The Random Thread.

[Northerner]

 

 

I'll be sure to let my doctor know...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freakazoid]

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Edited July 18, 2018 by freakazoid
Drunkery

[Gimli]

Has anyone else noticed people who only seem to appear when giveaways are going on has increased as of late?

 

2c

[etherealdrifter]

30 minutes ago, Gimli said:

Has anyone else noticed people who only seem to appear when giveaways are going on has increased as of late?

 

2c

yes.

what ya got?

hehe,

 

unfortunately, this is not a new trend bruzzy…….my hope is that these people are genuinely trying to build up their collection, then breed/clone and pass on their genetics once more when they are in a position to do so.

As orthels others , meh, they should come to the seeding gathering nude pool run show and drop their seeds and plants out of their pantaloons as they run around the campgrounds - then its a case of entheo musical chairs.

 

[freakazoid]

^I'll have another go....

 

sfrazzzlshlompdfkn...blahblahbla shompkin  drrrrrrflirpin zzzzz and another thing

 

There's a pool?!! Is it Free?!!!!

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by freakazoid
what are youuu looking' at?

[DiscoStu]

In the future there will be no Empires

[bardo]

17 hours ago, DiscoStu said:

In the future there will be no Empires

Is that to say we will be free of control, anarchy

or that there will be no humans left to be controlled

[DiscoStu]

no. note the plural . not for another 1000 years or so but if you look at history and the way globalization is happening there will be no empireS in the future 

[bardo]

Ah i see, one world government, nwo and so on

[bardo]

 

[DiscoStu]

Consider this, the number of possible proteins 200 amino acids long is 20 raised to the 200th power or about 10 raised to the 260th power. Now, the number of particles in the known universe is about 10 to the 80th power. Suppose, on a microsecond time scale the universe were doing nothing other than producing proteins length 200. It turns out that it would take vastly many repeats of the history of the universe to create all possible proteins length 200. This means that, for entities of complexity above atoms, such as modestly complex organic molecules, proteins, let alone species, automobiles and operas, the universe is on a unique trajectory (ignoring quantum mechanics for the moment). That is, the universe at modest levels of complexity and above is vastly non-ergodic.

- Stuart Kauffman

 

i don't know if you've read any of stuart kauffman's works, but i suggest you do. he's on the same plane as ruper sheldrake but slightly more rational.

also watch his various utube lectures, you need to pay attention but it's worthwhile

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by DiscoStu

[DiscoStu]

also if humans/animals are just blind assemblies of dumb chemicals why even consciousness at all?

[Cubism]

7 hours ago, DiscoStu said:

also if humans/animals are just blind assemblies of dumb chemicals why even consciousness at all?

This is basically 'the hard question of consciousness' so don't expect any form of sensible answer to it anytime soon Stu. 

No one even has a solid scientific or philosophical framework from which to approach the question, let alone a means to answer it.

Great question though!!!

[bardo]

Consciousnesses is basically just awareness, we have this biological mechanism to survive and continue the specie, all the work of the brain, nerves, nervous system etc. We evolved to have this level of awareness.

Look at neurodegenerative diseases and you can see how consciousness correlates with the brains functioning.

[bardo]

destroy the right organ and life ends for the individual, end of life = end of consciousness.

 

On a side note and a bit of a tangent, i feel religion and belief that life continues after death for an individual detracts from just how astounding life really is and robs someone from realizing just how extreme this experience is and seems sad if it is to be squandered by religious ideologies, at this time i feel religion detracts from the extremity and rawness of the now and it's happenings.

I believe the energy that animates the flesh will never die, in that sense we have always been and always will but will not be truly conscious without the supporting biology, free, like a rain drop becoming apart of the ocean again, certain happenings aloud it to experience a sense of separation as a drop for a time but all along was still apart of the ocean.

Edited July 30, 2018 by bardo
change a word

[DiscoStu]

8 hours ago, bardo said:

Consciousnesses is basically just awareness, we have this biological mechanism to survive and continue the specie, all the work of the brain, nerves, nervous system etc. We evolved to have this level of awareness.

Look at neurodegenerative diseases and you can see how consciousness correlates with the brains functioning.

so what is awareness? what does it mean to be "aware" of something? given a sufficiently advance AI that's indistinguishable from humans, how can you tell whether or not it's aware of its surroundings? do you ask it? how much brain do you need before you can say "this brain has awareness?

 

similarily with lower life forms like bacteria? are they aware?

this is not a go at you or anything but i have problems when people say words like "just": or "simply" when talking about sentience.

[Cubism]

8 hours ago, bardo said:

Consciousnesses is basically just awareness, we have this biological mechanism to survive and continue the specie, all the work of the brain, nerves, nervous system etc. We evolved to have this level of awareness.

Look at neurodegenerative diseases and you can see how consciousness correlates with the brains functioning.

That's not the issue, the question is how does consciousness arise from an assortment of chemicals.

 

But....In any case awareness does not equal consciousness at all, that is a complete misconception.  For example look at hemispatial neglect.  People have no conscious recollection of one side of space, yet can correctly point to an object within that space at rates significantly better than chance.

 

And to say that someone with a neurodegerative disorder is somehow less conscious than someone else, is yet another common misconception, and would require quantification of consciousness to begin with.  In thousands of years of studying consciousness no one person has come up with a way to quantify it, so how do you suggest we do?

 

Hence "The Hard Question of Consciousness".  It's hard as fuck to understand/study/answer and that's why no one has managed to yet.

 

Btw, my sentiment is same as Stu's, not an attack and certainly not looking for an argument, just stating the basic neuroscience perspective.

