indigenous opioid bark

[sandalwood]

well, a little more research.

this plant is more common than I thought.

there should be commercially avialable material out there somewhere.

I had no idea that this was a mangrove tree.

its funny because last night I was drawing a card for a girl I know dying of cancer.

I drew an adaptation, of a mayan picture, of a crocodile, at the base of a mangrove swamp, and a quetzal bird in the trees.

while I was drawing the picture,...I thought to myself that there might be something in the picture that has healing potential in nature.

the next day I find that I was drawing a type of plant that I would later read about the next day.

funny how life works.

anyway, this plant is an ayurvedic herb.

I can find no source for the single herb...though it is a component of poly ingredient herb blends.

as a matter of fact, I found very few single herbs available for sale internationally, at least though some ayurvedic websites.

this plant has been used for quite some time as a medicinal.

strangely...it has been used more internally it seems in places other than Australia.

are there certian taboo against internally taking herbs in Australias "original" culture?

I have heard that in NZ, many herbs were not taken internally because of taboo....

I hope the chinese are researching this herb.

I hope that material becomes avialable...and I hope if not an interesting euphoric opioid, that it is at least a marginally interesting analgesic opioid.

[sandalwood]

Barringtonia racemosa is an available plant in the USA. from a very nice nursery I have ordered tabernaemontana species from.

the only problem with this company is that they have once shipped me mis identified plants. to their support I can say that they called me and informed me when they found this out.

this species also has fish poisoning properties...though I have not found any human consumption history yet.

Barringtonia acutangula seed seems avialable enough.

being a fresh water mangrove perhaps this species is rare/endangered in Australia?

I am thinking that India is going to be the place to find sourcable voucher specimen of this plant. if not prepared powdered material. the problem is sourcing some single herbs from this country. I have had some similiar problem in sourcing the extract of tabernaemontana divaricata from India. a little bit of raw roots is all I was able to find. and I bought that from a usa vendor.

[shruman]

"this could be the next kratom type of discovery."

In some ways that could be good in others maybe not.

You might not know but kratom is illegal in australia, plants/herbs/extracts the lot we have a pretty opressive government when it comes to theese things. Might explain something about this thread?

[sandalwood]

yes, I knew that Australia is a bit tougher on some plant species.

some people in Australia when ordering certian plants like caapi vine, have Americans intentionally miss label the plant material as something else. I wont mention the plant names substituted commonly...but if anyone wants to PM me, I would be glad to let you know...unless of course you are an Australian official.

intentional miss labeling is ok with me. even in the USA I know some people that have ordered kratom labeled as more common, FDA approved south american herbals, as sometimes the FDA gets a boner to destroy large amounts of kratom imports.

what I am suprised about...not too much, but a little...is that this identity of plant is already known in the media. I finally found articles associated with the discovery in Australia that the plant has medicinal application.

thing is...that the Australian discovery is actually a late discovery....this plant has been used as a medicinal for centuries now....its even listed in some older books on alkaloids and such.

the plant is an ingredient in ayurvedic applications...that are even marketed towards children...though it seems that this plants extract or powder is used sparingly in most of these poly substance compounded medicines. it seems that there is probably alot more historical research on this plants medicinal use that I havnt touched. the total time I have spent knowingly researching this plants activity is about 2 hours total.

kratoms opioid activity has been known for a decent amount of time...that, and the plant has a history of use in countries that are notorious for heroin production as a supplement to opium.

one thing that Australia has going for it, is, that at least its close to endemic kratom populations, and has a good environment in areas for growing the plant. if kratom is ever illegalized in the USA....we are going to have a very limited area where the plant will winter over.

its nice that Australia hasnt already illegalized the fresh water mangrove.

having a comprehensive list of all plants that have proven opioid activity would be a nice thing to present to the general population and authorities.

it might give them some idea of the scope of opioid activity in nature.

common substances like menthol, which is a kappa opioid agonist both topically and internally, could be future sources of opioid analogs. its possible.

the list of opioid active plants in nature is getting long. I dont see the possibility that as that list grows, that any government could effectively prohibit and control the sale of even 10% of the known opioid active plants.

seeing that this plant has been somewhat commonly used as a medicinal, I think that chances that we are dealing with a substance with potential of abuse is pretty low. why has this plant not risen to the interest of that of opium.....probably like kratom we are dealing with compounds that like morphine are agonists, but unlike morphine. even though they might bind stronger, lack major euphoric effects.

