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The Great Global Warming/Cooling Thread Part 2

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8 minutes ago, Crop said:

Despite the massive damage caused by crops like mono-cultured soya bean

 

Majority of soy monoculture is farmed for animal fodder.

 

 

@DualWieldRake You're right that those things I mentioned aren't examples about climate change, but I couldn't think of something we've intervened in for environmental reasons that has negatively impacted climate change. 

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20 minutes ago, Crop said:

Mate I don't think your right there. Paradox, among other things, seems to be disputing the usual hippy propaganda that vegetarianism is somehow the answer. Despite the massive damage caused by crops like mono-cultured soya bean or the much higher yield per hectare and smaller eco foot print of farming systems that incorporate both plants and animals. Such as the traditional systems used in Vietnam's the Red River Delta, or the Duck, Rice, Azolla systems of Japan, or even Animal Tractor Permiculture systems. 

 

What damage are we talking about? to whom excactly is the damage beeing dealt?

You, Me?

 

4seasons.jpg2006ESA_Kudzu2a.jpg

Edited by DualWieldRake
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It doesn't matter what you like... But you don't like the discussion full stop...dont Fuck around:wink:

 

I asked you first, never know I might give ya a professional run down.... Decades of it....

 

BTW if ya read you'll have the gist of some of it...

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0

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The theory goes things get hot, ice melts,co2 and we all die right...

It's just not happening.

 

Canaries dying is called evolution.

 

Where i'm from canaries have no chance either way lol.

Let's hear your professional run down :P

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Even ignorant dicks have a better idea than that.... C'mon give it a go

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14 minutes ago, hashslingr said:

 

Majority of soy monoculture is farmed for animal fodder.

 

 

@DualWieldRake You're right that those things I mentioned aren't examples about climate change, but I couldn't think of something we've intervened in for environmental reasons that has negatively impacted climate change. 

 

I agree it has an effect.

Like a rise in co2 from the soy deforestation maybe

 

I don't see that beeing neccesarily negative though, plants are craving for that

 

The soy hype will blow over at some point i guess.

If it won't blow over it may get overgrown (or eaten by mutated birds)

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2 hours ago, hashslingr said:

Majority of soy monoculture is farmed for animal fodder.

The way propaganda works is by taking a half truth, then twisting it till people hear what they want to hear. The part of soya bean used in animal fodder is the low value meal. Yes technically this is the bulk of the bean. However it is not economically viable to grow Soya for the meal. Instead you grow Soya for the high value milk or oil, which leaves the meal as a by product. In the early days of soya farming (in the west) the meal was thrown away. Now farmers make a few extra bucks selling it as animal fodder. So yes, technically most of the soya bean ends up as animal food, but this is actually a form of recycling, and about the only thing their doing right, yet is the first thing well meaning people pick on.

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1 hour ago, Crop said:

you grow Soya for the high value milk or oil, which leaves the meal as a by product.

 

Most soy products do not go to feeding humans, and most soy products for humans are not exclusively vegetarian products. In fact, some estimates put human consumption of soy at 6%, which includes uses in things like canned meats, body care products etc. Soya lecithin is in a tonne of products. The most important point: taken as a whole, the economic value of the meal, almost all of which is used for fodder, is much higher than the value of the oil. 

 

Look at the history of deforestation caused by demand for soy, since the early 20th century it's been tied to livestock production. Look where soy is imported to, particularly from the Amazon. Do you really think that the Netherlands, or even the EU, is the leading producer of human consumption soy products for the region or globally?

 

Have a look at this. Soy ain't being grown for hippies' tofu and lactose intolerants' milk. Farmers aren't make a few extra bucks on soymeal, multinationals are making a packet deforesting the Amazon for animal feed. 

 

In the broader context of whether hippie crap like a vegetarian diet is better for the environment, there doesn't seem to be much confusion: 

 

"predominantly plant-based diets appear environmentally better than meat-based ones214243. Our results are consistent with those reports, since, in the present study, VG and V diets represent a clear environmental advantage with respect to the O one for all the three environmental evaluated indicators. This aspect, which is related to the biggest environmental impact generated by a greater consumption of animal products, had already been hypothesized728."

Study

 

 

Some more reading on the topic:

Evaluating environmental impact of various dietary patterns

Diet and GHGs in the UK

Review of environmental impact of diet

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18 hours ago, hashslingr said:

 

Because all the other species on the planet don't exist for our own benefit. If you think plants and animals have any intrinsic value you should have a conscience about what our species is doing to them.