[bardo]

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

this is not a go at you or anything but i have problems when people say words like "just": or "simply" when talking about sentience.

I don't see anything you or cubism have stated that is even remotely close to an attack or similar, all good  : )  I use the word just to often and often inappropriately and should have left that word out of that sentence.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

so what is awareness?

Awareness is basically perception and knowledge, the definition of perception is the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses, knowledge is 1.   facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.  2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

what does it mean to be "aware" of something?

Basically for that something to be perceived to be sensed.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

given a sufficiently advance AI that's indistinguishable from humans, how can you tell whether or not it's aware of its surroundings? do you ask it?

I believe with enough advancement in the tech we will create a type of synthetic awareness, with enough complexity and sensory chips and so forth, to figure if it is aware would require tests, how aware it is would depend on the level of tech.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

how much brain do you need before you can say "this brain has awareness?

I don't think the brain independently has awareness, that is it requires supporting functions, a vast network of nerves and so forth. I don't think it is really about the mass of brain or tissue but more the functionality of the brain, the brains functionality.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:06 AM, DiscoStu said:

similarily with lower life forms like bacteria? are they aware?

Yes they are certainly aware, what level of awareness i don't exactly know.

http://www.biowars.com/blog/are-bacteria-conscious-beings/

[bardo]

On 30/07/2018 at 3:10 AM, Cubism said:

That's not the issue, the question is how does consciousness arise from an assortment of chemicals.

That is to me one of the most exciting areas of research, currently i think or lean toward the theory of abiogenesis and evolution.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:10 AM, Cubism said:

And to say that someone with a neurodegerative disorder is somehow less conscious than someone else, is yet another common misconception

I did not say this, i said Look at neurodegenerative diseases and you can see how consciousness correlates with the brains functioning.

That is you can see examples of certain parts of the brain that is damaged or impaired and how that effects consciousness, you can see what regions of the human brain are responsibly for belief, thought, feelings etc through brain scans and such technology, and as that tech improves so does our understanding  

On 30/07/2018 at 3:10 AM, Cubism said:

Hence "The Hard Question of Consciousness".  It's hard as fuck to understand/study/answer and that's why no one has managed to yet.

We are studying it and increasing our understanding of it,  in co-evolution of tech we are understanding more.

On 30/07/2018 at 3:10 AM, Cubism said:

Btw, my sentiment is same as Stu's, not an attack and certainly not looking for an argument, just stating the basic neuroscience perspective.

All good thank you, me neither : )

I think there is a strong consensus among neuroscientists (and prob scientists in general?) is that consciousness is biological and chemical functions

 

[bardo]

 

 

[bardo]

On 30/07/2018 at 3:10 AM, Cubism said:

and would require quantification of consciousness to begin with.  In thousands of years of studying consciousness no one person has come up with a way to quantify it, so how do you suggest we do?

You could get a room with many objects of different form and colours, add some sounds playing, controlled temperatures and place individuals in the room for an allocated time then after quiz them on what they had just experienced in that room and it will be a crude measurement of the individuals awareness, there level of consciousness. 

[Cubism]

20 minutes ago, bardo said:

You could get a room with many objects of different form and colours, add some sounds playing, controlled temperatures and place individuals in the room for an allocated time then after quiz them on what they had just experienced in that room and it will be a crude measurement of the individuals awareness, there level of consciousness. 

Personally I think that's confusing cognition with consciousness which are two entirely different things....but hey I by no means an expert.

[bardo]

I am far from an expert in this field to : ) tho it does greatly interest me, i don't really see a huge distinction between cognition and consciousness. how would you define consciousness ? i believe there is a part of the brain that is responsible for even asking these types of questions,  i see it as influenced chemical reactions, a drastic example is if you add certain chemicals to the organism (like drugs) there can be a drastic change in consciousness, kinda like tinkering with it as a chemist would in a lab

[Cubism]

53 minutes ago, bardo said:

 

I did not say this, i said Look at neurodegenerative diseases and you can see how consciousness correlates with the brains functioning.

That is you can see examples of certain parts of the brain that is damaged or impaired and how that effects consciousness, you can see what regions of the human brain are responsibly for belief, thought, feelings etc through brain scans and such technology, and as that tech improves so does our understanding  

 

 

Okay so say someone has Alzheimer's with major atrophy of the hippocampus and as such can't encode new memories.  That has nothing to do with consciousness, it is cognition.  Just because you can't form new memories informs nothing of your state of consciousness.  

But....if you knock out the ascending reticular activating system, as with anaesthetic, then yeah one loses consciousness, but how do you measure it, it's binary, either on or off, 1 or 0.

And brain imaging is far less informative than it is made out to be.  It's an indirect measure of anything at best, so a correlation, and doesn't relate cause to function at all.  For example fMRI measures changes in brain blood oxygenation assuming deoxygenated blood represents an area of high activity....fair enough.  But what no one ever mentions is that there are more inhibitory (reduce probability of activity) neurons in the cortex than excitatory neurons which increase likelihood of activity.  So is all that oxygen going to inhibitory or excitatory neurons??? No one can tell.  And that's not even to mention astrocytes, oligodendrocytes and microglia.  

Same with fdg-PET.  Just substitute glucose for oxygen in what I've said above and it's all the same.

 

And either way your still measuring cognitive activity not consciousness.

 

Great conversation though!

[bardo]

I do think memory is apart of human consciousness tho is not required to have a state of consciousness, I think cognition is a part of consciousness, more the mental aspect of it but consciousness would require more anatomy like nerves and such in order for there to be senses, to be able to sense the surroundings.

 

Brain imaging is only one observational tool, we can use electrodes and EEG for observing electrical patterns

 

I agree great convo and topic : )