Police arrest 184 in worldwide pedophile ring: Europol

[ballzac]

In the spirit of friendly discussion, I have a conundrum for you, meeka.

A fifteen year old boy has a crush on a girl his own age and fantasises about having sex with her. She leaves town and he never sees her again, but continues to have fantasies about her. He reaches the age of eighteen and his only memory of this girl is of her as a fifteen year old. Is it immoral for him to still fantasize about her? Technically he is an adult fantasizing about having sex with a child .

 

This was not a rhetorical question. I'm actually very curious as to what your thoughts are on this. I don't think this would be an uncommon scenario that adults have fantasies about children that knew when they were also children. This is also open to anyone else who claims that the urge itself is bad, not just the action.

[Sheather]

That is completely understandable Rahli.

Yes I know you described people who think having sex with children is some how loving and protective behavior towards the child but these people are very wrong.

That is not what I was talking about at all. I was speaking of people who felt an attachment to a child, and thus became protective of them. These are not necessarily constituent of people who would have sexual relations with said child. I am speaking, using true definitions of paedophile, and I have put a lot of thought and time into these views.

I am talking about pedophiles. People who have a large part of their being ( their sexuality)devoted to hurting children.

Take that back. You are implementing the wrong definitions here, and are naming paedophiles as something they are not, this was exactly what I got angry at Meeka for.

You think for thoughts of torture and murder, one should be treated normally, but thoughts of sexual relations to minors, and they should be under 24 hour watch? Regardless of that person's likelihood of acting on such a thing? I don't believe anything further I say to you will change a single thought in your head. It has become clear to me that there is the type of person that just doesn't want to listen, so here I will stop my attempt at injecting sense for some people. At least I made a couple of people think.

[ThunderIdeal]

i dunno if you can expect people to readjust the meaning of the word away from sexually obsessed with children, not necessarily implying acting on the obsession.

your definition almost makes pedophiles of us all, every parent, auntie, uncle, adult sibling.

[Amazonian]

As a parent I would rather not try to understand and accept how an individual pedophile "loves" children. They are not my responsibility. My children are my responsibility.

I am guessing that this is why Meeka displays a disinterest for the finer points of understanding where a pedophile is coming from.

 

I wasn't going to read this thread as i hate the thought of adults doing unspeakable things to children, But am glad i did. For me also, the meaning 'pedophile' meant child molestation. So i have i learned something today.

Pretty much what rahli says. I am a parent to young children, just as many here are, including meeka, and i can think of nothing worse than to have my children sexually interfered with. It is a parents worst nightmare.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Amazonian

[Distracted]

I wish I didn't read this thread :/

[synchromesh]

at this stage i think it is too far removed from the rest of the discussion to bother with here, but i'm not sure i was bragging (maybe i should check over my posts), i thought i was sharing some views on the justice side of things.

 

I know that you weren't bragging. I wasn't talking about you specifically.

[ThunderIdeal]

if anything i'm already prime suspect now, because they've got me on the internet saying "i'll fuggen kill the carnt!!"

[synchromesh]

Oh well, if the authorities do come calling, then just tell them that words are cheap.

[Sonny Jim]

"You think for thoughts of torture and murder, one should be treated normally, but thoughts of sexual relations to minors, and they should be under 24 hour watch? Regardless of that person's likelihood of acting on such a thing? I don't believe anything further I say to you will change a single thought in your head. It has become clear to me that there is the type of person that just doesn't want to listen, so here I will stop my attempt at injecting sense for some people. At least I made a couple of people think."

Why do you believe it would be a good thing if you were able to change my opinion of pedophiles? Why should I agree with you if I don't agree with you?

I get what you are saying but I don't agree with you! I am able to read and take in what you are saying and I don't agree with you. Simple as that. What you are saying does not stretch my limits of understanding nor am I frightened of your ideas and unable to process them due to a state of catatonia that you are imply comes over me which stops me from listening. I can understand what you meant when you say that you can understand a little bit of what makes pedophiles do and think as they might, that's great and how open minded of you! I don't see how your limited understanding of pedophilia is going to help any one who has to actually deal with pedophiles in a legal or mental health type setting make a decision that will keep pedophiles out of prison or a similar institution (similar in the sense that the institution would have to take away the pedophiles freedom). Going from what you have written in this thread you think that just because you are able to make a distinction between urging to do something bad and actually doing something bad that you some how have some knew and beneficial information to share that offers a new way of understanding and dealing with pedophiles. I can't see anything you have written in this thread that allows for that.

