QLD LAW - Bongs, pipes & Hookah's/Shisha's

[spice-of-life]

Hi Guys, I have been trying to come up with a nicer way to smoke that abides by QLD law. Currently I smoke my tobacco & Northern Lights Primo Incense(Best legal blend left for QLD'ers) as a cigarette but am wondering if it's legal to smoke incense & tobacco through any other means like a pipe, Bong, Shisha or Hookah. It would not be used for cannabis or any illegal substance, only tobacco & incense which is currently legal in QLD. I have a funny feeling that bongs may be a no-go here in nannyland.

Thanks-

[spice-of-life]

 

Looking at getting one of these providing there legal up here...

[Psylo]

Does that take water in the chamber ? If not, I guess it's a pipe.

Here's a fucking stupid thing about regulations.... In NSW it is 100% LEGAL to buy, sell & use a hookah (21/01/2011 7:20am EDIT BY AUTHOR: This appears to be an incorret statement), An implement in which you draw smoke through a water filtration system. So legal in fact that there an amazing number of restaurants popping up that are openly acting as a "Hookah Bar". We're talking menus with a full page on shisha selection, bigger than many beer selection menus at licenced restaurants. A nice thing for people to consume on a social night out, instead of drinking.

E-Bay, our dear friends at E-Bay. They have a different idea on the hookah. Try and list one, and it will be removed under the premise of policy:

MC036 eBay Listing Removed: Drugs and Drug Paraphernalia

Uh, what ? They will not accept any arguement that induces a suggestion of cultural prejudice on their part. Quite simply "dems the rules, and ya got ta stick to 'em". The amble behind MC036 is as follows:

It is against eBay policy to list items that are primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, concealing or using a controlled substance. A partial list of these banned items includes: pipes made from metal, wood (except briar), acrylic, glass, stone, plastic or ceramic; water pipes, hookahs, chamber pipes, carburetor pipes, electric pipes, ice pipes, bongs and chillums. Although many of these items may be legal for sale outside of eBay, they are not permitted on eBay. In addition, eBay will remove any listing that appears to be attempting to circumvent our policy by describing the drug paraphernalia as, for instance, a "vase", or "art". Drug paraphernalia, is defined in the New South Wales Drug Misuse and Trafficking Act of 1985, as items that are primarily intended or designed for use in manufacture or use of a prohibited drug. This includes bongs or water pipes. Please also note that links to websites containing these items are not allowed. In addition, plastic syringes are not permitted if needles are included, or if sellers make reference to needle gauge.

If they are citing current legislation, then they consider the Hookah to be in implement that is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacture or use of a prohibited drug. Clearly the NSW law enforcement agencies, council chambers, health department, and whatever public body that regulates the operation of a commercial restaurant don't give a flying fuck. By considered observation & own judgement, this would suggest that hookahs are 100% LEGAL to buy, sell & use (21/01/2011 7:20am EDIT BY AUTHOR: This appears to be an incorret statement)

E-Bay specifically use the supporting prop of the NSW Drug Misuse and Trafficking Act to bear further weight to their policy. Or at least their interperetation of 'drug paraphwachamacallit'. However in their delivery of this statement (as explaination of a pulled listing), this might tell the reader that Hookas are illegal. Could they be in breach of citation, or are they correct? I find it very hard to believe that hookahs are illegal, when there are more than 20 venues to 'get ya smoke on', all very public, no dirty cushioned back-room, but right on the streetside.

For someone who wishes to remain completely legal in everything they do, it would strike some confusion within their soul.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Psylo Dread

[spice-of-life]

Dude, that was an amazing reply. Thankyou!! I think the safest thing I can do is buy a pipe from a licensed tobacconist in QLD and at the same time get him to write a short letter simply stating that "this pipe is legal for use in QLD for use with tobacco & legal incense blends" dated with a name, signature, buisness name and contact phone number.

[Psylo]

Dude, that was an amazing reply. Thankyou!! I think the safest thing I can do is buy a pipe from a licensed tobacconist in QLD and at the same time get him to write a short letter simply stating that "this pipe is legal for use in QLD for use with tobacco & legal incense blends" dated with a name, signature, buisness name and contact phone number.

 

Yea why not ? If one business (E-Bay) can make a statement about water pipes that isn't aligned with the actual Act, the so too should another business (your tobacconist) be able to publish a statement.

