Magic mushrooms may aid depression, study finds

[faustus]

care to stroke mine instead?

[qualia]

nah, it got cold down there so i put it back.

[Distracted]

This study reminded me of how recent drug bashing studies are presented in the media quite often.

Low sample rate and posting hypotheses as fact. These guys used a sample rate of 30, which is better than some studies that will use 10 people and get in the news saying weed makes you crazy!~"

psychology is about twisting and skewing statistics to make your model fit your hypothesis, or your hypothesis fit your model Studies with small sample rates always worry me, the smaller the sample the more an exclusion of an outlier will affect the results.

They talk about how mushrooms can bring back positive memories... they don't talk about it's ability to bring back negative memories. TBH I thought a lot of therapy was based around coming to grips with negative memories so you can move on, not focusing on positive ones to feel happy while you're high :/. Maybe that's more for anxiety disorders rather than depression though

Also the readings were done during the high... so they measured that people aren't as depressed as they are when they're not high(if the activity of the medial prefrontal cortex has a direct correlation with depressive thoughts, i'm not sure but i don't think it's usually that black and white). To me what really counts are the readings 6, 12 and 24 months later. Lots of people make promises to themselves of leading a better life during psychadelics and during the afterglow... but even one month on for a lot of people nothing has really changed.

That's my view really, as i said in my first post it all needs a lot more study. These are only hypothesis' which could be proven wrong, I think the media is too quick to post these sorts of findings. Although it works in our favour this time, this sorta thing should be viewed as pro-drug propaganda.

[qualia]

well, i wouldn't view the study in light of the article, media is notorious for spinning things how they think will best sell.

i also don't see the study as being pro drug in any way. unless you mean the smh article, where i suppose it's more that way but still don't see it as advocating drug use at all. it could just be me, but i see fairfax papers as taking a decidedly "left" view with social issues, whether just through the editors personal views or whether they're trying to pick up readership who wouldn't be reading the right leaning news ltd. papers.

[Distracted]

yeah i was attacking the article more than the study really.

I think it's pro drug in that it's talking about the removal of a negative aspect of their personality using a drug that can be bought from the streets. this can lead to self medication which 'promotes' drug use.

You could be right about it just being the editor slipping something in, or gaining a new readership... it's not the first time media has posted about a positive study anyway.

As far as i know the main problem with getting positive result drug studies is funding. Now that Richard Branson is fighting to decriminilise drugs I wonder if he's started funding a few groups for some favourable studies.

ok here's some of the cool stuff in the study

These results may have implications beyond explaining how

psilocybin works in the brain by implying that the DMN is crucial

for the maintenance of cognitive integration and constraint under

normal conditions. This finding is consistent with Aldous Huxley’s

“reducing valve” metaphor (34) and Karl Friston’s “free-energy

principle” (35), which propose that the mind/brain works to constrain

its experience of the world.

I quite liked huxley's mind at large explanation, I wonder if anyone has done a similar study to this on DMT that could show even more decreased metabolic activity in the DMN(default-mode network).

I find it odd that the study gave a uniformed dose to all members,,, I thought it was more accurate to give a dose/weight.

[SunChaser]

Some very interesting opinions and yes, it would be a little hypocritical to automatically accept professor David nutts work as infallible. Although, let's not forget that he is one of the only researchers out there that seemingly gets any credibility within the media on the issue of looking at currently illegal drugs in a more scientific manner. In other words, let's not be so quick to bag out one of our only allies, who has power within political circles.

Another thing that I think is important to point out is that depression is clearly a very complex condition, which is why one antidepressant that works extremely well for one person, does basically nothing for another. 

For example, from my personal experience with SSRI's like zoloft, I do personally think they would be beneficial to a lot of people that suffer from depression, which is caused by extremely bad memories from the past, since they did seem to help me concentrate on the future, rather than dwell on the past.

But I think you will find there is a lot of people out there that just get depressed simply because of the repetitive nature of modern day life. In my opinion SSRI'S and MAOI'S are completely useless to most of these individuals and could probably actually just worsen there symptoms in the long term. Since (to put it simply) they need a fire to burn, rather than needing a fire to be extinguished, which I think is what most of today's antidepressant medication does. 

Let's face it, our jails are full of these kind of people who just simply need something new to stimulate there minds, which modern day medications simply have not been able to achieve. 

Although I doubt that psychedelics like psilocybin or LSD are the direct answer for these particular people, I do truly belief that appropriate medications can be developed, from the direct research of how these compounds interact with our natural brain chemistry, which would be of extreme benefit in helping these individuals overcome there depressive nature. Not to mention the development of many other medications for all the other psychological conditions that could possibly come from the research from psychedelic drugs. 

I also truly belief that people like Timothy Leary are directly responsible for the fear and ignorance of the last 40 or so years, within modern day science, when it comes to these incredibly significant chemicals.

Which hopefully will help people understand why I got so hot under the collar, about the ideas expressed in the threads started by our friend Greg and his new religion (until I realized that the majority of people were not going to take it seriously anyway).

To sum up, it would not surprise me one little bit, if in a few generations professor David nutt has the title of the pioneer of a whole new class of synthetic medications that greatly benefit many debilitating psychological conditions within our society.

Peace

[chilli]

There is a story about another study by Nutt here:

http://news.discover...ion-122301.html

It mentions the study that this thread refers to at the end, but rather than "recalling positive memories" it refers to that study as "guiding people to think positively about events in their past while they were under the influence of psilocybin led to a greater sense of well-being two weeks later."

