The Only Way to Stop Illegal Immigration

[Halcyon Daze]

If I was a genuine asylum seeker I'd try so damn hard to make it to a safe country. And I reckon I'd make it too, the only problem would be the wife and kids getting us caught.

Poor buggers. Give 'em a fair go, we have towns drying up all over this country.

[Jox]

Do you know what illogical means?

To have a discussion about immigration & for me to ask were are you from is a resonable question.

Now you are trying to tell me what my logic is. How the fuck would you know?

Nice way to end your sentience as well 'get lost'

for someone who thinks they've got logic. Your pretty shit at having a discussion.

[Evil Genius]

but have you got a solution?

Things are a little bit more complicated than this. Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem for some countries. But so is being raped, robbed and killed because of your religious beliefs or simply because you were unlucky enough to be born at a part of the world that isnt as safe, rich and organized as our western world. Its always easy for people to blame Immigrants for the fact that they are trying to get in other countries because of the situation there. There´s some insane poverty going on in many countries and most people who write about "forcefully" throw them out the country arent really qualified to judge about how to solve political decisions of that dimension. You know, just think about WWII. So you would have deported jews that tried to flee into your country back to germany right into their certain death? If your answers yes, then you wouldnt be any better than the people who pulled the trigger. If your answers no, then please tell me where the difference is? As an example: Its very easy to ask a german today, why so few of them tried to stop the nazis back then? But its actually interesting to see that some people would make similar mistakes today and send refugees back into their certain deaths in the land they came from without actually feeling the need to somehow think about the bigger picture. Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem that needs to be adressed on a political level but not from a raging mob on the street who doesnt even differentiate between political refugees and people who are just lazy and want others to pay for em. Its obvious that some Countries cant take in any more immigrants at a certain point and i dont blame them for that because they need to care for their own people first because thats the people who keep the country running with their taxes. But its pretty hypocritical to get on the high horse after our western world is partially responsible for creating such a Low-Wage Labor and Goods Market that poor countries went on to import their goods from outside the country and are ironically ruining their own local Trading system by doing this. You know that Africans get their dried milk from europe instead of buying it on the local market because its a lot cheaper here? And by doing this, the whole area gets poorer and poorer, collecting more debts every single day. What makes us earn even more daily interest of course. Dont you think we are at least partially responsible for some countries getting poorer and poorer while ours are doing pretty good? With all of our logistical Advantages and ways to market and ship our crap right back into the third world where we make em pay for it again? Im not saying that its our personal fault that people are getting killed or policitally chased in some third world countries. But we would be damned if we wouldnt at least accept the fact that they need help instead of cursing about all these refugee boats? You know, we werent any better than people few thousand years ago at a time when the strong ones could simply take whatever they wanted or kill whoever they didnt like. Survival of the one with the biggest sword, right? We are living in a social system where one land depends on the other and the only way to solve this problem is to act solidarically on a global level. At first, people should understand that this is a GLOBAL problem and not only the problem of the land they are trying to get in. And its not the problem of THE OTHERS either. The United Nations need to make agreements about where these people can be brought to and how this can be financed. It has to be fair and no country should take in more people than any other Country. And as far as i know, thats how its been done for a long time now. I can still remember when there was war in kosovo and there were containers with people everywhere in germany. Or people from turkey, the Iraqu, you name it. It wasnt pleasant but it needed to be done. I know that we cant take in every single person who just wants a better life but i sure as hell understand WHY they do it and i dont blame them for the fact that their lives are so shitty they rather leave their family, friends and the country they grew up in behind for a better life. And in modern times like this with all of our great achievements in science and Economics, people shouldnt have to choose between escaping to another country or starving to death anymore. You know how much food is ending up on the garbage dump every single day? While we´d have enough food to feed every single person on the planet if we´d just give the food that we would regularly throw away to the people who die from hunger. But we dont. Instead we know about the problem but still throw away tons of food every single day. And as long as politicians dont work on a global plan for this, they´ll have to live with the so called illegal immigrants that are coming in their country because they should have already made some agreements with other countries about how these immigrants can be re-located in a fair and humane way. Because its actually a pretty human thing to pursuit happyness. Dont tell me you wouldnt do the very same thing if you´d live in a land thats so poor that people are starving on the street and shit. I really agree this is a global problem that needs to be adressed but it sure as hell cant be solved with populistic and antisemtic bar talk on a message board. I live in the european Union. You know the general principle of a solidaric union? With the taxes of every single one of us, we also pay for other countries that have gotten into financial trouble somehow. We europeans are paying right now for the debts of Spain, Italy and Greece. And its a good thing that we do because if we´d ever get in trouble, they would need to do the same for us. And we use this system for immigrants who have to face death because they are politically persecuted in their own countries too. Every country has a certain percentage of people they have to take in. Period. And i actually think its a pretty good system, simply because the immigration problem cant be talked away. There will always be immigrants. Its a question of how to solve this problem in a humane way. You know, dont forget how easily you could have been born in a poor country like Afrika as well. And things arent always black and white. Of course its not always possible to re-locate every single person that isnt really happy with his life into another country. Live is not a pony farm and we cant always get what we want. But at least you´d need to differentiate between real refugees and the ones who already have all the basic needs but want a better life on the costs of others. Thats not what i am talking about. And im sure thats not what the people who swim on a piece of metal across the ocean are having in their mind either. Its about the very basic right to live. You would be surprised how many countries there are that not give a single shit about human rights or someone dying. Not a single shit. Go take a look at how people get beheaded or stoned every single day for their polictical or religious believes or simply because they wanted to live their life the way they wanted it to and tell me again they need to go back to this. I´ve seen it and it changed my view of the world forever. Some parts of this world arent such a compfy place our countries are and the least you could do is understand that most of these people are desperate and nothing but trying to live. I would do the very same thing if i´d be forced to choose between life and death. Who wouldnt?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Evil Genius