While banning a completely legal item for listing in Australia without merit to the common usage, being primarily for the smoking of legal incendiary product, E-Bay consider the following listing to be acceptable.

http://www.ebay.com....=item4159e35298

For those not bothered with following the link, or for when it expires, the summary of the product, sold in Australia, is:

A herb grinder

A herb grinder with the word 'muller' in the title description

A herb grinder with the model name of "Space Case"

A herb grinder listing that assures discreet shipping

It may be my dim evaluation of this listing, but to me, this screams "dope fiend parafarwhoseit" in contravention of the primarily intended or designed for use in manufacture or use of a prohibited drug statement that we enjoyed reading earlier. Yet they allow it to be listed by an Australian seller.

But wait, what the fuck are you on about, Psylo, herb grinders are legal. Of course they are. But so are Hookahs. (in NSW) (I assume).(21/01/2011 7:20am EDIT BY AUTHOR: This appears to be an incorret statement)

Edited January 20, 2012 by Psylo Dread

[chnt]

i think everyone should just buy a glass vaporgenie.

[Psylo]

^^^ haha I sense affiliation with the movement. Are you a glass blower by trade ?

[chnt]

nah, i've never had anything to do with the manufacture of any type of glass and possibly never will be.

i just believe that good things should get praised and bad things should get the opposite.

i really love the sherlock glass vaporgenie and cant imagine a better vape or smoking apparatus.

you can read on the vaporgenie website that all sherlock GVGs are made by a glass blower by the name of high guy or something like that.

[Torsten]

(Best legal blend left for QLD'ers)

 

There is no such thing. All currently available cannabinoids fall under the Qld analogues clause which states that any compound with similar effect AND structural similarity is covered. This is a law from 2008, not the new even more sweeping laws expected in March.

The cops won't go after indiviuals, but I certainly wouldn't be hording it publically or showing it off.

I am a bit vague on smoking implement laws, but I thought they applied to selling rather than possession. I am pretty sure the Qld bong laws were brought in under the tobacco act and not the drug act. That means quietly possessing one is probably not a big deal, but I know that selling and MAKING them is a pretty major offence. ie it looks like it is safer to buy one from interstate rather than makin one yourself.

[Torsten]

Here's a fucking stupid thing about regulations.... In NSW it is 100% LEGAL to buy, sell & use a hookah, An implement in which you draw smoke through a water filtration system.

Not quite. In fact not at all. The laws prohibiting water pipes were never rescinded in NSW. In the mid 90's the police minister decidd to give cops 'discretionary powers' so that they could decide themselves whether they wanted to bust you for a bong or not [very handy if they need leverage]. This was to reduce paperwork as the courts were letting most people off with a slap on the wrist anyway. The unexpected effect this had was that suddenly bong sellers ERRONEOUSLY thought it was legal to sell bongs and this industry exploded in NSW. The sudden explosion made it futile for the cops to do anything and within a couple of months they gave up as there were more new shops stocking bongs than they could bust [even though they tried pretty good for a little while].

There has NEVER been an exemption for hookas in the waterpipe laws! In fact in the 80s and early 90s they were prosecuted just the same as bongs.

And as there has been no law change, only a policy change, ebay is quite right in their interpretation of the law.

However, ebay doesn't have to follow the law as long as it stay within it. ie they can at their discretion put any limits they want. It is a private company and has a family friendly policy. As such there is no point arguing with them. They also have a policy that if an item is illegal in one state then they will not accept it in any state. Again they are not consistent with this, but that is their policy.

The monopoly of ebay & paypal is very dangerous to this community. You might notice that most USA ethnobotany sellers do not accept paypal. That's because most of them have had their accounts closed - often their funds frozen for many months. Just recently a big ethnobot seller had his account closed and funds frozen for 6 months and told he has no recourse, all for mentioning kava and iboga. he didn't even sell these items, but simply hosted information pages on them.

I had my paypal account frozen because I used to sell small pipes which paypal deemed to be drug pipes. offering these for sale to USA customers is against their policy so they shut my australian account down. I immediately removed the item, but it took 3 weeks to get my account back.

welcome to a world where monopoly companies make the rules, not your government.

[Psylo]

Not quite. In fact not at all. The laws prohibiting water pipes were never rescinded in NSW. In the mid 90's the police minister decidd to give cops 'discretionary powers' so that they could decide themselves whether they wanted to bust you for a bong or not [very handy if they need leverage]. This was to reduce paperwork as the courts were letting most people off with a slap on the wrist anyway. The unexpected effect this had was that suddenly bong sellers ERRONEOUSLY thought it was legal to sell bongs and this industry exploded in NSW. The sudden explosion made it futile for the cops to do anything and within a couple of months they gave up as there were more new shops stocking bongs than they could bust [even though they tried pretty good for a little while].