Do I think people should be in trouble for their urges which are not acted on, no I don't. But I think the argument you are trying to put is completely hypothetical and does not take into account what we actually do as a community to attempt to keep our selves safe from individuals who wish to do us harm. In Australia, if we can prove that a person has molested a child we would usually lock them up. If somebody goes to the authorities and states that they are a risk to children but have not acted on it yet (a completely hypothetical situation) then I would think the authorities would be baffled, I don't know what the authorities would do but I would think that if the pedophile kept on insisting that he was a danger to children then I would hope the pedophile is taken off the streets and put into some kind of psychiatric hospital. I would hope it is the kind of psychiatric hospital that locks people inside them because this is what the pedophile is asking for i.e. help to not start molesting children. There is no other kind of help our society could offer them. Sure the pedophile would be subject to various forms of psychotherapy but the first thing I hope would happen is that the pedophile is removed from society. Like I said earlier, mental health care professionals don't have a fool proof way of treating things like depression so I don't see how they could make a sociopath "ok" to wonder the streets. It would be nice if we had institution that could help pedophiles who ask for it without having to lock them up but that is hardly the reality we are all dealing with. I don’t like the idea of anyone serving jail time for anything but that does not really factor into the equation.

"Take that back. You are implementing the wrong definitions here, and are naming paedophiles as something they are not, this was exactly what I got angry at Meeka for."

Get real! What is wrong with my definition of a pedophile? An adult who has sex with a child is hurting that child. The pedophile might have a different way of seeing what they do to children but their way of seeing sex is wrong. Luckily it really is as simple as that. Sexuality is a large or significant part of the adult psyche/body. If your understanding of sex means that you consider having sex with a child (which is interchangeable with hurting a child), then your understanding of sex is concerned with hurting people (hurting children). Hence a large part of the pedophile's being is concerned with hurting others. Again, it does not matter to the child that the pedophile has the best of intentions lol.

I think that anyone who identifies as being a pedophile is a risk to the society in general. Just like I think any who identifies as being a serial killer is a risk to society. It is highly unlikely that these people would ever get in trouble for something they have not done because it is highly unlikely they would turn them selves in before they hurt anyone. On the off chance that a pedophile or serial killer dobs them selves in before they act on their urges, then I don’t think they would/should go to prison but I think they should be taken to a mental institution that is like a prison. That is the harsh reality we are dealing with.

[Sheather]

I think you should agree with me because you are using false definitions of words and making incorrect and ignorant statements as a result of such.

I haven't said you won't listen because of some state of catatonia. I think you won't listen because you don't want to, because you like believing what you believe and don't care to change that, and my admission that I will be unable to change those thoughts was all I was saying. In my eyes you are a lost cause.

Get real! What is wrong with my definition of a pedophile? An adult who has sex with a child is hurting that child.

THAT IS MY ISSUE. It has been explained at least three times in this thread! An adult who has sex with a child is a CHILD MOLESTER, and adult who has an urge to do so but does NOT is a paedophile*. I can make a distinction between acting and thinking, yet you seem to be unable to. You don't discern the difference between paedophilia and child molestation, and believe that all paedophiles are intrinsically child molesters.

Paedophilia is nothing more than a way of thinking. Serial killers are people who act. I'm not going to waste my time with you any further.

* Edit: Paedophiles may act on said urges, and in such cases they fall under both categorisations. That comment sounds like I'm saying paedophiles can't molest children but I don't mean it that way.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sheather

[ballzac]

SonnyJim,

You say that you understand exactly what Sheather means but simply disagree...then you go on to misinterpret/misrepresent what he is saying. He has not once said that molesting children does not hurt them. What he is saying is that pedophilia is an obsession with children, and does not always result in a person molesting children.

If your understanding of sex means that you consider having sex with a child (which is interchangeable with hurting a child), then your understanding of sex is concerned with hurting people (hurting children). Hence a large part of the pedophile's being is concerned with hurting others. Again, it does not matter to the child that the pedophile has the best of intentions lol.

No one is arguing otherwise. What I, Sheather, and others have said is that the DESIRE itself is not evil. As soon as a pedophile considers making their sexual fantasies a reality, it is completely different.

I think that anyone who identifies as being a pedophile is a risk to the society in general. Just like I think any who identifies as being a serial killer is a risk to society.

