Jump to content
The Corroboree
alive

RC's held by customs

Recommended Posts

Moreover, is only the importation illegal by this broad wording as you're importing an analogue of a border controlled drug? Once it's in the country it's up to each state's respective laws, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so. Check this:

'A person found to be unlawfully importing or exporting a prohibited substance may be committing a range of offences, both criminal and civil. A person may incur a fine of up to $110,000 and/or five (5) years imprisonment under the Customs Act 1901. If it is a border controlled drug or precursor, penalties under the Criminal Code Act 1995 range up to a fine of $825,000 and/or life imprisonment.'

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/LegalHighsFactSheet.pdf

The Customs Act has an analogue section covering importation and I think the Criminal Code Act covers the possession and sale of RCs. The Criminal Code Act is a Federal Act, which means it trumps all state and territory acts. A good example of how Federal law trumps State law is currently taking place in the US where the Feds are taking down medical marijuana growers and dispensaries even though they are operating legally under State law

That's my take on it anyways.

Edited by TheExplorer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmmm I was always under the impression that the onus was on the individual states to integrate the TGA scheduling recommendations into their own policies apart from Victoria which apparently does it automatically. Would really love T's take on the whole thing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that shulgin thing is interesting, i too would like further info here.

what i really want to know is, how can the government possibly expect anyone to know what is legal and what isnt? we're not all graduates in organic chemistry for fuck's sake. are we to be expected to hire one every time we use any chemical? fucking ridiculous. :uzi:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty interesting that Customs would apply for a civil matter against the party importing.

As Customs are part of the Federal Government, it would be understandable to bring criminal charges against the party as they have the immediate means of arrest/prosecution etc. and they can make the case fit their means of attack to attain a conviction based on the party being guilty 'Beyond reasonable doubt." Although with the tightly sealed Criminal Code above, theyve really got 95% of cases in the bag.

Civil law however involves a personal action, based on the "Balance of probabilities" for the 'compensation' for wrongs.

(Disclaimer - a question, not a statement)

So really... If you are found trying to import something and it doesnt have your name on it/you deny it is yours (there is reasonable doubt you may not have requested it). Customs with the funding/assistance of the Fed Gov could still bust in the PARTY's door, take said party's computer/reciepts/credit card statements/family/pets/etc and use that to tilt the 'balance of probabilites' in their favour, throw the party infront of a court (also funded/assisted by the fed gov), and ensure they were properly compensated BY THE PARTY? This then opening the matter of further criminal charges to ensue for their new evidence?

Maybe my small knowledge is a bad thing, and should be stopped.

Good-luck Alive, and maybe it's not a good idea to tell us if you get it through, for the children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt hes going to respond. I reckon he either called customs and asked for his RC back (lol) and he is in the shit, or his RC arrived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol, no, I've been quietly consuming all your wise words of wisdom this whole time, it still hasn't arrived but neither has anyone busted down my door either.

It is however still trackable on the postal system and status says it's just awaiting clearance, considering I have recieved this product before completely opened and tested by customs I'm still hoping for the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and for the children's sake, it's probably best not to risk your money on research that the government wants to prevent you from conducting, regardless of whether you're hurting anyone or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol, no, I've been quietly consuming all your wise words of wisdom this whole time, it still hasn't arrived but neither has anyone busted down my door either.

It is however still trackable on the postal system and status says it's just awaiting clearance, considering I have recieved this product before completely opened and tested by customs I'm still hoping for the best.

Bad time to get a package:

Agencies come together to combat online supply of counterfeit and illegal medicines

The Australian Customs and Border Protection Service and the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) have taken part in an international ‘Week of Action’ targeting the online sale of counterfeit and illegal medicines.

Together with over 80 participating countries, Operation Pangea IV was undertaken to raise awareness of the health risks associated with the misuse of counterfeit and illegal medicines, and has resulted in a series of arrests across the globe and the worldwide seizure of thousands of potentially harmful medical products.

