Vining Piper speceis discussion

[kadakuda]

OK, I admit i don't know if "vining" is a real word, so in case it isn't i mean members of the Piper genus that are vines or are climbing in habit. Just cause I teach English, doesn't mean i really know English ;)

onward.

The last 1-2 years i have been colelcting a lot vines, one thing i have really gotten attractd to is Piper species.

This year while in Thailand i got to find some wild Piper sp. (locals called it wild pepper) that was used in both cooking (cooking some Thai dish with the leaf and eating it) and also as a "wild" betel leaf. The guy who turned me onto this as a betel leaf substitute was an american expat living in thailand with his thai wife and child. He was informing me a lot about the stuff they do there, and said this was used as a betel nut leaf as well, but "some people get an allergic reaction". I take that kind of sentence with a grain of salt and often assume this with ingested things to mean "get sick". I went for a hike through the forest to collect snail shells and leaf cause i couldn't find lime (later i foudn lime and didnt need the shells) and I tried this wild betel leaf. I didnt get sick and foudn it comparable to the betel nut i chew here in Taiwan with P. betle. But certainly different. The aroma/taste was just as strong as the P. betle i am accustomed to here, though very different. It was sweeter and more or less cinnamon like...in fact, camphor comes to mind from the C. camphora trees i have smelled here in Taiwan, but not quite the same. I did collect a couple cuttings of this plant and brought it back home, so I am currently growing it, its just not big yet. So pics to come when its bigger and more ok to take cuttings from.

Lately i have been seeing a lot of vines while i hike in the mountains here in southern Taiwan that resemble Piper. I think some are not, but they have got me very interested regardless. This past weekend has pretty much set the obsession in stone with me and Piper as me and my wife had a 3 day trip to Orchid Island which is one of Taiwan's true tropical rain forests without question. Its winter and stormy, so we hiked in the rainy/wind (fuck is it windy there! we got blown over on our feet, and our scooter knocked us on our ass, easily 140+km winds, and not a typhoon...)

We hiked up the southern trail, which gos to a pond which is in an inactive volcanoes crater. Very cool place where i foudn lots of cool plants. But i saw 2 forms of Piper that i found cool (I also found the piper betle which is common on the mainland of taiwan, but wont bother mentioning that for now). I say forms as im not sure if they are distinct species or jsut environmental issues. 1 is a smaller leaf vine that branches slightly more. They other has wider, far larger (3x the size) leaves. The larger grows in slightly more open situations adn the small in more shaded situations, which is why i hesitate to say if they are species or environmental differences. I collected cuttings from multiple plants and brought them back, though they overheated in my bag and most look pretty much fucked to be blunt.

I came here to open a thread to discuss and ask a question, i seem to have written a book and forgotten my question completely...so....i will post pictures and probably post another response with my question once it comes back to me...i bought a bottle of Kaoliang tonight, hence the memory loss.

[planthelper]

nice read, as always with you!

looking forward to hear and see more about this.

[kadakuda]

Forgot to put up pics. Unfortunately i didnt get many form orchid island, at least not any good ones.

Here is P. betle which is the "domesticated" one for our purposes.

This is the other species I saw on Orchid Island, variant #1. Larger broader leaves and thicker/larger overall.

This is the 2nd variant, probably another species, growing in darker areas.

Will post better leaf shots when the plants grow out a bit.

Though I am curious what species you guys think these may be. I have gotten really interested in these plants lately and their possible use in certain foods/medicines etc. Especially after seeing them in Thaialnd being used as food dishes and as betel nut substitutes.

Here are some links about our Taiwanese species.

Our educational/gov site for herbariam stuff adn botany. great site with tons of info, mostly in English.

hxxp://tai2.ntu.edu.tw/Specimen/family-specimen.php?family=Piperaceae

Flora of Taiwan Piper page. Great book, but i dont have flowers/fruit yet so its more difficult to ID, at least for me.

hxxp://tai2.ntu.edu.tw/ebook/ebookpage.php?book=Fl.%20Taiwan&volume=2&page=560

This guy lists 9 species

hxxp://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/question?qid=1610070202318

small crappy pics

hxxp://subject.forest.gov.tw/species/vascular/2/317.htm

EDIT: Couple more links.

