Thoughts on religion

[nabraxas]

hasn't the sequencing ov the human genome proved the theory ov evolution beyond any doubt?

[Legba]

none of you actually think that mankind is advancing in a spiritual way or evolving, do ya?

[Prophet]

Like I said Flip we all have out beliefs. If you want to believe in your false religion called evolution that is fine by me... so why don't we just kill off all the weak people in the world who prove to be useless and call it natural selection... survival of the fittest? It is a shame that you are judging all christians by the actions of a few and you seem to steriotype every christian as being the same. Religion has not "held sway" over the world, the church has, mainly the roman catholic church the mother of all whores and her harlot daughters.

[Flip]

Bacchant,

Spiritualism and religion are two different things.

I think we would culturally develop spiritually

(read my definition of spirituality, not related to church)

if religions didn't interfere as much as they do

human beings would be far better off.

Religion should if anything, be like drug use.

their goals should be their own obsolescence.

instead, their dealers make muddled addicts out of people

all for profit. (pun here)

[Flip]

That was quick prophet,

 

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Like flip said, "we all have out beliefs"

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When and where did I say that?

 

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If you want to believe in your false religion

 

called evolution that is fine by me...

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evolution is not a religion.

it's a theory based upon what is factual and reasoning.

 

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so why don't we just kill off all the weak people in the world who prove to be useless and call it natural selection...

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Er, "we" do.

human beings do in fact kill others of the species.

when one identifiable group attacks another and removes

it's people from the gene pool... thats altering the species.

usually all for resources (I should need to cite examples)

how about GW Bush? (a devout christain, who was placed into office by the christian right wing radicals)

Who's agenda is Bible and Christian based, and stongly supported by your religious leaders.

He's invaded the middle east, killed hundreds of thousands of people

and is focused upon grabbing their resources for our use.

it's good for the USA tribe (and those related to us) and bad for theirs.

Our tribe has developed a better technological culture and ability.

Trust me, they would all be dead with piplines directly to my doorstep

If that was something that could be gotten away with.

 

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It is a shame that you are judging all christians by the actions of a few and you seem to steriotype every christian as being the same.

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I'm painting with broad strokes

but I do believe I'm right on the money (with links no less)

please give some evidence of support for your positions please.

not quoting some character in a old text.

 

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Religion has not "held sway" over the world, the church has, mainly the roman catholic church the mother of all whores and her harlot daughters.

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Religion and the church are one in the same.

now I could bring up taoists monks and other asian philosophical schools that are often called "religion".

but they are different

our conversation has been about jewish ,catholic islamic religions.

that are all based upon the same texts and premises.

and they do hold sway over history and many peoples.

you really seems to require a history lesson as well as politics.

and once again you have not countered my statements

but rather jumped to new ground.... please hold still.

Otherwise, if you just want to say:

"I'm choosing to live in a willing delusion,

The bible is a fictional work,

that allows me to think I'm associated

with some powerful being and isn't true

- but false and a lie to believe in."

Just say that and I'll leave you alone.

because you'll then be telling the truth.

[ 28. May 2005, 01:15: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Prophet]

i can see how spiritual you really are now Flip..

 

quote:

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it's good for the USA tribe (and those related to us) and bad for theirs.

 

Our tribe has developed a better technological culture and ability.

 

Trust me, they would all be dead with piplines directly to my doorstep

 

If that was something that could be gotten away with.

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what exactly is the USA tribe? are you talking about the anglo-saxons who conquered and killed native peoples because that is how the USA tribe came to be. Now your hypocracy shows since you go off about George Bush and Co. and then you say "Trust me, they would all be dead with piplines directly to my doorstep

If that was something that could be gotten away with." So in other words you are just as bad as George Bush, the only difference is he uses religion to justify what he does.... By their fruits ye shall know them.