 

Do you think this to be the case? If anything, the past 20 years has seen these discretionary powers force bongs back into the cupboard/behind a curtain, but hookahs have exploded onto the scene. I can think of two Sydney suburbs alone that would have a combined total of 20 shops proudly displaying a range of hookahs.

While enjoying a few out of the Agung fun snorkel last night, my partner came up with a possible reasoning that promotes a viewpoint that a hookah isnt comparable to a bong at all,because it is a vapouriser, not an implement for combustable matter. Therefore not illegal drug paraphernalia in the manner which a bong is defined (21/01/2011 7:20am EDIT BY AUTHOR: This appears to be an incorret statement). As a secondary observation, it was suggested as the reason why hookah is openly consumed in eating areas, and in some cases indoors because strictly speaking it's not smoking, but vaping.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Psylo Dread

[Psylo]

Although, to argue against my own statement above, the current edition of the Drug Misuse & Trafficking Act 1985 states the following (while not mentioning hookah per se, this could be determined as an inclusion of hookah by definition)

waterpipe means:

(a) a device capable of being used for the administration of a

prohibited drug, by means of the drawing of smoke or fumes (resulting from the heating or burning of the drug) through water

or another liquid

Interesting to note that in E-Bay's statement on the Act, the term "primarily intended" does not appear once in the definitions.Maybe Im looking at the wrong document.

NSW Drug.pdf

NSW Drug.pdf

NSW Drug.pdf

[chnt]

as far as i know hookahs are not vapourisers, in that they combust the tobacco rather than vapourising it.

please correct me if i'm wrong

[Psylo]

as far as i know hookahs are not vapourisers, in that they combust the tobacco rather than vapourising it.

please correct me if i'm wrong

 

Well, not really. You place your shisha into the cone, cover the cone with perforated foil, and place hot coals on top of the foil. The heat source is never in direct contact with the shisha, so it doesn't burn in a manner you would expect from a bong & flame source method.

[Psylo]

[chnt]

http://www.fitsugar.com/Hookahs-vs-Cigarettes-746612

http://www.thehookahlounge.org/2006/06/30/is-smoking-a-hookah-bad-for-your-health/

http://www.marijuana.com/vaporizers/80713-vaporizer-hookah.html

[Torsten]

hookas were always classed as waterpipes and were certainly prosecuted in the 80's.

The change in hooka policy has two reasons. One is that magistrates don't convict hooka owners anymore because convictions are hard when it is possible for the defendant to prove that there was no illegal intent. once judges stop giving meaningful sentences the prosecutors stop bothering with prosecutions. There is also a risk for a case to go to appeal and for the prosecution to lose, in which case all potheads can just have hookas at home as the law would be effectively struck down.

The main reason why hookas are regarded as legal yet generally not displayed are the NSW tobacco laws which restrict the display of smoking implements and paraphernalia. The fines for displaying hookas are pretty stiff. The shops that still do probably aren't aware of the laws. To sell these items in NSW you need a tobacconist license. These cost a bit and are cancelled with any offence, eg displaying.

[Psylo]

Before I comment further, I should clarify three things

1. I am contunuing this discussion, not as an arguement (I kinow how my words here are often interpreted as such) but out of general interest.

2. I am not an authority on legal issues. Anyone reading my posts should consider it as general discussion, and not relied upon for legal advice.

3. My observations are only of the NSW hookah scene, NSW retailers etc

Right, now onto a few things.

The change in hooka policy has two reasons.

 

It's not a change in policy though, is it ? If I'm understanding the gist of your earlier statements, your statements suggest that it's nothing more than the leniency in law enforcement's discretionery powers.

One is that magistrates don't convict hooka owners anymore because convictions are hard when it is possible for the defendant to prove that there was no illegal intent. once judges stop giving meaningful sentences the prosecutors stop bothering with prosecutions.

 

Or, it may be that to enforce the law, it would be viewed as a culturally insensitive action. Most hookah lounges & hookah retailers are concentrated in areas of significant Islamic population. They boys & girls don't go out and get on the booze, so this is their primary vice. I'm sure that front-line law enforcement agencies have better things to do than bust legitimate tokers.... such as break up fights between pisshead anglo-Aussies at the pub.

It would be hard to prove illegal intent, because by & large, there is no illegal intent (we are both speaking of the material smoked, not the paraphernalia clause)

There is also a risk for a case to go to appeal and for the prosecution to lose, in which case all potheads can just have hookas at home as the law would be effectively struck down.

