Perpetual Motion

[CβL]

I think you'll find the only perpetual anything, is this thread.

[qwertyuiop]

Oh man I used to love perpetual motion ideas/inventions.

The best thing I came up with was...

a normal car tyre with magnets evenly spaced around its diameter. (1st flaw is that magnets don't last forever...So there goes perpetual-ness..still got efficiency though.)

Now if I spin that tyre in space 9 0gravity, away from any possible gravitational pulls. (planets,sun etc or somehow get it to follow an orbit?)

Theoretically it should spin on the spot 'forever' as there is no friction/slowing down forces acting upon it.

put some copper wire attached to a light bulb or battery underneath to start it generating electricity.

...However from some reading that i've done, apparently the generating of electricity causes its own magnetic field which opposes that of the tyres...slowing it down.

So perpetual motion.. ie. spinning something and it going forever = possible (although difficult/impractical to set up)

and harvesting energy from the motion seams like its already been proven to be bunk... Gosh darn. Feel free to use/expand on this idea as if it where your own..I've given up on it.

[ballzac]

Yep. Every electric current produces its own magnetic field. According to Lenz's law, the direction of the current induced by a changing magnetic field is such that it will produce a magnetic field that opposes the external magnetic field. This slows down the generator until it eventually stops.

Edited August 26, 2011 by ballzac

[qwertyuiop]

Yep. Every electric current produces its own magnetic field. According to Lenz's law, the direction of the current induced by a changing magnetic field is such that it will produce a magnetic field that opposes the external magnetic field. This slows down the generator until it eventually stops.

 

.

Can I just turn that feature of the universe off in the 'settings' tab? Haha, well thanks for the confirmation ballzac.

[ballzac]

Best not to mess with the settings methinks

[ballzac]

The most direct demonstration of this effect is probably dropping a magnet through a conducting tube. The actual physics is complicated by the fact that it is eddy currents in the copper that create the magnetic field, but you could easily use a stack of insulated copper rings to circumvent this.

 

 

If you cut a slit down the length of the tube so that the currents don't form, the magnet falls at normal speed.

[qwertyuiop]

The most direct demonstration of this effect is probably dropping a magnet through a conducting tube. The actual physics is complicated by the fact that it is eddy currents in the copper that create the magnetic field, but you could easily use a stack of insulated copper rings to circumvent this.

 

 

If you cut a slit down the length of the tube so that the currents don't form, the magnet falls at normal speed.

 

myyy gooddd that is cool. I've only ever messed around with those neodymium magnets from hard drives...not the easiest thing to manipulate. But wow, watching the unrealistic fall speed is awesome! thanks for that.

[dollarjuice]

I remember the 'dropping a magnet through the pipe' demonstration from like year 11 physics. Really interesting stuff.

But yeah unfortunately the laws of said physics prevent any sort of perpetual motion

Feel free to make amendments to said laws though if you can do it without breaking the universe.. ;)

[Roopey]

The universe is in perpetual motion, so obviously it's possible. Our limited perceptions, and us saying "Oh, it's just impossible," is exactly what stops us from seeing the truth.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Roopey

[Sheather]

How do you know? I would think it will stop eventually.

I was going to say that gravity should pull everything back together eventually but I have a feeling that if something is moving fast enough at enough distance away from the source of pull, then the reduction in speed will never overcome the expansion of distance? I can't be bothered going through the equations atm though.

[Roopey]

How do you know? I would think it will stop eventually.

I was going to say that gravity should pull everything back together eventually but I have a feeling that if something is moving fast enough at enough distance away from the source of pull, then the reduction in speed will never overcome the expansion of distance? I can't be bothered going through the equations atm though.

 

Mainly by the way that it never stops moving. The idea that something must have end comes from a limited perspective as well, due to our attachment to the physical world where things seem to have a beginning and end, when really everything just changes into something else.

[qwertyuiop]

Existence is one of those things ey..I suppose all the answers of the universe are ultimately unattainable. It is nice however to think how much more diverse and supremely complex the universe is than we could ever comprehend fully. (or maybe we can one day!)

Perpetual energy..The infinite ..The universe, I think truly are beyond our level of (accurate) comprehension.

[Sheather]

 

 

Mainly by the way that it never stops moving.

That does not mean that it never will stop moving though, our frame of view is so short, we will likely not see any/much change in its pace. IMO it would take eons for there to be any noticeably changes. Halted motion doesn't necessarily mean the end, just change into something else ;)

[ballzac]

The idea that something must have end comes from a limited perspective as well, due to our attachment to the physical world where things seem to have a beginning and end, when really everything just changes into something else.

 

From a philosophical perspective, that's an interesting view, but usually the idea of perpetual motion is about trying to avoid power bills. If you could somehow apply what you just said to actually do something practical like charge a phone, that would be great, but unfortunately, we need to work within our narrow paradigm to solve problems that exist within this paradigm. If you're not interested in an actual source of energy that can be used to heat our houses and keep the computer running, then sit back and contemplate the infinite, but anyone who wants those things needs to work within the known laws of physics and/or expand upon them.

[Roopey]

Well considering I did already post this, obviously people missed it due to the fact that it was the last post on the last page.

If you are really interested this stuff, please check out, A Practical Guide to "Free Energy" Devices by Patrick J. Kelly, which explains that the the law of energy is always true, but that taking energy from the surrounding environment is in fact possible with magnets (he explains in much more detail than I care to get into here), and that we have been lied to for a very long time (this last part is pretty much true of everything.) The people that have control over the the corporate banking system are concerned with one thing, and that is profit, stealing as much energy as they can through fear and ignorance. Unfortunately, knowledge is power, and if everyone knew the secrets being kept, these people would then have none. So rationally, this isn't just about controlling our economy, or even just our ecologic system, but our consciousness on a whole, for those who are unaware they are slaves are the best slaves of all.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Roopey

[ballzac]

The first page was very interesting. Apparently a magnet must be utilising energy from its surroundings in order to remain on the fridge. Is that how blu-tac works too?