anyway, that is alot of conjecture.

what I am interested in now is bioassay.

from what I understand, the flower of this plant might be the most ethical and potent way to investigate this plant in the wild. the trouble with collecting flowers is the locale that this plant dumps its flowers into. mud and water. probably croc territory.

but perhaps in the right season some enterprising individual might hang a tarp below some trees and collect some flowers. in one report I read, the flowers were listed as being one of the most potent sources of activity in this plant.

from what I have read ethanol and methanol produce usable extracts of this plant.

from an article on the plant in Australia

"Quinn said the active compound appeared to be novel, and STRUCTURALLY UNRELATED TO OPIATE PAINKILLERS"

...very interesting...and not a bad factoid when considering the "window of legality" that this plant might be opportuned.

"Quinn said Griffith University help a provisional patent on several compounds extracted from the plant and hoped to develop a drugs under joint agreement with the local Aboriginal people, who would recieve 50% of any returns once the product was brought to market"

....that is a nice policy for discovery...too bad such an agreement wasnt extended to the Mazatec, considering salvia divinorum could help produce a new painkiller with less tolerance side effects.

they better get crackin on this discovery...because its possible that some corporation in India has known about this plant for years, and is prepared to do the same.

"seeds in powder form have been used as a snuff to relieve headaches"

seeds of the differen species have been used for homicidal intent "coconut milk being the antidote"

"use of B racemosa as a tanning agent, due to the presense of tannins, and as an insecticide reportedly to be approximately half as potent as nicotine. the fruit of Barringtonia has been used to poison wild pig. in addition the seed of b. racemosa and ther fruit of B asiatica has been used for suicide and administration with homicidal intent. these toxic properties may be due to the presence of HCN which has been demonstrated in high concentrations in the kernel of B. asiatica"

there is alot of information in this patent report....too much for me to easily deduct what the active compounds were in the plant. it makes for slow reading...someone with pharmacology study under their belt can probably understand more than I can.

sometimes there is an easy answer, sometimes not. what is clear though is that this plant deserves more research. how many other related species share the same/similiar active compounds?

"this could be the next kratom type of discovery."

In some ways that could be good in others maybe not.

You might not know but kratom is illegal in australia, plants/herbs/extracts the lot we have a pretty opressive government when it comes to theese things. Might explain something about this thread?

[misteek]

hey good info sandalwood

[t st tantra]

this genus seems to be grown in garden type situations.......so the fresh water mangrove thing might be flexible.......

t s t .

[the germinator]

http://www.yuruga.com.au/stock-lists/

Barringtonia acutangula 140mm pot.

[sandalwood]

nice find on live plants.

seeds can be found searching the plant name under google images.

one thing small thing though.....this thread should actually be called indigenous OPIOID bark..

from my understanding...the active substances are NOT in any way structurally related to opiates.

but that is just a minor issue.

http://www.yuruga.com.au/stock-lists/

Barringtonia acutangula 140mm pot.

[the germinator]

Vageena/Vagina...

[sandalwood]

well...sort of..

but in a country with a very vague analog law, something not having true opiate related structure is a big deal.

it means that the compound/plant material has a better window of legality.

it also means when the media makes reports against such natural products....that their sloppy unscientific terms can be picked on.

different papaver species seem to contain oripavine and similiar types of compounds that could have potential in using to create very potent opiate analogs.....but the whole research project would technically be on thin ice at least in the USA.

in nature there are to be found, possibly hundreds of opioid active compounds.....true opiate type compounds are less prolific.

and anyway...what is a vegeena.... a vegitarian?

ha heh ha ha

Vageena/Vagina...

[the germinator]

Good point!

Slips my mind sometimes.

BTW; A vageena is probably a South African cunt???

No offense intended at all!!!

Edited January 26, 2009 by the germinator

[Thelema]

Yep, post title has been modified in response to this feedback. In defence, i didn't know at the time whether or not the bark in question was opiate or opioid - or anything close; such information has only manifested itself retrospectively.

So, since I seem to have a bit of a thing for barks at the moment, if anyone would like to send me a sample I'd be more than willing to accept the offer for the good of science.

[sharxx101]

Yep, post title has been modified in response to this feedback. In defence, i didn't know at the time whether or not the bark in question was opiate or opioid - or anything close; such information has only manifested itself retrospectively.