The difference is that we as a society accept people having a morbid interest in serial killers. There is plenty of fiction out there for people who are excited by the concept of serial killing, and it's perfectly legal. We only condemn people who ACTUALLY kill people. However, a pedophile will go to jail for being in possession of fictional child erotica. I don't know which is right and which is wrong, but in the context of your comment, I think it shows a massive difference in the way these two topics are dealt with.

it is highly unlikely they would turn them selves in before they hurt anyone

 

Again, I think you are missing the point that just because a person has certain desires or fantasies, does not mean they will ever act on them. I believe it is possible for a good person to have an innate attraction to children, and in this case, I find it difficult to believe they will act on it.

True, it is all mostly hypothetical anyway. It's difficult to see any practical outcome from this kind of discussion, but perhaps what some people feel is that a society that is more open and accepting of people who are sexually attracted to children but don't act on it, may actually see a lower incidence of child sexual abuse. Really if a person is made an outcast and told by society that they are evil just because of their thoughts, then they have nothing to lose (in their minds) by acting on their urges. Perhaps if they are accepted by society in spite of their feelings, there will be more incentive for them to avoid acting on those urges. Remember that a person need not be 'out' to feel ostracised by their community.

[Sonny Jim]

edit: this post is in response to what sheather just wrote.

I can make a distinction between acting and not acting. I made that distinction in the first paragraph of my first post in this thread. My issues is that you seem to think that just because the word pedophile does not imply the act, that there are actually people out their who are pedophiles and don't act on it. I doubt there are many of these people but I can understand that it is possible that they do exist. Jeez! I can't help it if you think you more enlightened than everyone else on the point of serious sexual assault. I didn't realise that disagreeing with you would hurt your feelings so badly.

I am sorry I am a lost cause to you now. I didn't realise you were trying to enlighten me and that while I was participating in this thread I was under your care my Shepard. Lucky you pointed that out or I could have gone for the rest of my life and not realised I was in the presence of greatness. Well you sure taught me a lesson.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sonny Jim

[ballzac]

My issues is that you seem to think that just because the word pedophile does not imply the act, that there are actually people out their who are pedophiles and don't act on it. I doubt there are many of these people but I can understand that it is possible that they do exist.

 

Well, this is clearly where the disagreements are stemming from. That is, you understand Sheather's definition of pedophile, but by corollary, you assume all pedophiles are child molesters and therefore assume the two terms to be synonymous. It's a good question as to how many pedophiles are out there that do not hurt (and would not consider hurting) children. I wonder how much research has been done on this and how reliable people's honesty is in anonymous surveys if they have been done.

I personally feel that I can't control my sexuality, and I assume that most other people cannot either. Considering that I have the optimistic view that most people are fundamentally good, I would assume (statistically) that most people who feel attracted to children are also good and do not act on their urges.

Edited March 19, 2011 by ballzac

[Sonny Jim]

"SonnyJim,

You say that you understand exactly what Sheather means but simply disagree...then you go on to misinterpret/misrepresent what he is saying. He has not once said that molesting children does not hurt them. What he is saying is that pedophilia is an obsession with children, and does not always result in a person molesting children."

I particularly have a problem with what sheather has written here:

"I think in relation to synchro's first * point, that most paedophiles don't act on their thoughts. Most of them are just as good of people as you or I, who would rather die to a thousand salted wounds than allow a child to be harmed, either by them or another. Remember Paedophillia translates simply to "(obsessive) love of children" and in this sense many of them become very protective of those they love, as anyone does. Those who do act and harm a child should be tortured nine different ways this side of hell.

Jesus was a Paedophile you know. (He loved everyone, remember? ) WWJD?"

Here he says that most pedophiles are good people who don’t want to hurt children. I think this is complete nonsense. I am sorry if he does not mean this but it is what he wrote and was quite clear about it.

[Sheather]

My issues is that you seem to think that just because the word pedophile does not imply the act, that there are actually people out their who are pedophiles and don't act on it. I doubt there are many of these people but I can understand that it is possible that they do exist.

The majority of those I have met or spoken to fall under the harmless group. I would say upwards of 90 - 95 percent. They find the harming of children abhorrent, and though they may find them appealing, would never do a thing with them. It's like if you watched a murder scene and found yourself aroused. You're not gonna go around killing people just to get yourself off.\

I'm glad you see where I'm coming from Sonny Jim. As your shepherd in this situation, your enlightenment is my primary concern. You should probably do a little more research on this topic before you blunder about. Inclusive in that research should be an attempt at an objective conversation with someone who identifies as a paedophile. I would say I'm more knowledgeable on the topic than most other people, as it has interested me for some years.

At least you've learned a lesson there SJ.

[Sheather]

Here he says that most pedophiles are good people who don’t want to hurt children. I think this is complete nonsense. I am sorry if he does not mean this but it is what he wrote and was quite clear about it.

