Perpetual Motion

[ballzac]

Even if you take a narrow tube and bend the top so that it's pointing down, the same forces that cause the water to climb the tube in the first place will prevent it falling out at the top.

[qualia]

"you" (meaning it's possible) can get electricity from kinetic energy now,

so, upon thinking about it for a number of seconds, it might be possible to have two magnets of opposing poles, and some sort of "trampoline", one magnet is fixed, the other magnet free but bounded within the active surface area of the fixed magnet, when the free magnet gets close to the fixed magnet it's repelled to the trampoline, which then bounces it back to the fixed magnet, and so on. set up whatever device to convert the kinetic energy from the trampoline to electricity. i feel certain this idea will work

|------------------------|

| fixed |

| magnet |

|------------------------|

^ _"

O

"

|

V

===================

|_______________|

^------------------kinetic energy generator

Edited May 12, 2011 by qualia

[Sheather]

It would be graphable as a sinusoidal function (that of a sin or cosine curve) if it were a zero-waste setup, as is I can't help but think that it would just wear down to a still magnet though. You could position it in a way that the trampoline is between the magnets too, each setup would work in similar ways.

[Gunter]

in the right system you could have a thermal cline and condense water vapor at a point higher than the point of evaportation, thus allowing a vapor/condensation cycle and different temperature averages of a closed structure to allow precipitation to be channeled to a reservoir, which powers a turbine. The stronger the warmth source the higher the return that is possible.

[dworx]

it might be possible to have two magnets of opposing poles, and some sort of "trampoline", one magnet is fixed, the other magnet free but bounded within the active surface area of the fixed magnet, when the free magnet gets close to the fixed magnet it's repelled to the trampoline, which then bounces it back to the fixed magnet, and so on. set up whatever device to convert the kinetic energy from the trampoline to electricity. i feel certain this idea will work

|------------------------|

| fixed |

| magnet |

|------------------------|

^ _"

O<-------------free magnet

"

|

V

=================== <-----------trampoline

|_______________|

^------------------kinetic energy generator

 

Magnetic forces from opposite poles will attract, you would need same poles or no worky [impossible]. Good plan otherwise, but get simple first use the spring from the tramp or somewhere else. A pivoted spring loaded arm would work, but it wont be perpetual, you will need an input of force to kick it off, and the magnets depending on quality will only last say 1000 years, the spring less, the mechanics are prone to wear whether an arm or a trampoline.

[Slybacon]

and the magnets depending on quality will only last say 1000 years,

 

For the point of the excersice you could say that if you managed to get something to go for 1000 years then you could call it perpetual motion, to a human anyway.

[ballzac]

It doesn't matter how convoluted the mechanical system is, you are still just doing the equivalent of bouncing a rubber ball, i.e. converting between potential and kinetic energies. You would be very surprised if you dropped a rubber ball from a height and it bounced off the ground and ended up going higher than where you dropped it from. Sheather's analysis is basically right, except that it wouldn't quite be sinusoidal function, as you have two basic regions, one where the elastic potential of the trampoline has an effect, and one where it doesn't. In addition to this, it is unlikely that you would have a scenario where the magnetic force is proportional to the distance from the magnet, so even without the trampoline, it wouldn't quite be sinusoidal. Then, as Sheather alluded to, you have to multiply it by an exponential decay term: e^(-kt), which accounts for friction and other losses, though again, k is unlikely to be exactly a constant.

[mud]

I like this topic.

And I firmly believe (know) its only a matter of pushing through enough established doubt in order to really make it happen, and easily.

Personally, I think the key is the human body.

Tendons can store energy. Even that tight spot in the back of your neck is stored energy.

We're constantly recycling energy anyway, whether its 'more or less'..relative to this or that.

The key to turn the engine of this perpetual motion device will be the natural biomechanics of our bodies.

Hasnt anyone seen a kungfu master take someones push, and ground and recoil it back to launch the opponent many metres?

Gravity can be that push.

And if this device allowed us to (through our correct posture) to let a falling forward energy, be recycled into a system that required a certain alignment..

then the 'perpetual motion' will kick in, as we do and channel the forces of the universe

just let me grab a beer coaster..

[ballzac]

Without fuel the body doesn't function.

[ThunderIdeal]

that is what annoyed me about the storyline in the matrix, and i can't even get people to really agree with me. you agree with me don't you BZ? the proposed energy generation in the matrix requires an input, and the input itself would be a better source of energy.

[Sheather]

There are super-secret solar sails orbiting the planet with energy feeds down to the robots... Shhh dont tell

[ballzac]

that is what annoyed me about the storyline in the matrix, and i can't even get people to really agree with me. you agree with me don't you BZ? the proposed energy generation in the matrix requires an input, and the input itself would be a better source of energy.

 

Hey, I never thought about that. Damn you! I'll never be able to watch that movie again. Perhaps the human body is a simple way of converting that energy. I mean, if you all you have as fuel is protein, carbohydrates, and fat, then the human body is the logical choice of 'furnace' if you want to convert the fuel into heat energy. Of course everything else about that movie was 100% plausible

[ballzac]

I taught a unit of biomedical physics, and stumped a lot of students with this one: In order to walk up a flight of stairs, we need to eat to have the energy. In other words, we are converting chemical potential energy in the food into gravitational potential energy between our bodies and the Earth. Why then, when we walk down stairs, (because energy is conserved) isn't this gravitational potential energy converted back into food?

[WoodDragon]

that is what annoyed me about the storyline in the matrix, and i can't even get people to really agree with me. you agree with me don't you BZ? the proposed energy generation in the matrix requires an input, and the input itself would be a better source of energy

Thunder, I've always thought exactly the same thing.