[pete34]

ok so i found 2 answers that had logic and need discusion, i did see a couple more i will find

botanica

Immigration is a much broader topic than illegal immigrants. Not much you can do about it now, it's highly political, the MSM will not address it and most people don't even care or understand about the long term implications of preserving or mixing cultures and race. 'We're all one big happy family' 'we're all the same' blah blah blah, politically correct but niave rhetoric. Illegal immigrants are ultimately small fish in relation to the broader trend of whats happening as overindustrialized 1st world countries slowly dillute into overpopulated 3rd world countries, except for places like China or Israel which have a priority towards being racially homogenous.

One thing to consider is that no person (like no plant species) should ever be labelled 'illegal'.

nothink

Doing A or B here wont solve the core of the problem. And if we have to label them something Im going to go with People...they are not boat people, white or black people, fat or thin people. They are just people like all of us.

The real question is WHY ARE THEY FLEEING? Not where to put them.

I dont believe they are coming here to rob me or blow up buildings, so I cant help but wonder why they risk their lifes to get here.

Then the next question is Do they need help? And How can we help?

Im not a fan of war or agree how Australia intervenes with other Countries at Americas beck n call, but maybe our troops are in the wrong place.

[pete34]

Do you know what illogical means?

To have a discussion about immigration & for me to ask were are you from is a resonable question.

Now you are trying to tell me what my logic is. How the fuck would you know?

Nice way to end your sentience as well 'get lost'

for someone who thinks they've got logic. Your pretty shit at having a discussion.

 

like i said get lost

[Ethos]

Now address EG's comment

Edited: I was unaware of the United nations immigration strategies, thankyou for bringing them up EG

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ethos

[pete34]

G'day Evil genius

good post mate

i knew it would get you thinking and you would have a logical contribution

[pete34]

Now address EG's comment

 

yes mam just did

[Ethos]

 

I would do the very same thing if i´d be forced to choose between life and death. Who wouldnt?

 

I'm guessing you wouldn't? you'd choose death rather then to burden another country with your pressence?

 

So you would have deported jews that tried to flee into your country back to germany right into their certain death?

 

well?

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ethos

[Jox]

Man I have not been rude or impolite to you at all.

Whats your drama?

Maybe take your Philippineo x or what ever it is & go get lad!

In the morning make her a vegimite sanga & hope for a good day

Happy Australia day to ALL

[chnt]

hello bill o'reilly, love your work bro, you make us all proud, love you til death.

[Torsten]

Pete, I think you could have done much better than this pitiful thread. It's a very improtant discussion, but your simplistic approach basically makes it impossible for any proper discussion to develop. But I'll get to that shortly.

Most improtantly I want to pioint out that by calling people illegals you are either defaming them if it is untrue or you are incriminating them if it is true. Either is against the rules here, so please apologise and edit.

Similarly accusing people of being on drugs [eg peyote] is also defamatory.

By dismissing every opinion that does not match your own you have pretty much killed this thread. It's on page 4 and there is no substance from you and very little interaction from you to content provided by others. You wonder why this topic is so difficult? It's because of people like you.