 

WIth the widespread availability of hookahs today, I don't believe there's a spike in marijuana users turning on to the bubbly. It's cumbersome & a time consuming to setup a session, a steady supply of hot coals is required, and it's an accident waiting to happen due to the designs low barycentre, making it easy to tip, and scatter red-hot coals over your carpet.

Apart from that, marijuana users are hardly going to give a damn about possessing an illegal hookah when they have illegal bongs !

The main reason why hookas are regarded as legal yet generally not displayed are the NSW tobacco laws which restrict the display of smoking implements and paraphernalia. The fines for displaying hookas are pretty stiff. The shops that still do probably aren't aware of the laws. To sell these items in NSW you need a tobacconist license. These cost a bit and are cancelled with any offence, eg displaying.

 

I feel I should reiterate my earlier comment regarding the display of these devices. In some areas of Sydney, to suggest that hookahs are generally not displayed is a misnomer. In Bankstown (an area with significant Muslim population), I am now guessing that there's 20 places I could take you to that openly & publicy display them. These include tobacconists, general stores, cafe's, even sweets shops. In some instances, their products would exceed 50 units in any one shop. In Parramatta (also lots of Muslims), there are more & more hookah venues popping up, because it's quite trendy & fashionable to do dining with friends and having a smoke. In other areas such as Lakemba (where 22% of the suburb speak Arabic) & Auburn (the location of Sydney's largest Mosque), hookahs are also publicly displayed everywhere. It's a big call to suggest that so many outlets would be unaware of the laws. I even think that some Westfield super-malls have tobacconist tenants that display hookahs (I will verify this later). Westfields corporation are notoriously tough on dictating terms of display to their tenants in order to fit in with their projected image, and keep an eagle eye on every shop on the premises.

Regardless of my previous comment of combustion device vs vapourising device, there's no denying that a hookah is a waterpipe, by any definition. I'm certain that the Road Rules act still states jaywalking to be illegal, but no-one is being busted for it. It's common to see front line law enforcement agents to jaywalk all the tiime. If hookahs are not excempt in this day & age, I'm assuming the priority for enforcing the Drug Act is close to non existent.

How should we view the lax enforcement of the Heath Authority inspectors, who have an agenda in enforcing compliance to public smoking regulations? There are at least a couple of well-known hookah venues that not only allow hookah usage amongst diners (with no smoke-free area) but also in areas defined as indoors (le less than 75% open-air space). Is there a discretionary leniency in the enforcement of a regulation which has nothing to do with the Drug Act, but a matter of public health ? While we cannot deny the definition of 'water pipe', the devil may be in the detail. Could it be that 'smoking' cannot be defined unless combustable material is evident ? The shisha (made up of roughly 1/4 each of tobacco, molasses, glycerine & fruit, although often as little as 10% tobacco) does not burn, therefore it is not combustible when used in a hookah. It's a goopy, sticky mess before the start of a session, and it's a goopy sticky mess at the conclusion of a session . Admittedly, its dryer after a session, but the expired material is still present in the bowl/cone. Scientifically, is the resultant pollution classed as smoke, or an extremely thick vapour?

This isnt relevant to NSW (or the OP's QLD query - sorry mate) but as a discussion piece, here's a 2009 article on Victoria's growing scene, that is interesting. In true journalistic uselessness, they mention a loophole but dont elaborate on what the loophole is. Does anyone know what the loophole is ?

http://www.theage.co...90606-bz80.html

Some key points:

A threefold increase in hookah use in the past year (of the publishing date)

80 (eighty!) licenced venues offering hookah services

QUIT Victoria are aware of the activity

Smoking Hookah indoors is allowed, but smoking cigarettes isnt allowed !

Incidentally, the propaganda being thrown around about one session being equivalent to hundreds of cigarettes is a clever scare tactic. The key consideration is that one session contains the equivalent nicotine to under two cigarettes ! Most smokers who are on a night out are going to be smoking more than two cigarettes in an hour. Although to measure the smoke/steam/vapour by the litre, they are probably correct. It's hardly the same as smoking a hundred cigarettes though, which would seriously harm a human.

[Aubergine]

Psylo just to quickly add another location. A Hookah bar / restaurant recently opened up in the heart of crows nest (think middle class predominantly anglo australian suburb) full of trendy cafes and what not. Theres at least two dozen units proudly displayed there and usually at least 4 - 5 setup on the tables outside.

I've also seen units displayed throughout other suburbs on the north shore as well. Places like chatswood, willoughy, roseville... They're everywhere at the moment.

Frankly im shocked there hasn't been any backlash from the local, often rather xenophobic upper middle class bunch round here

I've been curious as to the legalities of it all as well, I've been under the impression that any waterpipes / bongs were legal in NSW. I guess that isn't the case?