[Hagakure]

prophet evolution is a fact - get it into your skull. saying evolution is not factual is like saying the world is flat - thats how proven it is.

where again did you study it?

to further explain this american action thing look at it this way.

you have family i assume and would have a desire to protect them. why do you have a desire to protect them, cause they are your family? well thats a circular answer.

from a genetic point of view it is beneficial to protect your family as they share a similar set of genes to yours. you may not be able to have kids but through protection of your family the genes that make you who you are will be passed on.

meerkats are a classic example - there is generally a lookout meerkat that puts itself at risk standing out in the open looking for any predators. it may die and may pass on no offspring - from an individual passing on their own genes point of view this makes no sense. evolution does not care about individuals though - it is purely about the genes. a meerkat may die but if it protects at least three of its relatives then it has been an acceptable loss to ensure that someone else passes on their genes.

this is good evolutionary behaviour and has been wired into all of us.

when there are two human tribes each are ensuring that their relatives genes are passed on when they kill the competition.

as humans have learned to form whole nations these concepts have not been selected out - we essentially have had pretty similar genes for thousands upon thousands of years now - very few selective pressures.

so when a nation invades another nation it is doing it for its own survival and the survival of the genes within it. america wants to ensure it maintains its powerfull role in the world as this helps ensure their offsprings survival.

even the green movement is about ensuring offspring survival. the idea is to ensure that the world stays in a clean natural state for fuure generations - genes being conserved.

most human behaviour aswell as our looks etc can be explained through evolution.

[Hagakure]

i am not saying that war and murder is a good thing in that post i am merely explaining why it happens.

i think we need to embrace the philosophical lessons that can be learned through looking at our evolutionary history to help us become better people (if we become better people our offspring are more likely to survive :D couldnt resist)

someone was saying about how buddhists completely remove themselves from loved ones etc in more extreme cases?

look at it as removing evolutionary programming.

[-YT-]

prophet....wtf? seriously common sense should prevail in the fact that the THEORY of Evolution is based upon FACT!

It's still sad to see the SWAY religion and the church DO HOLD on the masses and how so many are easy brainwashed/programmed

Remember always question people/everythings motive in these strange times and never doubt yourself!! for a handful know the truth and are fighting for it to be heard

Yo Flip great arguments :D i bet you were in the debating team at school ?

[Prophet]

I thought this was meant to be a discussion about religion but it seems to have degenerated into a debate about relgion and evolution. Since the discussion is going nowhere i don't think i will waste my time responding anymore.

[Endrogen]

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"

sums up my thoughts nicely

[Flip]

Hagakure ,

Well said indeed. Thanks.

Yes, I knew that prophet was trying to bait me with that offering.

The funny thing is that his mind is so narrowed that he can't see

that he's much more apart of the problem than he will allow himself to admit.

One should also note that The US VP Dick Cheney

deeply believes that "war is the natural state of mankind".

conforming to his Hobbesian outlook. wiki link

this says quite a bit about himself and the bush adminstration

Young Tripper,

Thank you, I was never a debater in college..

art, psyc, politics etc.as well as a associates in communications.

I also had a very serious interest in seeking "the true path"

and "enlightnment" that preceded my University years.

While in highschool. I was a self-described "bible packer"....

But a University is intended to make one universal after all

and not confined to the narrow.

I'm still working on improving myself.

Thank you :D

Prophet,

Yes, it has become a thread focused upon religious conditioning.

It is "going nowhere" that you like. ..

Your statements are not justified and backed up,

and you do not stand your ground...

simply because you really aren't taking any that can withstand any examination.

believe me, that I'm not taking my time and wasting it because

I get some joy out of tossing insults.

I'm actually trying to wake you up! and help you take the blinders off.

Endrogen,

Thats sounds nice but it's untrue.

All that statement is for, is to attempt to tie legitimate science

to religion, so that religion can gain sciences standing.

Religion does not care about science at all.

in fact, it has a long standing animosity for it's reasoning power,

as it's debunks their myths and removes their authority based

upon ignorance, fear and threat.

Science itself is a tool and as such, not concerned with religion.

except, it can be used to explain it's existence and

grasp over humanity....

In effect, to see what is real.

[ 28. May 2005, 23:39: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Endrogen]

religion is a pretty ambiguous word..

perhaps it should have been re quoted to say spirituality..

Literally, science can describe life but it can't make you appreciate it.

Science alone can't make a moral choice.

I think that's the angle prophet was taking when he said -

"so why don't we just kill off all the weak people in the world who prove to be useless and call it natural selection... survival of the fittest?"

[faustus]

i dunno, in some ppl new-age spirituality has become the latest incarnation of easily-digestible religious dogma. energised star-tetrahedron chakra healing mineral water has become the new holy water.

this issue with christianity, science and evolution is an interesting one. recently flicked through a christian "science" magazine at the newsagent, it left me quite unsettled. for so much talk of evolution lacking credible scientific evidence it seemed to be quoting the bible a fair bit. if god exists, i really think it would dig its creations questioning things, but seems all you get is an invite to a BBQ of sorts.

it's been good to sit back and watch this thread unfold and the majority here are thinking to themselves "poor prophet, blinded by his religion"... but remember we can all become addicted to our beliefs, and when that happens all of a sudden difficult anomalies are explicable as coincidence, lies or delusions. its very easy to make science the new religion.

