Caespiatosa from seed - has anyone grown some ?

[Heretic]

Hi , I once had some large LW v caespiatosa , before moving interstate to my present address . They came from a large nursery in Melbourne , purchased while on holiday there . At the time I lived in the tropics , and once there the plants began to grow surprisingly fast , much faster than " normal " lophs , such as the Texana variety , and in the same soil mix receiving identical nutes and watering . About twice as fast , actually . . Anyway , the caespiatosas rarely flowered , and when they did the flower had a much more vivid pink colour than the other type . I was never able to collect any seed - but unsure that they ever produced any - ants , birds or animals could have beaten me to them . . I am wondering if anybody has had seed from caespiatosa , and grown them . Also wondering if such seed breeds " true ", and grows multi heads , like the parent plant ; or do they grow large heads , like ordinary lophs . The reason I ask is that is I don't know whether or not the caespiatosa characteristics are innately genetic , or are the result of an injury. Just curious , and the only caespiatosa plants that I know of all all clones from the same stock .

EDITED BY EG! NO DISCUSSION ABOUT POTENCY AND INGESTION.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Evil Genius

[Goldtop]

Someone correct me if im wrong, but i think caes tends to grow like a normal loph up till 1-2 years old, then they start to shoot out pups and more pups. Ive never grown this from seed, but ive purchased a couple of lophs that age, some with no shoots, and some starting to pup out many buttons. Hope that helps bud

[trucha]

I'd like to know more also.

Just to clarify, I'm thinking you are talking about that one which forms shitloads of small buttons all over that never really get large and makes massive clumps with age?

I'd think it to be a horticutural mutant that is vegetatively propagated but could be wrong since its close to being just a guess based on relatively little.

Its a really cool looking plant whatever its origin turns out to be.

[Heretic]

Thankyou guys , I am curious about this - wondering if the caespiatose characteristics are the result of injury or genetics . Yes , Trucha , that's the one you described . It is very distinctive , and I have seen photos of it from Europe , USA , and Oz , so it must be very widely cloned . BTW , beneath the multi heads that are visible are more tiny heads that are white from lack of sun . This makes them very susceptible to rot caused by rain , especially during humid weather . regards , Tom .

Edited May 4, 2012 by Evil Genius

[trucha]

I'd think on that one its genetics were tweaked by some mutation. It could be something akin to semimonstrose growth like occurs on Mammillaria bocasana cv. "Fred" (or the less well known cv. "Ethyl" which is a 'Fred' with more cristate tendencies) Its intereststing to me that those heads are not just so numerous but that they stay fairly small.

Lophos naturally like to form clumps when left uninjured but those commonly have a larger head surrounded by smaller ones (that go on to get larger themselves over time) while this one just gets buried in a mass of small crowns. Hence my thinking it could be from a mutation preserved by horticulturalists.

I do not know anything about its origin.

Edited May 5, 2012 by trucha

[Heretic]

Thank you . Interesting . As far as a natural selection survival characteristic , it is very successful . They are everywhere , it seems , but I've seen little literature on them .

[jjsanaam]

I have grown some from seed and they start to shoot little heads out on the sides when the main head is barely 1cm wide...it is crazy.But this particular one was from a caesp. described by the lady whomsold it to me as a 'dwarf' variety. And that just what it looks like, bonsai lophs with the smallest off shoots...

Another caesp variety I have grown form seed ( not described as dwarf ) also started to proliferate small heads after 18 months or so...barely over 1cm wide main head.......

Best description is....they simply grow outwards not downwards....

The downwards. Varieties are classic 1/2/3/4 big heads with a big turnip like tap root,

The outwards are the caesp. Lots and lots heads but not a big/ deep turnip like root structure..

I also have a variety or two in between this categorization. Turnip like roots....not as massive with many, many heads but not as many as classic caesp. So there is some method to the outwards or downwards energy movement hence physical growth.

Hope this helps

[Heretic]

yes , they spread outwards quite quickly , establishing roots as the heads contact soil . Mine grew upwards as well , like small mounds . As a head grew larger it would sprout pups prolifically that would end up covering the original head to the the point that they are no longer visible , then they too vanish beneath their progeny . Rather than single carrot - like roots , it develops lots of smaller multi - roots , corresponding , I guess , to where they made soil contact . I had suspected the seed would grow like " normal " lophs , as cannabis polyploids induced by colchicine are said to revert back to type in subsequent generations , like a way of Nature to protect herself . ] If the caespiatosa breeds true , then it's genes must have been permanently altered , as trucha suggests . I guess this seed growth rules out injury as a cause of the trait . In the tropics the plants benefited from removing the larger heads during the dry season , to allow airing during the wet . The large clones would then take off , but never develop really large roots . Even under a plastic roof , dry , they were really susceptible to humidity . But amazing plants to get to know .