Edited January 21, 2012 by Aubergine

[Psylo]

Well there ya go. Not too many Muslims on that side of the coathanger (I lived in Dalleys Rd, Crowie for a few years) but the trend is reaching new social groups.

Definitely going to check out the northside hookah scene there in the next couple of weeks. I'm often in Chatswood area during afternoon business hours. Let me know if you want to catch up for a smoke vapour session

[Psylo]

the local, often rather xenophobic upper middle class bunch round here

You're forgetting about Mosman's "Cultural Diversity"

 

[Aubergine]

For sure man! Would love to meet up, just shoot me a line sometime. Gimme at least a week or two to get over this flu though. haha.

Awwww. I remember this chasers clip! Classic!

[Torsten]

I am contunuing this discussion, not as an arguement (I kinow how my words here are often interpreted as such) but out of general interest.

LOL, i can tell the difference.

It's not a change in policy though, is it ? If I'm understanding the gist of your earlier statements, your statements suggest that it's nothing more than the leniency in law enforcement's discretionery powers.

well, changes in law enforcement approach are still 'policy', but you're right that it is important to understand the difference between laws and leniency. The bong discretionary powers have always annoyed me becuase they give the population the feeling they have a freedom while they in fact don't. And that freedom can be removed simply by a change in government or even minister, or commissioner.

I feel that both the 15 year old relaxation of bong law enforcement AND the more recent look-the-other-way policy with hookas is a matter of policy and hence can be changed at any time, without notice, and without democratic process.

Or, it may be that to enforce the law, it would be viewed as a culturally insensitive action.

The cultural aspect is definitely one of the issues that would prevent hooka prosecutions because no magistrate is going to bother convicting someone who has a cultural background with it at a time when a bong stoner is also likely to walk.

It would be hard to prove illegal intent, because by & large, there is no illegal intent (we are both speaking of the material smoked, not the paraphernalia clause)

This is where it gets a bit tricky. I know people who won court cases for bongs in the 80's with the defence that the bongs were not for smoking pot. One person had asthma and a 'prescription' from her herbalist to smoke a particular herb mix this way. No trace of THC was found on the used bong and the case was dismissed. So even with the blanket old laws the judiciary looked at intent to determine guilt under the paraphernalia clause even though there was no such requirement.

I feel I should reiterate my earlier comment regarding the display of these devices. In some areas of Sydney, to suggest that hookahs are generally not displayed is a misnomer. In Bankstown (an area with significant Muslim population), I am now guessing that there's 20 places I could take you to that openly & publicy display them. These include tobacconists, general stores, cafe's, even sweets shops. In some instances, their products would exceed 50 units in any one shop. In Parramatta (also lots of Muslims), there are more & more hookah venues popping up, because it's quite trendy & fashionable to do dining with friends and having a smoke. In other areas such as Lakemba (where 22% of the suburb speak Arabic) & Auburn (the location of Sydney's largest Mosque), hookahs are also publicly displayed everywhere. It's a big call to suggest that so many outlets would be unaware of the laws. I even think that some Westfield super-malls have tobacconist tenants that display hookahs (I will verify this later). Westfields corporation are notoriously tough on dictating terms of display to their tenants in order to fit in with their projected image, and keep an eagle eye on every shop on the premises.

we looked into hookas and the tobacco mixes when we opened koda as this was something we were considering. The hookas are DEFINITELY regared as smoking implements amd hence must not be displayed unless you have a tobacco licensed premises eg tobacconist. It is not difficult to get these licenses, so really, any shop could apply for one and many non-tobacconist shops would probably consider this in an area where consumption is great enough to make i worthwhile. We were told by our supplier that the inspectors indeed enforce the display rules, however, I think this applies to sales only [not use].

The tobacco is a bit more complicated. under federal law it isn't tobacco unless it contains a certain amount of tobacco. A lot of the shisha blends are actually exempt. Under NSW law it seemed that any mix that contains ANY tobacco is regarded as tobacco and hence falls udner the rules of the tobacco laws. Don't forget though that there are lots of blends that do not contain ANY tobacco! The effect this has is that the inspectors might be tired of trying to bust cafes that offer shisha only to find that the blend doesn't contain any tobacco. Or at least the packet that is shown to them doesn't ;)

Or maybe the inspectors have given up. Maybe there was a big push initially to force compliance, but now they don't have the manpower and hence rely on sporadic prosecutions rather than broad surveillance. Don't forget NSW is pretty broke and this would be one branch of public service that's not regarded as important by the liberal government.