The operation was carried out between 20 and 27 September 2011. Officers from participating agencies coordinated a series of joint operations to intercept and investigate the illicit importation of goods which pose a risk to the health and safety of Australian consumers.

Acting Customs and Border Protection National Director Trade and Compliance, Sharon Nyakuengama, said that the success of Operation Pangea IV highlights the ability of Australian law enforcement and regulatory agencies to work collaboratively across government, as well as internationally, to protect the Australian public by removing counterfeit and illegal medicines from the market.

“The collaboration between these agencies has resulted in a significant number of seizures, investigations and arrests. The great work from all officers involved will continue to prevent Australian consumers from accessing potentially dangerous substances,” Ms Nyakuengama said.

“The Australian public needs to be aware of the potential dangers associated with purchasing medications online.

“While the internet can offer consumers a convenient way to access approved therapeutic goods, they need to be careful that they are not inadvertently breaking the law, wasting their money or damaging their health.”

A TGA spokeswoman said that many products available on international websites were manufactured in unregulated and unsanitary conditions.

“Without taking measures to ensure an international website supplying medicines is legitimate, Australian consumers can face risks that purchased products may be fake, too weak or strong, contain undisclosed or dangerous ingredients or be past their use-by date,” she said.

The operation resulted in:

• the physical examination of approximately 71 international parcels, resulting in 20 seizures and 36 detentions for TGA determinations.

• more than 70,000 pills, tubes, vials and sachets being held or seized.

The majority of substances detected at the Australian border were slimming and diet supplements and erectile dysfunction medication, with some antibiotics, steroids, as well as a range of illegal substances commonly marketed as ‘legal highs’.

Further information about Operation Pangea IV can be found at: http://www.interpol.int/Crime-areas/...eration-Pangea

Further information about purchasing medicines over the internet can be found at: http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/re...heinternet.pdf

Customs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how long exactly CAN customs hold onto something for without notifying the receiver?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for one how long has it been in customs???

i once had a skateboard deck from the states take over a week to get through customs

but seriously you shouldnt be ordering any of those dodgy RC'S

most come from shitty chinese factories that couldnt care less wat they put in there and how they make it

and with all the new analogue laws pretty much anything and everything in the way of RC's is illegal

just cos you ordered something before and it made it through doesnt mean its ok to import now

all i can say is BAD IDEA

and you better start praying you dont get the cops knockin on ya door

cos if they do your gonna be in some shit so you better have a good excuse for ordering

and saying its plant food or some shit like that is probably not gonna cut it

good luck

and do ALOT of research before importing chemi's

or even better just dont do it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually-

Some of the companies producing these chems not only in China but India are the same companies producing mainstream pharma.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually-

Some of the companies producing these chems not only in China but India are the same companies producing mainstream pharma.

wich is why i said

MOST of these companies

i didnt say they're all dodgy

and just because they might produce some mainstream pharmacueticals

doesnt mean theyre not dodgy anyway

have you ever seen how they make fireworks in china or india???

things are a bit different in these kinds of countries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

because you usually put fireworks in your mouth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

because you usually put fireworks in your mouth?

haha smartass

my point is rules and regulations in countries like china and india

are very different to more westernized countries

for example in india you will see a person smoking while mixing a huge batch of highly explosive

chemi's to make fireworks

(definately not something you would see in a more westernized country)

alot of chinese pharmacuetical companies will use highly dangerous chemicals

chemicals that are not safe

(another thing you would not see in a more westernized country)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks for the link icey i found that very compelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great link IceCube, thank you. An very useful opinion of the current situation that I found easy to understand. Also great to have the links to relevant legislation together in one place too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has any prosecution actually taken effect under that particular clause 314.1 (2) f?

Torsten keeps hinting at prosecutions that have taken effect under this section....but what are they? what quantities? have they ever used (2)f, or did they use some other part of 314.1(2)

Prosecutions have taken place for mephedrone and related cathinone derivatives. I know several of these people personally. There was also a media case where a precursor chemical was prosecuted under section f - I think it was the ketone for PMA, and it was 200L i think. Section f is well established in case law now.