[waterboy 2.0]

http://www.magicactus.com/lw_caespitosa.html

[Chef's Foreskin]

WB with the hook ups again!

[Torsten]

Koehres explained the caespitose thing to me as follows. The caespitose variety is not actually a variety. It can form from any seed of the Loph will species [varieties need to be stable to be called that]. In a natural population he estimates about 20% to be caespitose. Attempts at creating pure caespitose seeds have failed, which is why it does not deserve variety status. These plants may flower a bit later because they have slightly different growth priorities. This is generally written as L.williamsii var caespitosa, but should actually be written as L.williamsii f caespitosa, where 'f' stands for 'forma'.

There is also another caespitose which is indeed a variety because it does nto reproduce from seed and hence all offspring is stable. This is the true L. williamsii var caespitosa . This plant does not have a distinguishable main button but forms a mound of distorted mini buttons where each button is rarely bigger than 10mm. It is not known to flower.

I have grown both of these, but lost my var caespitosa a few years ago without realising just how rare they are. I had it for over 10 years and it never flowered. It was not fast growing and actually stagnated when not divided.

[zelly]

The caespitose variety is not actually a variety. It can form from any seed of the Loph will species

I find this as an interesting statement only in the fact that the variety of jourdaniana that I have is caespitosa in appearance & growth habits whereas a picture I've seen of Haberman's jourdaniana is of a solitary plant, as are all the jourds that whisperz has posted pics of. I suppose one of these days I should grow out the infrequent seeds I get from it & see what pops up.

I've grown bunches of LW caes & have also come to the conclusion there's two basic varieties.

On one variety the heads remain relatively small, and the plant never seems to flower. One of this variety was overflowing a 20 cm pot with no sign of flowers whereas the other variety can flower when the plant is in even the smallest of pots. I've gotten flowers on caes heads no bigger than 2 cm.

And of the flowering type, I've noticed 2 distinct variations, one consistently grows as a gray-green plant, the other is a much truer green to lime green color. Both produce seeds, but I've never grown any out.

[Heretic]

The variety that I had grew heads to around golf ball size , sometimes a little bigger . It did not flower for years , until one extreme wet season when several specimens flowered from the largest heads . Small heads were quite green , turning grey- green as they reached larger size . A couple of years ago I saw small specimens in a nursery at Keysborough , Vic , where I originally obtained them . But nowadays they are locked in a cage , and the price had muliplied at least tenfold ! I just checked WB's link - that's the one , but mine had a vivid pink stripe on the flower , like LW v Fricci [?] . Fascinating site , thank you .

Edited May 6, 2012 by Major Tom

[trucha]

Koehres' comment is quite accurate in that all Lophophoras are, at least potentially, caespitose by nature so no plant has ever been (or could be) properly named as "Lophophora caespitosa".

That said there are horticultural selections called caespitosa that grow as described above. EG shared an image of one a while back that was said to have spent 45 years in one grower's collection and that sort of small headed clump former can be found all around the world in collections (I've seen multiple specimens in the USA and in Oz. Some years back Fujita published an analysis of one raised in Japan).

Peyote is actually supposed to get to look like that as it grows older (but with full sized heads) although some individuals do stay single no matter how old they get. Planchas (ie those multiheaded clumps) over a meter across with dozens of huge heads (50+ in one case) have been reported in nature.

Wherever that smaller headed plant came from, it is not a typical form for any of the Lophophora species hence my suspicion it is a selected cultivar propagated deliberately due to having an unusual form.

BTW, its certain although trivial that, based on molecular work, fricii is not correctly placed within williamsii and is a good and acceptable species on its own right.

[Heretic]

Dr Frank , in his site [ WB's link ] , has placed " Fricci " in the L . Diffusa genus .

[mutant]

its strange you say its 'rare'....

i think its quite common in europe , I was under the impression by seeing many plants sold commercial that it was raised from seed, probably coming from holland.

I am talking about the small head and extreme pupping variety. actually i have quite a lot of them, plenty went around this year.

the big difference is that they flower for me, they were more hesitant last year, but they're flowering for good this year.

because I have grown them more, I saw that they are fundamentally different from true williamsi : they dont make one and large taproot, they grow faster, they prefer pan/shallow pots.

I dont regard them the true williamsis, but they are awesome in appearance!