[Roopey]

The first page was very interesting. Apparently a magnet must be utilising energy from its surroundings in order to remain on the fridge. Is that how blu-tac works too?

 

I'm pretty sure cohesion is completely different.

[ballzac]

I'm pretty sure adhesion is completely different.

 

Why? It's just electromagnetic interaction in both cases.

Edited August 29, 2011 by ballzac

[Sheather]

It's a different physical phenomena though, adhesion (which I think Roopey meant to say) utilises fricative force and being "stuck" to something, which would be a meshing of the outer molecules with another surface, and cohesive forces keeping the substance together to hold the entirety in one place. Magnets utilise magnetic fields, which will hold them to any other magnetic object, there is no molecular meshing... This is my understanding from basic physics, if you have better explanation I'd like to hear it though.

If this Patrick Kelly has the answers to such things though, does he have devices that show it? If it's such a secret why hasn't he been arrested and silenced? Will check out this manual anyway but I am suspicious.

[ballzac]

It's a different physical phenomena though, adhesion (which I think Roopey meant to say) utilises fricative force and being "stuck" to something, which would be a meshing of the outer molecules with another surface, and cohesive forces keeping the substance together to hold the entirety in one place. Magnets utilise magnetic fields, which will hold them to any other magnetic object, there is no molecular meshing... This is my understanding from basic physics, if you have better explanation I'd like to hear it though.

 

All the forces in this sort of context are electromagnetic in nature. If there is "meshing", it just means that the forces are repulsive. If there is no meshing but, for example, van der waals forces instead, this is an attractive force. But either way it is electromagnetic forces. Even a piece of string is held together by the attractive forces between molecules. So a rock hanging on the end of a string is really held there by those forces. Yet it does no work.

See how long you can support your own body weight against gravity before you get tired. Years and years? No. Months, then? No. Days, even? No. Well if you can't do it, how come the magnet can?

How come the rock on the end of the string can? No work is done in holding an object stationary, full stop. Why do you get tired when you hold yourself up? Your arms aren't doing any work. This probably sounds absurd if you don't know what work is. Work is a force applied to an object over a distance. Equivalently, it a change in the kinetic energy of a body. So again, why do you get tired? It is because the body is an inefficient engine. Even when it does no work, it produces heat. Thus, it is using up its chemical energy in the form of glucose, and in turn producing heat. Yet no useful work is being done in this case.

So why does a magnet not get hot like the body does when it is holding itself up? The magnet is not drawing energy from its surroundings, it is not creating its own energy, and it does not contain a reservoir of energy that it is using up. The kinetic energy of the magnet is not changing. Its magnetic potential energy is not changing. It's gravitational potential energy is not changing. It is not producing thermal energy. There is absolutely no reason to think that a source of energy is required to do this. Again, rock hanging on a string people! Kooks love magnets because their properties seem so mysterious, and I doubt you'd be able to sell as many "free energy" books if your devices were based on rocks hanging on strings rather than magnets.

Edited August 29, 2011 by ballzac

[qwertyuiop]

based on rocks hanging on strings

 

I'll take 3!

No, but seriously 4. No, actually, you seem well versed in this subject do you have some sort of relating degree ballzac or just a keen googler? You don't have to answer, I'm just interested as to what level of education you've reached in your life..university, self-taught?

Edited August 29, 2011 by LUWA

[ballzac]

I'm currently doing my honours in theoretical physics, so yeah, it helps to know some of this stuff, lol

[Slybacon]

^^^^ Yep... And your gonna validate my coaster drawings once I get around to posting them.... LOL

[Roopey]

All the forces in this sort of context are electromagnetic in nature. If there is "meshing", it just means that the forces are repulsive. If there is no meshing but, for example, van der waals forces instead, this is an attractive force. But either way it is electromagnetic forces. Even a piece of string is held together by the attractive forces between molecules. So a rock hanging on the end of a string is really held there by those forces. Yet it does no work.

How come the rock on the end of the string can? No work is done in holding an object stationary, full stop. Why do you get tired when you hold yourself up? Your arms aren't doing any work. This probably sounds absurd if you don't know what work is. Work is a force applied to an object over a distance. Equivalently, it a change in the kinetic energy of a body. So again, why do you get tired? It is because the body is an inefficient engine. Even when it does no work, it produces heat. Thus, it is using up its chemical energy in the form of glucose, and in turn producing heat. Yet no useful work is being done in this case.

So why does a magnet not get hot like the body does when it is holding itself up? The magnet is not drawing energy from its surroundings, it is not creating its own energy, and it does not contain a reservoir of energy that it is using up. The kinetic energy of the magnet is not changing. Its magnetic potential energy is not changing. It's gravitational potential energy is not changing. It is not producing thermal energy. There is absolutely no reason to think that a source of energy is required to do this. Again, rock hanging on a string people! Kooks love magnets because their properties seem so mysterious, and I doubt you'd be able to sell as many "free energy" books if your devices were based on rocks hanging on strings rather than magnets.

 

THe magnetic potential energy is changing, because it is doing work. The law of attraction (gravity) is pulling on everything. The idea that magnets can't do work, is absurd, and exactly what the powers that be want us to think. No offense, but you can go read all the scientific journals and articles on this, and educate yourself to the lies they we are fed, or you can realize that the true information is out there for those that seek.

[ballzac]

Edited August 29, 2011 by ballzac