So, since I seem to have a bit of a thing for barks at the moment, if anyone would like to send me a sample I'd be more than willing to accept the offer for the good of science.

I have heard that the bark is opioid, bummer!!!

[sandalwood]

I have heard that the bark is opioid, bummer!!!

Bummer?!?!?!?!?

I thought that was what this whole thread was about?

I just recieved some Barringtonia acutangula seeds from India.

I am attempting to grow half of them.

I am confused as to whether the seeds are something to approach, or just the bark. I know the seeds are reported toxic.

it would be nice if I got some germination...

but for over a year, I have had very low germination to 0% germination rates from seeds I have recieved from overseas.

I contacted many suppliers of ayurvedic plants in India, looking for a supplier of bark of this plant, and only had a few responses.

I am very dissapointed....

I see more than a few types of medicinal blends that contain small amounts of the substance...but I find no one that offers the whole, single herb.

there has got to be a supplier out there somewhere.

one of the only people offering to help me find the herb, is a person involved with siddha medicinal system, and wanted me to take his correspondence course. I told him I could not afford such....and he claimed that maybe the institute he works with will sometimes overlook charging someone, if they are truly interested in integral medicinals, and crossing cultural boundaries...

but then, I have heard nothing from him for months.

[sandalwood]

well, after almost a year of searching for sources I have finally sourced some decent barringtonia material.

around 6 months ago I recieved some small ill kept seeds from a company in India that specializes in seeds.

I bought rudraksha seeds and barringtonia acutangula seeds from them.

the B. acutangula seeds were not viable...and barely viable as a source for bioassay...the seeds actually looked rotten, and I think that they were.

a few days ago I finally recieved some bark powder, and large, hard, healthy seeds.

the company that I sourced them from took a few months to supply the materials....and they have no website...so I had to wire them money from my bank...which cost me almost as much to wire the money as the initial small order I placed!

after a few months of waiting though, I was not let down.

the bark powder is well ground.....

and the seeds are VERY hard, and fresh looking.

apparently the reason my order took so long, is because this material is relatively rarely produced as a single herb ingredient...most supply goes to patent/combination ayurvedic medicines...in which barringtonia is just a minor ingredient.

so the pharmacy had a fresh amount processed, prompted in part by my order, and because the material that was onhand was old.

I have planted 6 seeds....they will probably take awhile to germinate, if they germinate at all...being sent through customs I never know if my seeds are going to get irradiated to death.

the different sources I have found online, and other places, in communications, suggests that the bark and seed and leaf material are all used medicinally....seeds are powdered and used as a snuff for headache....bark is used for diarrhea and cough...the whole plant seems to be used for various pain complaints...fever treatment, and from one source, an explanation that the main modern use at least in their area, is using the seed powder aqueous extract as an ear infection/ache treatment...to be dripped into the ear.

also the seeds are used as fish poisons.

I havnt bioassayed anything yet.

one source I found online suggests that a dose is anywhere from 3 grams to 18 grams as an oral decoction.

one use that interests me is the bark aqueous extract being used as a general tonic.

I have found no specific pharmakinetics research, that discusses specific activity in regards to a specific compound...

various compounds are explained as the active material....but I am confused as to what exactly is causing the pain relief....I have noticed no discussion of mu, kappa, delta, or sigma stimulation.

the company that sent me the material also claims to have access to 16:1 potency extracts of some of the different parts of the plant.

the material doesnt sound too potent as far as dosage is concerned...I am really hoping that less is more with this material...because as usual, the taste doesnt seem to be something that is going to be nice.

well, its been a long year of waiting for this one. now I have plenty of material to pass some on to a chemist, and for my personal bioassay research.

and I REALLY hope I get some live seeds out of this shipment!

[apothecary]

Keep it up sandalwood, great work! Really hope your perseverance pays off.

[Thelema]

the story goes, that it was the bark that was consumed, mixed with saliva, and rubbed into the raw wound. This does not immediately suggest that a 16:1 oral extract is wise.

also bear in mind that the branches of some barringtonia were bashed against the river as a fish poison: this might be a warning to consider the bark rather than the arial parts.

[t st tantra]

saponins are the most common fish poison and many/most of the plants commonly used by us contain them.....aya,psych,anaden etc

t s t .