The mephedrone cases were pretty dramatic. people got busted for 5 or 10g at customs entry. The feds raided and seized email and credit card records and then prosecuted for the full weight of all combined orders, including orders that hadn't even arrived or been sent yet. The cases were dealt with in federal court and penalties were very harsh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone have any specific case law examples whereby a "chemical derivative" is defined?

"Derivative" is usually meant in terms of the chemical process of derivation used for isolation, purificaiton and stabilisation. This means that the derivative should usually be easily turned back into the original compound. It usually applies to esters, ethers, salts and amides. DIPT for example can't be easily turned back into DMT so is usually not regarded as a derivative.

The term 'structural derivative' means something completely different though. It just means that the structures are similar and one can be derived from the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah well the only one that remotely applies is:

Australia: Controlled and on the list of substances subject to import and export controls (Appendix B:). Placed on Schedule One of the Drugs Misuse and Trafficking Act when it first came to notice in 1994, when in a showcase legal battle Chemist R.Simpson was charged with manufacturing the substance in Sydney NSW. Alexander Shulgin came to Australia to testify on behalf of the defense.(to no avail).

what do you want to know? I followed this case quite closely and have talked to sasha about it a few times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to derail but here is a cool article I found

http://monicabarratt.net/?p=221

Lots of errors in this even though it is only a few days old. The prohibition is far wider than this page indicates.

As for the original post problem, here is my take.

Customs does a FID test which can have 3 results.

Drug legal - cleared.

Drug illegal - either a letter with a warning, or a raid, or a 'wait and see what else he imports'.

Test inconclusive - gets sent to government lab for HPLC and GC/MS analysis.

The last option takes abou 3 months unelss they put a rush on it in which case it may only take a day or two. Most cases are not rushed.

If the lab has problems identifying due to it being a novel compound they don't have a reference standard for, it may take even longer. Customs is allowed to hold your item for 6 months without giving you any updates. One of my items has taken up to 9 months before being released.

The analysis can then be used by any agency. if the product falls within the bans of the customs act or the federal criminal code act then it will be customs and feds and possibly state cops raiding you. if the substance falls into the state drug act or TGA schedules then the state cops will come by themselves.

if the matter goes to court and is about being an analogue, then the prosecution will provide expert witnesses [chemists] to make their argument for them. You will need to do the same to have any chance. Finding a chemist that is willing to stick his neck out like that is difficult, which is one of the reasons I feel it is wise to err on the side of caution when applying the analogue definitions strictly.

A such the BOME compounds look tempting, but I suggest that they are covered under most state analogues clauses and also under section f of the federal criminal code act.

The worst analogue clauses are in Qld, NSW and Tas. Don't even bother trying to challenge them. WA and Vic are probably the safest places to play that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what do you want to know? I followed this case quite closely and have talked to sasha about it a few times.

Just interested about how it "went down" - was 2c-b scheduled and then the guy prosecuted etc etc. What was he doing, what was the defence (specifically why was Sasha called out?), how badly did he get sentenced....

Lots of errors in this even though it is only a few days old. The prohibition is far wider than this page indicates.

So what is the actual go? I've heard of people importing large amounts of AM-2201 whom were intending to produce incense just having their packages blocked by customs and no more coming from it. It's so hard to obtain information from the govt without just importing the compounds and seeing what happens!

How is the federal-state dynamic working at the moment? The media release from the ACT government posted on that site I pasted alludes that only the states have the power to prosecute such matters, whilst I've heard anecdotal reports of people getting raided by the feds for producing one of the synthetic cannabis products on sale in Queensland currently and for example a quote from this website:

http://www.cqnews.com.au/story/2011/11/11/is-there-kaos-in-our-mine-sites/

"While synthetic cannabis has been banned in 16 countries and is illegal in Australia, regulation and control is limited, and legislation only outlaws specific compounds," Mr Korkoneas said.

For example in section f) how does case law define "substance substantially similar in chemical structure" at the moment? Is there a percentage of atoms that needs to be similar or is it handled on a case-by-case basis etc etc. Any supporting documentation/transcripts would be wonderful. I have access to university databases if someone wants to show me to how look up a case.