Piper of China (efloras is a great site to check out btw)

hxxp://www.efloras.org/browse.aspx?flora_id=3&start_taxon_id=125531

Piper of Taiwan

hxxp://www.efloras.org/browse.aspx?flora_id=101&start_taxon_id=125531

Edited December 6, 2011 by kadakuda

[whitewind]

I'm not sure there are many English speaking people around who know a great deal about the flora of Taiwan. I suggest starting with usjng the eight names and herbarium specimens shown at the link you gave below, as these guys are likely more knowledgeable than anyone.

hxxp://tai2.ntu.edu.tw/Specimen/family-specimen.php?family=Piperaceae

From their herbarium specimens, Google pics, and what little I know about Piper, I would suggest:

None of the pictures show Piper umbellatum.

It's probably not Piper sp. which appears to have a rounded, larger leaf somewhat akin to Piper umbellatum.

I don't think you've got Piper kadsura, which as I remember is a bit reddish and not so vivid green, may be mottled between the veins (hairy underneath?).

I have seen a few varieties of Piper betle which shows variation across the range. Best bet is to bioassay, but you already know which plant you have locally.

Piper kwashoense is probably endemic to Taiwan, which would be interesting if you could positively ID and bio-assay one ;) . I suggest this because doing a Google hunt quickly brought up those herbarium images and nothing else.

Piper can be quite difficult because the trailing growth leaves can be quite different to the climbing growth leaves (these are often more heart shaped and frequently smaller) and you can see a huge range across the same plant.

[Zaka]

Irie Whitewind,

Excellent link!

I particularly like the gps map location !

Respect,

Z

[whitewind]

Those maps are awesome! Didn't realise about them.

Kadakuda, maybe that's the place to start - where the known sightings are. I know where am visiting, should I go to Taiwan ;)

[kadakuda]

great stuff, cheers man. Ya, i looked at a lot of the areas that are on those sheets. The thing is, as far as southern Taiwan goes, i have been all over. A lot of those places they mention i have seen multiple piper sp that look quite different. But i am still not good at all about differentiating them. you also mention the variability, which i have noticed at least with P. betle as well. When my plants grow up some i think i will send in some sheets to a museum here to see how much they want to give free help that said, in Taiwan most of these botanical guys publish in English as well.

[whitewind]

Piper umbellatum is considered synonymous with Piper subpeltatum. If they are one and the same, some of those umbellatums you have over there kadakuda may have lovely aromatic leaves.

[planthelper]

hi!

i'm soooo happy!

it seems to me that nobody in oz ever traded the real piper betle plant in oz, so i was surprised to find it for sale at my local market today.

i'm now owner of two betle plants, and i will certaily probagate them up!

funny, the guy that sold it to me had worn out teeth, is this a sign of betle usage?

ahem, and i picked a few nut's up from the garden aswell.

kada, can i still use, nuts where the husk is already rotting away (alcohol smell), or do i have to climb?

i know you said you ever only saw green nuts beeing used.

[kadakuda]

if the outside is gross, and hte inside is ok then just dehusk it and use the inside. The only seeing green nuts is for Taiwan, they only like fresh young nuts. Other countries will sell huge old moldy nuts and jsut cut out the inside. Nice score on the plant. Have now seen 3 piper species being used in betel nut though.

On another note i just found 2 more species and got pictures, one was in fruit so i picked a betel nut box full of fruit More pics of the fruit/seeds later when i get home.

arg photos wont upload, do it soon

These are from extreme south Taiwan, near the coast

#1

#2

Edited January 30, 2012 by kadakuda

[kadakuda]

[whitewind]

I think that might be Smilax actually.

Look at the way the berries cluster. That's all wrong for Piper sp. which always have a tail like inflorescence.

Smilax is still useful from an ethno perspective though, I like it too