I don't mind if you believe in these things or not, just don't claim to not believe is the scientific position. Science is neutral.

What about natural anthrax? Better than the synthetic stuff?

 

Last I heard nobody has ever deliberately ingested anthrax (or metallica), so is not really a naturally occurring hypothetical.

Can you name a naturally occurring example, where a drug or food was improved by synthesizing it?

But you certainly haven't made a case for solanaceous plants being better than pharmaceutical tropanes by citing articles about vitamins that don't appear to even be peer-reviewed anyway.

Amongst the many references is 2 studies published in the new england journal of medicine

Again can you name an example, where a drug or food was improved by synthesizing it? (besides the controlled dosage advantage)

It seems to me the examples given are relevent in that they show that natural chemicals have better effects than synthetic ones, and are fairly well referenced, how do you know they were not peer reviewed?, do you have access to any articles claiming the opposing position on these nutrients?

If you could show me a completely conclusive study which compares synthetic scopalamine to natural scopalamine by all means present it, but as it is unlikely to exist (who would fund it?), we only have comparison to refer too. If these studies we see that the synthetic product can be toxic, and with no study showing that a synthetic chemical can have greater life giving properties, we can infer that that the toxicity of it's active levels are reasonably possible to be increased by it being synthetic

You may not have made a recommendation.

correct

but you have to realise what people who are not familiar with tropanes may infer from your post, that they are harmless enough that we can essentially guess a dose ("about half a handful of leaves")..

already conceded and redirected in my previous post. This should have been the whole of your reply to start with.

I have now edited the original post to make that doubly clear. I stated I had not done the research and was only talking from experience. Also stated earlier that I had survived a much larger dose (MUCH), and seems to me , a half a handful , though a little flippant not a particularly large dose,

probably quite small when compared with all the trip reports and beginning low dosages recommended or spoken of by others on forums that I have so far read and people I know, and perhaps a ball park figure is better than no idea whatsoever (and again I am absolutely NOT making a dosage recommendation, The problem you guys have is with my source of information ie a dream, but this needs to be contextualised. My original posts did have many warnings and disclaimers.

Mostly the arguments presented are based on a carpet sweep of all the points and references I have provided as having no authority, the authority of the authors in my mind is not as important as the legitamacy of the points made.There are 75 references to what seem to me to be legitimate scientific articles, please show the evidence that they are not. The 'laughable naturopath' has a PHD.

What is this picture and where is it from? There is no caption or reference for the images.

the references are given in the paragraph below (correction there is no references given and I couldn't find the source), but you may be correct.

Your point about shamanism doesn't make any sense. Many shamanistic cultures did (and still do) indulge in both animal and human sacrifices and believe a plethora of stupid things, so your point is moot.

Because Shamanism has dark corners is not legitimate reason to dismiss everything that it represents, just as you would not represent scientists with the atomic bomb.

On the other hand, look at how Science and Western Medicine have drastically increased life expectancy / decreased mortality rates, cured disease.

I don't have the facts and figures but I can safely assume it was no great jump to improve upon the middle ages, and was achievable with better nutrition and hygiene and abundance. There are many cultures ancient and modern which live longer lives than the average westerner, and many 3rd world countries with very low life spans. Many new diseases are arising, atom bombs and wars, environmental disasters etc.

I am not opposed to science I am opposed to scientism.

Besides the issue of dosage, is there a single claim I have made, which either of you has a link to peer reviewed study, which disproves a single thing I have said?

Edited by BabaBudh

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I'm late to this thread, and therefore the whole point is moot, but my advice mirrors Ballzac's. Mandrake is not a party drug, just as so many of the nightshades are not. The very name nightshade itself should ring bells...

Yes, as a family these are powerful medicinals, both in the Western sense and in the shamanic sense. But anyone who uses them should know exactly why they're using them, quite apart from how to use them.

[self-edit]

Good on you Blas, for asking. Yes, you'll meet a few people who indulge with no (apparent) ill effects, but often it's simple luck in a game of tropane Russian roulette. And like roulette, the more times you play the greater the overall risk. Tropane nightshades are not forgiving. Mostly, they're not even nice.

Please, don't anyone get me wrong - I love this family of plants. It's why I am so concerned that people don't go around risking themselves and others. The nightshades have a place in our world, and I would hate to see them become officially planta non grata just because all of the other witches in the ethno world have already been burned, leaving nothing else for the tabloid/beaurocratic lynch mob to target except for the next over-hyped 'Great Evil'.

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