 

Saying that the earth will recover from this mass extinction is a cop out. It's also ignoring the massive suffering we're inflicting on other animals. 

 

I find this extremely idealistic, this is your own interpretation of the earth crisis and you are trying to imply that you care about it but I dont, and that we are somehow able to individually make a change..... that somehow the rise of the homo sapiens X in the top predator on the earth can lead to sapiens protect the other species and not sapiens wiping out more and more speices. thats not how it goes! 

 

I recently read Harari's "Homo sapiens" , what a fantastic book! I recommend it to anyone with any interest in the true history of our species on earth. Cynic, scientific with not a trace of idealism or religious thought.. Pure data analysis. Highly recommended its a massive worldwide hit. 

 

Now I am not saying there shouldnt be enviromental laws, but hey, most activists are so full of themselves and their own view of purist ecology, same as with any other ideology from marxism, anarchism to feminism, you name it. Of course our societies should eventually shift to other energy and food paradigms, and its not theory or aesthetics, its pure math.. Resources will eventually run out..

 

You are saying the biggest problem of humanity is the enviroment.. Maybe. Harari states that only technology can save the demise of the sapiens. The biggest problem of humanity could also be over population which might result in a chain-reaction to the earth both energy and food wise. 

 

Did you know that a good portion of nuclear waste are hypothesised to be dumped in the mediterranean sea through sinking ships from the italian mafia? One can only wonder what will happen when these start opening, if they havent already.. 

 

So its fucked up.. I dont know what you mean cop-out, noone can get off the planet. The fact I dont choose to get worked up on something I dont really have a say or power on, that is global politics on food, pollution, energy , doesnt mean I am like "fuck it" and "fuck the enviroement" - actually I am very into "think globally think locally" mentality..

 

and then of course there is this legendary george carlin routine on the matter 

 

 

the routine is so well thought-out that it alone could be a great reply . 

 

THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PLANET

 

Me? I believe the biggest problem of humans are the religious thought and transforming anything into ideology, which was what led to our civilisation in the first place. YES! believing in bullshit , imaginary friends and made-up concepts is what set the bases of civilisation apparently, according to Harrari's book. 

 

maybe we've had TOO MUCH civilisation and evolution.. and now its time to pay the price, why being so chicken shit about it? 

 

humans oh so funny

Edited by sagiXsagi
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@sagiXsagi

I don’t know what you interpret as idealistic in what I said. I’m not saying if we just try that we’re going to save the planet. My position is that even if we can’t stop the mass extinction we’ve kicked into motion, that possibility doesn’t absolve us of responsibility to do what we can. We may be apex predators, but that not all we are. We have saved other species and protected species from extinction. We've developed large movements that consciously try to remove themselves from the sentient food chain. Humans aren’t just one thing or the other.

 

Yeah Harari’s Homo Sapiens was a good collection of other peoples’ studies into a coherent narrative about our long history. It isn’t just based on data, though, there’s a lot of scholarly hypothesising and inference in it, and he sometimes makes these moments clear to the reader. And yep, he’s a bit of a techno-futurist, and a bit of a techno-utopian. The way he discusses deep play is certainly interesting, but I wouldn’t say he’s free from ideology. None of us are. He’s also a vegan, and he engages in numerous spiritual practices. And yeah, the technological arguments about our environmental future are interesting. Carbon sequestering is an interesting, if not yet practicable idea. Renewable energies are now feasible. I think the bigger problem is that we already have the capacity to take serious steps to reducing our environmental impact, but we don't. Numerous books have been written by experts about what can be done, and they've mostly been ignored by the powers that be. What's the point of developing new wondrous technologies that will save us when we don't bother to do what we can now? Seems like political procrastination to me. 

 

What I’m saying is a cop out is voicing the attitude “why should we care about the environment,” The reason we should care is because we’re actively and passively damaging it. 

 

I can’t be bothered to watch the video, but if his point is the old “the planet is fine, the planet will be fine, it’s humans who won’t be” then I’ve heard it. But it isn’t only humans who won’t be, its the innumerable other species we’ll take down with us. And by the way, the attitude that we’ve had too much civilisation sounds pretty close to anarcho-primativism, another ideology :P

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11 hours ago, Crop said:

Mate I don't think your right there. Paradox, among other things, seems to be disputing the usual hippy propaganda that vegetarianism is somehow the answer. Despite the massive damage caused by crops like mono-cultured soya bean or the much higher yield per hectare and smaller eco foot print of farming systems that incorporate both plants and animals. Such as the traditional systems used in Vietnam's the Red River Delta, or the Duck, Rice, Azolla systems of Japan, or even Animal Tractor Permiculture systems. 