I have no nationalism and regard borders as *mostly* arbitrary, however, I agree that too much mixing of cultures can cause problems. Religion is probably the main factor here - at least from my perspective as an atheist. So if we were to try and keep the mixing of cultures to a certain ratio where integration is favoured over isolation, then that is something you obviously approve of as your partner seems to fit that concept. It's probably the safest form of multiculturalism. I'd like to hear you confirm this though as I have met plenty of immigrants who are utter racists and hypocrites when it comes to immigration.

If we assume that such a low immigration rate is the desired model, how do you propose to 'turn back the boats'? Contrary to your previous statement, most arrivals have not been accepted as refugees in any country. Most of them are illegals in indonesia, malaysia or wherever they started the last leg of their journey from. So where do you propose to turn them back to?

This is the bit that I don't understand about this argument. We can't send them to where they fled from because that would be a death sentence for many. We can't send them back to where they started their last journey from because they are illegal in that country too. So please tell us pete where we should send them to? And please for once do your homework before making blatantly wrong statements.

Many refugees aim for countries that are signatory to the UN convention on refugees. Malaysia for example is not which is why refugees there have no rights and which is why they can't stay there. One way to deal with refugees aiming for the richest countries as their final destination would be to encourage [ie force] other countries to sign the convention so that refugees could start their lives in those countries rather than having to risk their lives to come to australia.

Another error you kept repeating is that of illegal immigrants. Most illegal immigrants in australia are from the UK. They are actually illegal because they have overstayed their visas and are not refugees. There is nothign illegal about a person coming to australia and applying for refugee status. They are not 'illegal arrivals' despite how often this term is used in the media.

Until 2 years ago 95% of all asylum seekers were granted refugee status. Once afghanistan became a little more stable several afghan tribal groups were removed from the refugee listing. Because many of these had been travelling for many months or years, they had left as genuine refugees, but became non-refugees in the meantime. This has brought the percentage of genuine asylum seekers arriving by boat to about 85%. Once this discrepancy is washed out of the system the percentage will likely go back up to 95%. Bottom line is that most refugees actually don't want to leave their home country and many are quite happy to return there if it is safe to do so.

Do you actually know how many people arrive by boat each year, ie what you call 'illegal immigrants', but which are actually asylm seekers arriving by boat?

The total number of visas issued under the humanitarian visa system is about 13,500 per year. This number does not change!!!! The total number of refugee visas issued each year as part of the 13,500 is about 6000. This number also does not change. So when you talk about a flood of refugees, what exactly are you referring to? The numbers do not change. It is just their make up that changes. eg this year we have more than the usual 7000 boat people, so there will be less refugee visas issued to offshore refugees. The actual number of refugees that arrive does not change. I guess from your other statements that you didn't actually know this.

Lastly, please indulge me. Think of this scenario for a moment: Australia is invaded by China because they want to get our resources for free. The USA is bankrupt from fighting too many wars, so no one is coming to help us. The new chinese imperial government has been known for some time to be putting religious people into labour camps. In australia this is convenient as the many churches who kept membership rolls provide the chinese with plenty of cheap labour for the mines. Your name and those of your family are on one of those church membership rolls. Your brother has already been shot inside a labour camp because his asthma made him too inefficient. You dig up the US$10,000 you so wisely buried just before the invasion and you find someone who either out of compassion or out of greed provides the means to smuggle you out of the country. What now? Where would you hope to be accepted? Indonesia and malaysia don't want you because they don't want their culture diluted with white trash. NZ is bankrupt and looks like it will be invaded next anyway. Japan values it's work ethic too much to allow lazy aussies in. All of africa is fundamentalist muslim and they don't want you either. You're desperate, but the whole world thinks you're just a useless refugee that will be a burden to them.

I am a member of a refugee help group. One of the things we do is to help refugees transition into the local community. In Mullumbimby this isn't too difficult as we have a balance of hippies and redneck, so you just make sure they understand the difference ;) The thing that struck me is that of the 5 refugees I met ALL had a much higher education standard than me, and 3 had professions I am to lazy to attain. One is a west african doctor who had been educated in the UK and who had run his own practice for many years. he is now stacking supermarket shelves. he annoyed the fuck out of me cos he was so religious and I have a low tolerance for that, but his religion was christianity, so no culture clash there for the rest of the community. In fact all the west african refugees I have met were christian and spoke good english.