Have you ever even spoken to a paedophile, knowing that they were one? I mean what I said. Nine in ten of them you would never ever know they were a paedophile. Chances are you have a friend, at the very very least an acquaintance who is one.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sheather

[Sonny Jim]

No, I have never knowingly spoken to a pedophile.

I had no idea that 9 out of 10 pedophiles were actually good people.

Edit

I also want to make it clear that I do not take your word for it sheather. Anyway just because 9-10 pedophiles you have met are really good people does not mean that 9-10 pedophiles are good people. I am sure you realise this.

Anyway.

What I am now interested in sheather is how you have access to so many pedophiles. Are you doing a study or something sheather. Can you tell us any thing about your work with pedophiles? I for one would be interested.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sonny Jim

[synchromesh]

Is Pedophilia a Mental Disorder or Natural?

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Is_Pedophilia_a_Mental_Disorder_or_Natural

[Sheather]

No, nine in ten you'd never know were paedophiles. I said that in my experience only perhaps 5-10% (1 or 2 in 20) might act on their urges. I did say that this was in my experience. I may only be skimming the nice side of the barrel, but yeah, by all means do not take my word for it, finding out for yourself is the best way to learn IMO.

I have no work, in any official capacity, no journal or papers written. The subject has just been one that has interested me over the years due to the media frenzies, perpetuated misconceptions, and simple curiosity, so I set out to learn of it.

As to how I have access? It's not so hard once you begin to look. I doubt I could re-contact those that I have spoken to, but the internet is rife with information, and people willing to speak of their thoughts.

[ballzac]

Another way I would look at it is that child molestation is a form of non-consensual sex. I don't know about you guys, but I never ask for consent before jerking off thinking about a particular chick. Therefore, if thoughts of sex with a child make you a child molester, then surely the thought of sex with another adult (without their prior consent) is a form of rape?

[synchromesh]

If it's contradictions that you're after...

Stripper dressed as a schoolgirl

Edited March 21, 2011 by synchromesh

[Sheather]

Uhm. Isn't that Cuddy? In which case, not a stripper, but dressed as a school girl, and stripping...

[Rabaelthazar]

I'm not going to get involved in the argument, just tell a quick story.

When I was in early high school (all boys school), I had a wonderful teacher. An amazing musician who inspired me to pursue my musical dreams.

He was involved with lots of extra curricular activities and clearly loved spending time with the young boys. had he wanted to molest me (or any of the other kids) he could have easily done so... I went camping with him on numerous occasions, watched tv with him in a hotel room. He never treated me with anything other than respect and kindness and certainly never touched me or tired to touch me in an inappropriate way.

A few years after I left school, he turned up in the newspapers, convicted of having sex with underage boys in the seventies (when he would have been in his 30s). He was labelled a child molester, and yeah... that's what he did.

Regardless of what he did beforehand, when I knew him he was a good role model, an excellent teacher and, in my opinion, an honest and good hearted man.

I won't defend his actions in the seventies because I wasn't there and I'll never know the full story. Obviously somebody had been hurt enough to raise the issue after a couple of decades, but it was sad to see a man I had known be brought down due to desires he obviously had come to realise were not appropriate to be acted upon.

Anyway, not sure of the point of saying this... just wanted to share.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Rabaelthazar

[dworx]

Some people would beg to differ...

Teen girl charged with posting nude photos on Internet

Understood. No need to get the hose out...

Really? Because I thought that we were addressing the topic directly...

Do you believe that every pedophile has a collection of child porn? Because this simply isn't the case... How do you know?

A paedophile has no say in whether they are a paedophile or not, just as homosexuals and bisexuals do not "choose" to be the way they are.

Sorry, but how is this equating homosexuals with pedophiles?

Well, as some of us have already said, not every pedophile is a child molester... Deal with it... again How do you know?

 

[dworx]

In other words, you'd torture the person(s) for the rest of your life? That's dark, man... I think like most parents feel he is saying they would be dead, dying a very painful death.

Child porn charges dropped against girl, 17, who photographed self

The 18-year-old boyfriend is still facing Class C-felony charges of possession of child pornography. In order to convict him, a jury would have to find either that he enticed or coerced the girl into taking the photos, or that he sold, distributed or displayed the images. If he is convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison, lifetime supervision by the Department of Corrections, listing on the Wisconsin sex offender registry, up to $10,000 fine, and restrictions on where he can work and live for the rest of his life.

Because a couple of years of getting bashed and raped is enough to "rehabilitate" them? ...I honestly don't know, but I'm betting that there would be more reasons than one.