Furthermore have there been any prosecutions for importation of JWH-like compounds as of yet? And if so, what were the respective outcomes?

Do the feds even prosecute controlled drug charges ahead of the states?

It would be interesting to see how things like 25c-NBOMe would fit into the Queensland analogue rules as it has quite a unique receptor-binding profile when compared to similar substances.

So yeah,happy to put in the man-hours to compile the information, I just need to be shown how to look the stuff up!!!!

Edited by IceCube

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just interested about how it "went down" - was 2c-b scheduled and then the guy prosecuted etc etc. What was he doing, what was the defence (specifically why was Sasha called out?), how badly did he get sentenced....

It was about manufacturing drugs. he was making 2CB which wasn't scheudled, but was covered under state analogues laws as 'structurally derived hallucinogen' [or maybe the term was psychedelic]. The defence was not disputing the structural relationship too much, but got sasha out here to state that 2CB is not psychedelic. It didn't work. I don't remember the penalty, but I think it was quite a few years. The guy was the drummer from the band Dragon.

So what is the actual go? I've heard of people importing large amounts of AM-2201 whom were intending to produce incense just having their packages blocked by customs and no more coming from it. It's so hard to obtain information from the govt without just importing the compounds and seeing what happens!

The fed law is simple - just the 7 listed by the TGA. This can be enforced by customs under the 'community protection' provisions which will cause seizure of product, but no prosecution. It can also be enforced by the states in respect to how they implement the TGA schedules.

The state level is really where it's at with these. States with analogue laws only need to schedule 2 or 3 compounds to cover ALL of them. This is the case in SA, NSW, Qld, ACT. In WA there is no analogues clause, but a long list of chems. In Vic the list is short - pretty much the same as the federal ones.

Beware customs holding parcels! They can hold for many months and when they release them, if the state law has changed in the meantime you can be prosecuted udner state law for receiving them [even if they were legal at the time of ordering and the delay is not your fault]. You might want to keep an eye on a new legal thread I will post in a couple of weeks that will elaborate on this in great detail.

How is the federal-state dynamic working at the moment? The media release from the ACT government posted on that site I pasted alludes that only the states have the power to prosecute such matters, whilst I've heard anecdotal reports of people getting raided by the feds for producing one of the synthetic cannabis products on sale in Queensland currently and for example a quote from this website:

http://www.cqnews.com.au/story/2011/11/11/is-there-kaos-in-our-mine-sites/

States prosecute under state law, feds prosecute under federal law. if you breach customs or criminal code act then you will be prosecuted under federal law. if you breach state drug act or TGA regulations [as implemented under state law] then it will be a state case. At the moment no federal law prohibits cannabinoid agonists so it is not possible to be prosecuted under federal law for these..

For example in section f) how does case law define "substance substantially similar in chemical structure" at the moment? Is there a percentage of atoms that needs to be similar or is it handled on a case-by-case basis etc etc. Any supporting documentation/transcripts would be wonderful.

Under NSW law is is pretty clear because the law actually gives limits. These are usually 6 carbons and/or 2-4 others. It's not so clear in other states or udner section f of the criminal code act and basically comes down to how much you can pay for expert witnesses in court.

Furthermore have there been any prosecutions for importation of JWH-like compounds as of yet? And if so, what were the respective outcomes?

none for improting as no import law has tackled these yet. However, you can be arrested for possession [under state law] at the time of pick up from post office. There are several cases happenign already.

Do the feds even prosecute controlled drug charges ahead of the states?

They did in victoria in regards to mephedrone as the vic law did not cover this reliably.

It would be interesting to see how things like 25c-NBOMe would fit into the Queensland analogue rules as it has quite a unique receptor-binding profile when compared to similar substances.

They don't look at the difference in profile, but at the similarity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the information!

Finally, what are some details on these cases of people being done at the post office? Were they for analogues or specifically listed chemicals and what states?

Cheers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×