[pete34]

lol Jox you make a post then minutes later pester and repeat a framed question

and now play dumb

eh eh so yes get lost mate, unless you have a logical solution

if you pester, people will tell ya that and i you know that man sheesh

ethos same goes for you mam

i bet a silver dollar both of you watch the news and actually believe it

[nabraxas]

I believe Australia is the 6th largest country based on land mass err.. continent

not sure what you meant there, but just for clarity:

Australia is a continent comprising the mainland of the country of Australia and proximate islands including Tasmania, New Guinea, the Aru Islands, and the Raja Ampat Islands. The continent is sometimes known in technical contexts by the names Sahul, Australinea or Meganesia, to distinguish it from the Australian mainland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_%28continent%29

all the psudo enlightened World Peace Meditation & Introduction to the Spiritual Teaching type posts Pete34 has made, & now it all comes down to this?

He feedeth on ashes

[pete34]

G'day Torsten

re:

Pete, I think you could have done much better than this pitiful thread. It's a very improtant discussion, but your simplistic approach basically makes it impossible for any proper discussion to develop.

a simplistic response got a simplistic answer, on forums people are disrespectful or pester on hot topics and it can be catching eh eh

ok will apologise and edit

re:

By dismissing every opinion that does not match your own you have pretty much killed this thread. It's on page 4 and there is no substance from you and very little interaction from you to content provided by others. You wonder why this topic is so difficult? It's because of people like you.

there wasnt much substance either way and Torsten It's because of people like me it will be discussed, on forums people are disrespectful or pester on hot topics and it can be catching eh eh, i am trying to tell them some things without causing a panic but i will stop now and stick to plant topics here, i have said my 2 bobs worth

re:

to turn them back to?

indonesia, malaysia or wherever they started, its the prev location, its the only place they can be sent, you think its impossible but it isnt

i can understand your angle

i will respond to the rest of your post asap

[qualia]

there was a nice article in "the conversation" the other day if anyones interested:

http://theconversation.edu.au/refugee-populations-across-the-globe-the-facts-7557

another shit thread btw,

[Stillman]

T nice post

"In Mullumbimby this isn't too difficult as we have a balance of hippies and redneck, so you just make sure they understand the difference ;)"

this cracked me up.

[Jox]

Poor pete, people pestering & been disrespectful. Who was??

Now your caught up in it, Great excuses mate. Emotions high / logic 0. eheh

Now be a good Australian & conform do what your told. Edit & aplaogise. eheheheheh

I have been interested in your other forums & thought you had some insight.

After this I realize you are a rude, selfish & short sighted.

Good luck pete!

[space cadet swami]

I'm thinking pete is aboriginal. Otherwise his argument falls short of the mark.

Maybe u should get lost pete.

Borders shift with the flow of time, as do the people who inhabit them. Explain what makes you any more deserving of being here, then any other fellow human being..? (note question...worthy of an answer..? Or are you an elitist, selecting only those questions you see fit to answer..?)

Do you have compassion in ur being..? Or just plain ignorance..?

You don't have to answer, as I'm sure u won't anyway.

[Marklar]

1. how is that an insult?

2. non logic

3. irrelevance

4. your posts havnt been worth responding too

 

it was me who first asked mate and you responded with "how original" and "are you even 18 yet". A pretty irrevelent immature reply if you ask me, how old are you? Because your the one who sounds like the typical young aussie yobbo raised by racist parents and john howard, or are you the racist old man raising your kids that way? The captain cook question and the what mob question are effectively the same and im sorry i have to spell the meaning out to you, are you aboriginal? no? then where do we begin sending people back to where they came from, or do we just turn the boats around? if so is turning away refugees and illeagal immigrents really going to fix overpopulation issues?

[space cadet swami]

^^^I'll bet he's got the "southern cross tattoo". pmsl

[Alice]

^ I was thinking the exact same thing while reading this last night lol. That or the flag flying in his front yard.

[Foo]

Its still very hard to believe he isnt just trolling. I just read the word logic so many times its lost all meaning (in this thread anyway).

How far back do you have to go to find your blood line in Europe? Not far at a guess.

Your rant reminds me of those east coast race riots. I saw a bit of news from 2 bogans raving that they "cant even get a decent hamburger anymor" bwahaha.

[space cadet swami]

c'mon man...the ol' vege burger from "hungry dacks" is a legend.

[Foo]

I got some vouchers with FOUR! days left for $2 veggie woppers. Well also for woppers ...

Edit: lets stay on topic, IMIGRANTZ IZ RUINZ MIENZ HAMBURGERZ

Edited June 26, 2012 by eatfoo