[Flip]

Endrogen,

 

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Literally, science can describe life but it can't make you appreciate it.

 

Science alone can't make a moral choice.

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Science is a pragmatic tool... thats it's value.

Well that appreciation stuff resides on our end of things.

Morality? Well thats a framework of cultural conditioning spawned off

of empathy. it's not a human trait by any means

and likely evolved as a beneficial trait (certainly in mammals)

Chimps have culture and empathy for other living things

and can make such "spiritual" judgments, (affection, wonder etc.)

they also make "war" on competing chimp "tribes".

One wonders, what that does to that whole human exclusivity

of having that "soul thing" huh?

Again, it's a case of "science" defining what used to be

simply explained as "god gift stuff"

Most importantly religion would have never allowed

for advancement if it was to have it's way.

Looking backwards and to not move forwards is religions modus operandi.

Back on track

What I think you're saying is" that the implementation

of knowledge are a double edge sword.

what is learned via scientific investigation.

has to me employed wisely and with foresight.

if thats what you're saying... yeah I can totally agree with that.

Twix,

 

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But remember we can all become addicted to our beliefs, and when that happens all of a sudden difficult anomalies are explicable as coincidence, lies or delusions. its very easy to make science the new religion.

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I don't think that "science" can become a religion?

I view it as a tool for gaining understanding.

imo, It is best to have the ability to view any issue from multiple points of perceptive.

Hence one of the reasons why a University education is so important.

Entheogens can also be a tool for acquiring advantageous perspectives

(explaining my forum presence)

But the question that I have to answer has been

"what is the truth?" and what the best way to live?

I found religions promise this, but can't deliver...

offering I've found, only delusions instead.

[ 29. May 2005, 04:03: Message edited by: Flip ]

[Legba]

The Truth is obviously what is so. Not so obviously, it is also. So what?

[Flip]

How about this?

why do we have religions

what is it about mankind that spawns these institutions?

Any thoughts?

[faustus]

"Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and as that natural fear

in children is increased with tales, so is the other."

Francis Bacon

[reptyle]

Flip, i find your inability to see truth in religion as ridiculous as prophets inability to see truth in science. does that mean i must know better than both of you, certainly from your posts that seems to be your reasoning?

youve been saying that people will choose to belive whatever makes their life easiest to live, and that your trying to find "what is the truth?" and what the best way to live?...do you think that science isnt providing you with these things in a deluded and misrepresented sense of reality?

trying to use a limited structure to find the truth is like trying to go to the toilet when your hanging from your feet in a tree.(???)

imo the truth is about manipulating the structures of the mind to acheive a pure state of perception, and eventual freedom from limited structures which we use to feel cosy. its not about doing a monkey dance about whose structure is better.

If someones present understanding of reality is benefiting their eventual attainment of the state then why should anyone have a problem? and who are you to judge whether someone beliefs will benefit them or not?

one day you will decide that many things you belive are infact deluded, as we all do and at that time you will realise that its about the progression of the mind through its structures, not the one is presently holds.

as with the evolution of a species, youve gotta look at the progression to see the benefits not just the single unit.

whats more important, the single celled organism or the monkey with a probe?

2c

[ 30. May 2005, 05:13: Message edited by: reptyle ]

[occidentalis]

Flip:

How about this?

why do we have religions

what is it about mankind that spawns these institutions?

Any thoughts?

I think that the existance and popularity of dogmatic and heirarchical systems of theistic belief/worship such as the judeo-christian religions are based on two factors.

One is the natural, endogenous spiritual drive that many (not all) people have. Especially in less complex and particulary less materialistic social environments than ours. Arguable of course, but I think humans are generally innately good people. They want to be nice to fellow members of whatever biological/cultural/social/political/gender/age group they affiliate with, and sometimes they want to be nice to members of other such groups. The moralistic side of judeochristian religions fits in here by giving them a guide book of how best to do it. Also, they tend to believe that there is

'something more', or some higher power. Is there any culture that does not believe in a god or gods of sorts? Religions tell people that there is such a higher power, who can determine their fate, and if they act in a certain way, that power will smile upon them. In many cases that 'certain way' was a way to keep a society functioning - the 10 commandments are the basic rules needed for a society based on monogamy, ownership, and trading.