[sandalwood]

the ayurvedic data that I have found is pretty diverse.

and there is other data besides that....which mentions oral, topical, insuffilation consumption of nearly every part of this plant...

seeds, fruit, bark, are already ayurvedic products that are used both topically and oral.

one source claimed 3-18 grams of the bark was good taken orally...

some sources talk about insuffilating for headache.

the pharmacy I dealt with sells seeds in whole form, and the fruit, the seed, and the bark in powdered form.

as well, there are quite a few multi herb blends, including common medicines for children, that use small doses of the barringtonia species in modern indian herbal pharmaceuticals.

I had more of a problem finding a source for the single herb......it seems to me that many shops just carried products that contained the plant parts..rather than carrying the single plant parts.

months of looking...and paying for the material in advance paid off. I spent around 80$ to get a pound of different material....most of that was the money wire, as I couldnt find a place that sold the plant that had a website with a shopping cart.

it also took almost 1 1/2 months to finally get shipped to me.

to tell you the truth....I dont expect alot from the bark material....as I have read statements that claim there is no real negative effects from the bark at stated dosages....the material is claimed to be benign enough for regular use as a tonic, and for children.

I know fish poison sounds like something to be cautious of...and any new herb/plant material that one tries should be done cautiously...bordering on the ridiculous sometimes.

anyway, fish poisons like balche root, kava kava, jamaican dogwood....all struck me as quite mild in effects....not to mention low toxicity...

I did test a small amount orally of the bark powder....with no problems.

I am more worried about saponigen content causing bowel problems than anything....

the commercial/scientific interest in this plant is intruiging........but the common use in ayurveda, and india as a folk medicine, and much of the data has me worried a bit that the plant is going to be another low potency opioid at best, with minimal effects either way. I havnt seen any sources claiming poisonous or dangerous narcotic action with this barringtonia species......nor have I seen any mention that the plant is psychoactive, or debilitating or intoxicating.

after all, menthol is a kappa opioid agonist...and besides slight stimulant, anti tussive, and topical pain relieving effects, I would hardly call menthol interesting as a psychoactive, maybe more as a odiferous agent......

I have tried at least 10 novel opioid plants that generally are not avialable commercially much...except maybe in africa...or at least werent when I had tried them for the first time....like dalea purpurea, picralima nitida, tabernaemontana pachysiphon, just off the top of my head...

and for the most part...nothing has excited me much....it takes alot of leads to find just a few "more than interesting" plant materials. a few of those plants had negative, antagonist like effects rather than anything comforting

still, I cant stop looking...its a driving interest.

I would say that 1 out of 40 active natural opioids sourced from plants are interesting from a hedonistic perspective...with nigella sativa and kratom topping my list...

picralima nitida very interesting as a stimulant....same thing with myrrh..excellent opioid stimulant..

ALL of the natural opioids are interesting to me from a medicinal herbal perspective..and combinations of such I think hold alot of potential for beneficial uses for humans and animals.

saponins are the most common fish poison and many/most of the plants commonly used by us contain them.....aya,psych,anaden etc

t s t .

[Antrenom]

Wow this is very facinating find indeed.

Does anyone have an up close photo of this plant, I might have to go hunt this one down, any reports of sightings around fresh water swamps around Dwelingup or Albany?

Edited March 3, 2010 by Antrenom

[amanito]

sandalwood, any updates? Bioassays, anyone?

Found a source for fruits, roots and leaves, wondering if those are active ..

[mutant]

opioid stimulant?? how come??

[lofty86]

http://www.greenstocknurseries.com.au/downloads/Tree%20Catalogue%202007.pdf

This place is just down the road from my folks and they have established Barringtonia acutangula in stock there not an online nursery but the page has contact details.

im pretty sure i ride past them evryday on the way home from work to out near the harbour ill get a local mate to double check my id because theres a few Barringtonia spp around here and if im right ill harvest some seed and let you guys know.

[michaelangelica]

Ther are a lot of plant pain killers (including nicotine) not many contain the opioid alkaloids TMK

Perhaps it may have been Duboisia that was used?

[Yeti101]

Stephania bancroftii Tuber contains −)-tetrahydropalmatine and (−)-stephanine, whereas these are minor components in the leaves, from which a C-7 hydroxylated aporphine has been identified.

Stephania aculeata Tuber contains (+)-laudanidine, and the morphinoid, (−)-amurine

(From "Characterisation of alkaloids from some Australian Stephania (Menispermaceae) species", Phytochemistry, 2003)