Tell me im misreading this in that you think the majority of soy production goes into feeding vegetarian humans?

 

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11 hours ago, DiscoStu said:

Tell me im misreading this in that you think the majority of soy production goes into feeding vegetarian humans?

Yah mate, you where misreading this. What I was doing was agreeing with what I thought Paradox was saying, that is that vegetarians which source their food from industrial agricultural mono-cultures, do not have the high ground in this discussion. I simply used soy as an example and it is a good one. I went further in debunking the vegetarian propaganda by giving real world examples of current poly-culture, animal and plant farming systems that produce far more yield with a lower ecological foot print than vegetable alone systems. I suppose what I was trying to say, is that if you are the type of person that snacks on tempe or sips on soy lattes(regardless of if you are vegetarian or not), while pointing your finger at meat-eaters, amid winging about deforestation in Brazil. Your not only a hypocrite, your also a mindless drone.

Edited by Crop
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hashsingr I don't expect a single post to overcome long-turn miss-information and propaganda. All I ask is that you have an open mind and yous critical thinking.

19 hours ago, hashslingr said:

he economic value of the meal, almost all of which is used for fodder, is much higher than the value of the oil. 

This is simply not true, the price of oil in China right now is about 3 times that of meal, and while oil prices are down meal is at a record high. 

 

19 hours ago, hashslingr said:

Look where soy is imported to, particularly from the Amazon. Do you really think that the Netherlands, or even the EU, is the leading producer of human consumption soy products for the region or globally?

I don't get the Netherlands and soy products thing, or why its relevant. The biggest buyer of soy, by far, is China which at the moment receives over 60% of world supply,about 45% of Brazil's production, and yes the Chinese absolutely love consuming their soy products. I do get the Amazon thing. Amazon is a great buzz word to add to propaganda dressed up to look like science. However it is also not true. Most of the world's soya is grown on Brazil's Savannah Plains and this is where most of the present deforestation is taking place. Just as tragic, but does not sound as sexy. 

As for the stuff about vegetarian diets being better for the environment. I've already given examples that show an even better way, please look into it. These farming systems are not widespread yet, but Japan's modern duck, loach (a type of catfish), azolla, rice poly-culture is attracting huge and serious attention. Not to mention total yields mono-culture can only dream about.

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23 hours ago, DualWieldRake said:

What damage are we talking about? to whom excactly is the damage beeing dealt?

You, Me?

 

4seasons.jpg2006ESA_Kudzu2a.jpg

Mate I get where your coming from. I used to think like this. I know CO2 levels can get much higher before plants reach their optimal level. I agree that human extinction would be a wonderful thing for the planet. I believe the planet is incredibly resilient. Unfortunately now days I also think our greed and stupidity have no limits, that we are more than capable of breaking this home we share.

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What made you change your mind?

 

Even tardigrades will evolve into wonderfull new us if you just give them a chance

Still tough, nothing is happening and i'm not quite sure what the whole problem is.

 

Worried about intense heat and drought? don't live in bloody australia..

:wink:

 

It's for real though, things are fine...birds, bees, fish, trees, thylacines...

Well most of them atleast

 

A lot of people are pretending they somehow can compensate with their actions..in reality it doesn't matter at all, they just acting in a system within a sytem it's kinda pointless unless it makes you feel good i guess...

 

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8 hours ago, Crop said:

This is simply not true, the price of oil in China right now is about 3 times that of meal, and while oil prices are down meal is at a record high. 

 

That's right, but it isn't what I said. The price of the oil is higher than the price of the meal, but overall the meal has a greater economic value because there is so much more of it. 

 

>Amazon is a great buzz word to add to propaganda dressed up to look like science. However it is also not true. Most of the world's soya is grown on Brazil's Savannah Plains and this is where most of the present deforestation is taking place. Just as tragic, but does not sound as sexy. 