Secondly, religions provide an important social matrix which probably evolved from earlier pagan village community systems. They prevent teenagers from acting out their angst against the rest of community and give old people something valuable to do.

[Legba]

perhaps, long ago, man used to be christian/buddist/hindu/whateva in the full sense of the word and we have moved so far away from this that religion is now only a whisper within us. we still have remnants of this level of being in the form of scriptures. too bad that their is virtually no one with enuf understanding to interpret them. follow the gourd.....no follow the sandal.....

[Prophet]

 

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it's been good to sit back and watch this thread unfold and the majority here are thinking to themselves "poor prophet, blinded by his religion"

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My beliefs don't cause blindness. Quite the opposite.

 

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I'm actually trying to wake you up! and help you take the blinders off.

 

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all i can say to that is don't bother trying because i woke up a long time ago.

 

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2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

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Some people seem to be blinded by their own carnal mind and claim to be "spiritual" when infact they are walking after the lusts of their flesh. That is not spirituality. The only spirit they are following is the spirit of this world which is the spirit of the deciever (satan).

PS: i gave up caring what people think a long time ago so if you think making a mockery of my beliefs is going to make me change then think again.

[Hagakure]

why do we have religion is an interesting question.

im sure there are some out there who know more about this then i do so i would like to pose another question.

how has religion evolved?

at one stage we worshipped gods in the belief that they would help us. sacrifices and offerings etc for rain, good harvest, death to enemies etc

at some stage there was the evolution to the next stage of religion. we scientifically (not through modern science but through practical reasoning) probably realised that huge offerings could be made and a drought followed and likewise small offerings could be made and a huge harvest followed.

a period of no offerings was probably trialed and one culture twigged that sacrifices etc are supestitious nonsense.

then we have the idea of the one god in the sky and because their is no reasoning to what happens on earth (children die, evil people live long) this concept "its all part of god mysterious plan" is born.

so whats the next step when we realise that there is no god, no heaven, no hell, no angels, no devils etc

eastern religion probably is a good starting place - we exist in our minds so it is a good place to start mapping if we want to know about ourselves.

no doubt someone out there knows more about the history of religion then me so perhaps they could fill in the gaps. i figure that if we can see how religion has evolved we may have more of a chance at a glimpse of the future.

and to prophet.

there is a fundamental difference between you and most of us that are attacking your views. the difference is that we have approached all of the possibilities with an open, vulnerable mind. only when you approach these issues in such a manner can you evaluate what is indeed the truth.

you on the other hand have made up your mind and are looking at all of the other possibilities with your mind closed. like that zen story i realise that our arguing with you is like trying to pour tea into an already full cup.

[occidentalis]

Hagakure:

how has religion evolved?

at one stage we worshipped gods in the belief that they would help us.  sacrifices and offerings etc for rain, good harvest, death to enemies etc

at some stage there was the evolution to the next stage of religion.  we scientifically (not through modern science but through practical reasoning) probably realised that huge offerings could be made and a drought followed and likewise small offerings could be made and a huge harvest followed.

a period of no offerings was probably trialed and one culture twigged that sacrifices etc are supestitious nonsense.

It's difficult to talk about all religions and cultures in general, but I don't think this applies in the majority of cases. Most 'primitive' religions are systems of rules and guidelines pertaining to the relationship between humans and the earth. They are ecological rules. What science describes as systems in the environment they describe as spirits. There is certainly lots of ceremony and hocus pocus as there is in all religious and organised spiritual practices but even these may have purposes (that is if you don't believe their stated purposes exist).

[faustus]

think man's early experiences with dreaming, ie a state of consciousness where one can seemingly exist independent of the body, would have greatly influenced concepts of afterlife. after all it's hard to miss the similarities betwen sleep and death

still don't think we've evolved far beyond the superstitious phase of rituals that attempt to gain favour with some omnipotent, omniscient being. prayer is probably the most obvious one, although granted many people no longer see it in this light. though its interesting that in intense prayer, nuns can deactivate the same parts of the brain implicated in deep meditative states.

straying off topic but there's the story of the buddha recalling an experience in a previous life: he was one a boat that was sinking and everyone prayed to god to save them. he was the only one to jump off, swim to shore and survive, everyone else went with the boat. the first important step is believing in a god that grants no favours. but then maybe the last step is to realise the fruitlessness of speculating about the existence of god.