purple peyote

[trucha]

The studies in the field in Mexico are on hold for CCI - probably for everyone who is sane - at least for a while.

In northern Mexico the violence level is intense right now. I've heard it said the Mexican government is sitting back and letting the drug gang war in the northeastern part kill as many of each other as possible for them before stepping in but that to me seems optimistic considering how crazy it is going farther west. When I was there I heard the civilian death count had passed 2000 but don't know how accurate that was.

Its not safe for a LOT of Mexicans in northern Mexico right now much less wandering field botanists and photographer.

Flying to Mexico City and driving north would work for many populations of course but it would be better to spend the focus elsewhere right now as there is a lot to do.

Besides DNA samples from 10 individuals from each one of the major known peyote occurrences in Mexico are already under study (although there is only one of the newest species due to the timing) so while there are many reasons for more field work in Mexico anything possible can de deferred until the survival index looks a bit nicer.

Thanks for clarification on the corn Archaea, I was basing my thoughts on some things I'd read concerning the teosinte found in Jalisco and another piece concerning humans developing corn and will look deeper into learning more about the controversy you mention.

I do have to think though significant human impact on peyote except on very localized levels if repeatedly overharvested is really a very recent and modern thing not counting the earliest known mass burnings. The populations that existed prior to the days of root plows, land clearing and more modern mass burnings were simply too large in size and numbers.

I sure would have loved to see the Peyote Gardens when ranchers were still complaining it was "like walking on mattresses" and that it was impossible to take a step without stepping on them.

Edited April 9, 2011 by trucha

[Gunter]

but how is a plant like corn, that has probably been selectively bred for XXXX years similar to a cactus that is ritualistically hunted and gathered (not selectivley bred)? interested to hear your thoughts on it.

 

I am sorry, i did not mean to imply that the cultigenic Zea and the naturalized Lophophora were similar, rather they are part of a trinity in many native cultures, along with deer. However as you likely know, plant spirits speaking to and guiding people is a major part of Native American spiritual awareness, the association of Lophophora, Maize and Deer all relate to a common spirit. In many tales concerning the discovery of Lophophora a spirit told a person, typically a woman, about the plant prior to it being 'discovered', this information might be considered in a few ways:

1, the disovery of the plant must occur before the distribution and diversity is affected by human interaction.

2, the common aspects of the mythology in different tribes that share a common ancestry along with linguistic evidence implies that the discovery of Lophophora was not recent and seems to have occurred before the diversification of the uto-aztekan language groups

3, the use of the plant seems initially, as the tales imply, not visionary or ritualized but was medicinal and even related to survival factors

there are of course other factors and aspects to consider regarding this information, but one question that emerges for me is how the ritualized use of the plant developed into what we are familiar with today. Likewise i have questions pertaining to the use of the plant and others in practices of sorcery and spiritual consultation, including why it is not used for the purposes that Trichocereus species are, including the finding of lost objects, remote viewing and magical flight, seeing the future and owning the identity of another (magical possession), however this relates strongly to trichocereus forms having different purposes and significances as well as the aptitudes of individuals. Clearly mescaline as a magic bullet for the use of peyote (and trichocereus) seems flawed to me and there appears to be far more to the use of these plants in traditional cultures than as mere visionary intoxicants. At least some peyote using groups consider visions a 'bad sign' and take the 'medicine' not for intoxication or for visions but for 'healing' purposes... i think ascribing this use to mescaline alone is perhaps overly simplistic and that this may pertain to why many plants are known as peyote, but that the name itself is not an indicator of mescaline content or even visionary capacity... rather it indicates a status as a form of medicine or spiritual tool.

I believe that the study of the information and contexts of use does have the capacity to help elucidate information pertaining to the origins and development of the forms and populations of the plant as we know it.

[kadakuda]

Oh sorry, i totally misread your previous post, I do see what your getting at here.

With the comparison to Trichocereus and Lophophora and the different uses they have, do you not think this may be due to perception of surroundings. The desserts of North america and the mountainsides of SA are surely very different and have raise very different species and varieties, including different varieties of belief systems.

But with regards to legends and the like and knowing the origin of the plants, i am not so clear. People, be it scientist, avid collector, aboriginal etc all seem to have their own take, and there are often....bent truths to avoid saying lies.... to sway to ones personal beliefs/goals. Not saying all are or are not, but there is going to be doubt. And suppose the legend was 100% accurate, their level of thinking is so incredibly different than that of western science the translation would no doubt be flawed as there probably isn't even a proper words for a lot of the things that go on in a shamans world.

How can you tell a shaman that this plant started here, spread here etc due to people, ants, birds etc when he may feel it is of divine powers? and on the flip side how can a shaman tell a scientist that the gods plotted peyote around in deer tracks, when somehow they may in fact be speaking of same things but in 2 way different methods. Shamans and aboriginal cultures really fascinate me, but i dont try to assume they are all that translatable into a western science context, so find it hard to find a way to find concrete data, in the scientific sense, from stories. they will help, Schultes did a good job at translating it seems, but there will always be errors, and if not always be doubt one one side of the the other sides comprehension of the attempted translation.

I believe that the study of the information and contexts of use does have the capacity to help elucidate information pertaining to the origins and development of the forms and populations of the plant as we know it.

Cant disagree with that

[trucha]

Some things will always be hard for science to fully and accurately sort out.

Like the different "colors" of ayahuasca that are recognized by different people. Or the different "colors" of peyote that are recognized by indigenous users (blue, white, red, purple and yellow). We can guess at some of these and are probably even right on some but there will always be some questions that don't have direct translation between the spiritual and the scientific due to different cognitive maps and realities.