The Matrix was on again the other day, and I simply couldn't get past the thermodynamic silliness of the basic premise.

You can always spot a movie that hasn't been scientifically tweaked.

[Slybacon]

So here is a simplified version of the sketches from my beer coaster. Attached to the cam would be balanced counter weights. The shield rotates which in turn lets the magnet travel against gravity and load a spring within the cyclinder, once the shield closes the gap again the spring and gravity(counter wieghts) forces the piston back to its rest position which then in turn moves the shield to expose the next magnet(confusing? hardly). I figure that the spacing in the gaps within the shield needs to be offset with the counterwieghts. With just enough chaos in the system maybe this could work. Feel free to tear it appart!

[CβL]

I taught a unit of biomedical physics, and stumped a lot of students with this one: In order to walk up a flight of stairs, we need to eat to have the energy. In other words, we are converting chemical potential energy in the food into gravitational potential energy between our bodies and the Earth. Why then, when we walk down stairs, (because energy is conserved) isn't this gravitational potential energy converted back into food?

When we climb down the stairs, we convert E_gp into E_k. However, as a person momentarily slows (or even stops) on each step (in order to avoid gaining too much speed and falling down the steps), they have to exert a force (over a duration) on each step to cancel (or lessen) out the energy (as momentum) gained from descending the previous step.

So there's actually an energy input required to climb down stairs. Alternatively, if you were sliding down an icy ramp, you would not be injecting energy at each step (as it's a ramp) and would continue to gain momentum wantonly.

[ThunderIdeal]

Feel free to tear it appart!

 

the spring

 

[Slybacon]

^^^^ You could place a spring against the inner edge of the magnet inside the piston, may not be neccesary but if there needs to be extra energy to assist gravity in returning the piston to the inner end on the cylinder a spring would help. In a way the spring just loads the piston until the shield stops the magnet from holding it in position, once the weights are shifted and the shield rotates the magnetic field would be blocked and no longer hold the piston in the outer position.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Slybacon

[ThunderIdeal]

i have not really taken the time to properly visualise your design but that was the first problem that occurred to me, as far as i know there is a thing called metal fatigue which means that your spring has a limited functional lifespan, it will become less springy over time. edit: rather than 'over time' i should say 'with continued use'.

Edited May 16, 2011 by ThunderIdeal

[Slybacon]

^^^^ Thats why Im hoping you could get enough balance to not use the spring. I didn't include the spring in the sketch as I would want to build the most simple version first. Think of it as optional if you needed a kicker.

[ballzac]

When we climb down the stairs, we convert E_gp into E_k. However, as a person momentarily slows (or even stops) on each step (in order to avoid gaining too much speed and falling down the steps), they have to exert a force (over a duration) on each step to cancel (or lessen) out the energy (as momentum) gained from descending the previous step.

So there's actually an energy input required to climb down stairs. Alternatively, if you were sliding down an icy ramp, you would not be injecting energy at each step (as it's a ramp) and would continue to gain momentum wantonly.

 

Let's just assume that there's one step to avoid the complication of a sum of these steps. The kinetic energy at the bottom of the step is E_kf=E_gpi, where E_gpi is the potential energy at the top of the step. What you are saying is that you are doing negative work on the system to cancel out that kinetic energy. The point of the question though is that energy is conserved, so that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. That is, you have an initial state with energy E_gpi!=0 and E_ki=0, and a final state with E_gpf=0 and E_kf=0 (after you have stopped moving), the initial energy E_gp has to go somewhere. Regardless of what occurs in between, the initial and final energies of the system must be equal, yet we have E_i=E_gpi+Eki!=0, and E_f=E_gpf_E_kf=0. Therefore E_i!=E_f and energy is not conserved.

EDIT:Just to clarify. Work is done on a system by an EXTERNAL force. This is a closed system. The system being the person and the Earth. Therefore you cannot really talk about the person doing work on the system, that is, "injecting energy" into the system.

Edited May 16, 2011 by ballzac

[CβL]

Where's heat in your analysis?

[Thelema]

if there is free energy, nature itself would have ended up utilizing it in some way, through a process of natural functional selection. Pretty stupid/arrogant in my opinion to suppose that a guy with a machine can harness some force which has escaped nature for 16 billion years.

[dworx]

So here is a simplified version of the sketches from my beer coaster. Attached to the cam would be balanced counter weights. The shield rotates which in turn lets the magnet travel against gravity and load a spring within the cyclinder, once the shield closes the gap again the spring and gravity(counter wieghts) forces the piston back to its rest position which then in turn moves the shield to expose the next magnet(confusing? hardly). I figure that the spacing in the gaps within the shield needs to be offset with the counterwieghts. With just enough chaos in the system maybe this could work. Feel free to tear it appart!

 

You know the advantage of 2stroke over 4stroke, less moving parts. I am only guessing because their isn't a description of what is meant to happen, but the mag pistons are moving up and down? on a crank that turns? Why not make the magnets rotate on a disc via the repelling force of the magnets. The magnets on the outer being electro so you can fire them like in a regular motor. The rotating force can be used to drive a generator of some kind and feed to a battery bank, with some of the power produced being used to feed the electromags? The propulsion and power generation can be strengthened by using more magnets, In reality you only need one electro on the outer and that can be fired by elec ignition system or distributor. the only wear would really be in the bearings.

Edited May 17, 2011 by dworx

[mud]

Without fuel the body doesn't function.

 

Yes, and as we begin to learn to use energy better for ourselves im sure we'll understand our machines better.

Imagine running a car off your own breath,

and through biomechanical optimization.

It would be like exercise to use,

but also more of a give+take kinda relationship

rather than making passive demands upon the universe

as we now do.