 

I don't think the slow down in Amazon soy production over the last decade or so since the soy moratorium discounts the ecological damage done there for the purpose of soy farming. If you'd rather talk about Brazil more generally, any particular region of it, or any other regions, that's cool too. Bottom line of this discussion is: 

"the majority of Chinese soy imports are for use as animal feed for both its major agricultural animal, the pig, and for its increasing aquaculture industry. Many of these imports come from the US, but also significantly from South American countries such as Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil. Globally, 97 per cent of soybean production is for animal feed: in Argentina half of all cultivated land is given over to soya, of which 98 per cent is GM, compared to 90 per cent GM in Paraguay (Friends of the Earth, 2008). These countries are being used as experimental land grabs by complex corporate–state relations for the cultivation of GM crops in a broader context of the livestock revolution. The environmental and social impacts of the sudden growth of the soybean industry in South America are well documented (see, for example, Nepstad et al, 2006; Friends of the Earth, 2008; Jowit and Balch, 2008; Wasley, 2009)." 

 

>As for the stuff about vegetarian diets being better for the environment. I've already given examples that show an even better way

 

Absolutely, there's heaps of ways agriculture can be improved. Vegetarian diets have loads of problems, but not everyone's a primary producer and not everyone can influence the agricultural industry. Almost anyone can be a vegetarian, and even if it's a drop in the ocean environmentally, I'm just saying it has been proven to be more environmentally friendly than an omniverous diet in general. Of course there'll be exceptions, like if you're living on soy ice creams that have been transported in fridges from across the planet versus raising your own chooks and pigs in a permie kind of setup.

 

@DualWieldRake

>A lot of people are pretending they somehow can compensate with their actions..in reality it doesn't matter at all, they just acting in a system within a sytem it's kinda pointless unless it makes you feel good i guess..

 

From a consequentialist point of view, with a bit of nihilism mixed in, that's plausible. But don't you do anything on principle? Seems weak to only do something for the gain you'll get out of it. Don't you ever out something you're pretty sure you'll fail at? Seems kind of boring to only do stuff you know you're going to achieve. 

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Fck I am laughing

 

The wookie defenses and dumbfuckery are amusing .... Denial is a powerful thing, but hey if that's what ya need to get through:wink:

 

4seasons.jpg

 

What's the point of images of an invasive weed incursion? Yeah mate that's "damage"

 

Chaos and disarray.....

 

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0

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OK i will stop hoping for that professional run down now, seems you just gonna shout without stating any facts or even points

 

The weed is to show nature will grow over you, your existence is just a season for nature

 

3 hours ago, hashslingr said:

From a consequentialist point of view, with a bit of nihilism mixed in, that's plausible. But don't you do anything on principle? Seems weak to only do something for the gain you'll get out of it. Don't you ever out something you're pretty sure you'll fail at? Seems kind of boring to only do stuff you know you're going to achieve. 

 

It's hardly relevant to the discussion if i do.

The point i was trying to make is people make a lot of noise about climate change, then they go on doing things that in their fantasy makes the world better

 

Flat earth theory atleast is atleast somewhat plausible (with a lot of imagination)...this thing here is just a baseless fairytale

 

 

 

Edited by DualWieldRake

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9 hours ago, DualWieldRake said:

OK i will stop hoping for that professional run down now, seems you just gonna shout without stating any facts or even points

 

If you won't work for it why should I?

If you have a read you'll get some meat for a solid attack...dont be lazy. Seems you just gonna shout without any....fake news, blah, blah, nope.

 

Give us an example of something that fits your criteria as solid backing for your stance. Set the benchmark for "facts" ..  A critique of particle physics is not cutting it.... At all..That's a diversion... of many.

 

I don't need or want to convince you though, there's the thing... Your can have your view and that's all good.

 

Consider your own significance as your will. It's lacking sway though are my thoughts.

 

Your "nature" come weed point shows an invasive species taking over - nothing more...Your ecology is a bit off bro:wink:. That's not "nature" reclaiming, which it has the potential to do for sure ,thats an invasion..over a year...That's shit well out of balance...another diversion

 

You'll eat, shit and die like all of us, but you'll leave marks like us all, no matter what grows or thrown over it to camouflage it..... It's been no different for previous civilizations.

 

 

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You are tripping. I made my points you bring nothing to the table, just beeing loud mouth apparently

 

The burden of proof is on you, i'm not the one stating ridiculous claims

 

 

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I've already put on the table....

So what's my claim, just for clarity

Amuse me some more:wink:

 

Edit - come at me bro

 

 

Edited by waterboy 2.0
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