Edited January 28, 2012 by chilli

[qualia]

^^

thanks for that. much better article than the smh one (but no surprises there. interesting to see the comment about not recommending it outside of a clinical setting. i guess he would need to be cautious to not seem like a drug advocate.

[myco]

i have one question some of you may be able to help with

do you think it would be bad for someone to take mushrooms when they are suffering from depression and taking meds for it ???

[dionysus]

depends what the meds were myco

[myco]

the usual anti depressants

i guess i'd have to check with my friend to find out exactly wat they are

as he's interested in this and willing to try anything

he's got severe anxiety though and doesnt like to take drugs as it causes him anxiety

he's basically suffering agoraphobia wich causes his extreme anxiety and is suffering from depression due to the agoraphobia

so its probly not realy a good idea anyway

[dionysus]

there are many different 'anti depressant' drugs which do many different things, some would interact with psilocybin/psilocin (like MAOIs for example) so which chemical your friend is taking is important information for someone to be able to tell you if it is okay, legality aside.

i certainly wouldn't want to ingest any considerable amount of 'magic' mushrooms if i were worried about it interacting with my severe anxiety, that sounds like a recipe for how to have a bad time, but perhaps some benefit could be gained from less than visionary doses for depression sufferers like there is for sufferers of cluster headaches etc

[myco]

yeh i kinda thought the same thing about the anxiety

i think if it was ok to take em and he were to take them it definately would only be a very small dose

he's been reading about some similar things to the articles posted here about mushrooms and depression and was asking me about it recently

i kinda thought it wasnt the best idea

but then began to think maybe a very small dose could be kinda beneficial

he's had a really really rough life and i hate to see him like this as he was always so happy before

and is still very young

[faustus]

SSRI antidepressants will kill the effects of serotonergic hallucinogens considerably.

i can't remember who said it, but there was some cunt who decided to quit his antidepressants cos they were fucking with his visuals. now that's what i call dedication, biatchez!

[chnt]

antidepressants = chemotherapy for the brain.

[faustus]

antidepressants = chemotherapy for the brain.

chemotherapy results in indescriminate death of dividing cells.

SSRI antidepressants actually stimulate neurogenesis, i.e. neuronal growth. in fact, the antidepressant effects of SSRIs are dependent on its ability to stimulate brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

so your analogy is totally chat and couldn't be further from the truth. you know very well that psychological teabagging is the more appropriate description for SSRIs.

[faustus]

PS here's the second paper that came out:

full article: https://sites.google.com/site/806246/BJP-2011-103309.pdf

[chnt]

chemotherapy results in indescriminate death of dividing cells.

SSRI antidepressants actually stimulate neurogenesis, i.e. neuronal growth. in fact, the antidepressant effects of SSRIs are dependent on its ability to stimulate brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

so your analogy is totally chat and couldn't be further from the truth. you know very well that psychological teabagging is the more appropriate description for SSRIs.

 

i actually have no idea what they do to the brain, but from personal experience, they certainly fucked up my mind.

[qualia]

a "doctor" put me on ssri's once. worst feeling of soul sapping death i've ever had.

[chnt]

yes, i vowed never again long ago

[chilli]

he's got severe anxiety though and doesnt like to take drugs as it causes him anxiety

he's basically suffering agoraphobia wich causes his extreme anxiety and is suffering from depression due to the agoraphobia

so its probly not realy a good idea anyway

 

Your friend could just start with a really low, even sub-threshold dose to get over the anxiety a bit and work his way up to getting some very slight effects that will only last an hour or two. Then slowly increase the dose until he becomes accustomed to it. But if you are in a place of great anxiety, it is probably best to work on that first, before using any psychedelics.

This gradual exposure technique is very effective with things that produce anxiety and would work with agoraphobia as well.. find the threshold of what causes anxiety, and begin to gradually, in a controlled way, expose yourself to low doses of anxiety. Then, as the body begins to readjust and realizes nothing terrible has happened, you can work your way up to more intimidating situations, but it must be done very patiently and very gradually or it will make the anxiety worse, as each time you have a panic attakc and avoid the stimulus the body remembers and tries to tell you to do the same thing next time.

I feel your friend's pain, and can recommend a book called the Cognitive Behavioral Workbook for Anxiety by William J. Knaus that is really helpful in explaining and walkin g you through different methods for overcoming all kinds of anxiety.

Edited January 31, 2012 by chilli

[myco]

thank you chilli

thats very helpful

apreciate it very much

[chilli]

thank you chilli

thats very helpful

apreciate it very much

 

No worries man, I know how debilitating agoraphobia and anxiety can be.. but yeah its important to start small and go really gradually. It also helps to learn to accept panic attacks and don't try and fight them, as hard as that sounds it is possible with practice. If your mate ever wants to chat about it, feel free to PM me.

Edited January 31, 2012 by chilli

[Belching]

i have one question some of you may be able to help with

do you think it would be bad for someone to take mushrooms when they are suffering from depression and taking meds for it ???

 

SSRIs/SNRIs make it weaker, NDRIs are okay, MAOIs interact in a harmful way.

Stay safe!

MDMA and LSD had promising studies related to depression treatment, before they were outlawed. It's awesome that the mushroom study has been allowed to go on, and that there's been hopeful results. I imagine that if it were made into a treatment, there would be a lot of red tape.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Belching

[incognito]

I would not touch shrooms with a twenty foot pole when depressed/ down. I've done it before never again. If I had control of my body suicide would have been inevitable.