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hutch

Police arrest 184 in worldwide pedophile ring: Europol

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^^^ While I don't agree with pre-emptive arrest with no proof and no actual crime committed, I still stand by my position that there will ALWAYS be a CHANCE that a self-identified paedophile MIGHT take the next step and if I wouldn't leave any of my child relatives (hell any child) alone for substantial periods of time with someone who identifies as such. I just don't think it's worth a child's lifetime of anguish.

Unfortunately non-paedophilic child molesters (incestual/ non-specific molesters) are probably a far bigger worry partly because they're often family members in direct charge of the child, there are even more damaging mental issues to deal with (eg lack of future trust in people supposed to "love" you etc), but worst of all, outsiders won't be as likely to see what's going on and intervene.

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Hutch bro, I think you are in fact reading my posts all wrong. where i live currently there is a VERY ( I mean VERY**) strong cultural belief system that goes more or less like this.

you listen to your elders

you dont even hold hands until you have graduated

once you finish school you get married have kids

28 is getting too old to have kids, but many still wait.

my nephew has his grandfather follwo himn around, unknowingly, when they foudn out he had a girlfirend (hold hands and kissing, my god). my wife, when she was young as she told me, was hit a few times by her dad when he foudn out she liekd a boy who was poor. this is the social aspect i am talking about.

I am not trying to talk about the age age limits for sex so much as the social pressures we put on everyone to follwo in line. Do you feel it is ok to beat your child for loving a poor person? in your country, and mine, that is wrong. but it is 100% social based. In your country and mine, elders havign sex with minors, whatever age gap that may be, is wrong. again i agree, and am personally against 12 year olds with 30 years olds, but i am saying that is *our* beliefs and not everyone elses. and this is also 100% social.

some places do accept young women to have sex. not trying to get into traditional systems and that, but some social frame works allow it.

sex is sex. when i mention sex, i mean sex. i dont mean raper or pregnancy. sure they are related, but not the same. rape is forced, pregnancy is not using protection and going full term, but it is not exactly sex.

so, and I am playing devils advocate here, are you saying that sex between 2 13 years old people is ok, while sex between a 13 and 25 year old is not. why or why not? does 25 and 45 make a difference? why?

I am jsut trying to state that if someone wishes somehting upon themselves, truly and deeply, where do we stand to stop them? I know some dont feel it the same as tdrug laws, but why not? if i wish to take heroin, i know there are health risks, or maybe i dont. I still feel tis my right to choose to take it. If i choose to have sex, i know there is risk of STDs, pregnancy etc, but its still my choice to make it. If i choose to shoot myself in the head cause i am some kind of messed up mentally, its my choice to make it. now the real me does not agree with some of those terrible things, and i agree with all you guys defending kids and victims. but where is the line of personal freedom and taking advantage of?

my wifes uncle, 52 now, met his wife at age 16 when he was 29. clearly illegal and her mother called the police and went through everything. she still hates him to this day and will not allow him near her. But the 2 are totally in love, have 2 good kids (which i teach) and they are a great family. should he have been put in jail for 15 years and the kids be not born? she consented and had sex, while young, with an older man. thats disgusting by most people heres opinion, but the family is truly an amazing one, and the kids are pretty normal and cool themselves.

im not challenging laws to prevent harm, in the least. but i do challenge laws that harm legitimate couples in love. how the magical numbers 18/19/21 etc came about is beyond me, but legitimate loving, consensual people i feel do not deserve to be tortured via jail systems where they are likely to learn the real meaning of what rape is....seems wrong to me. And in our societies it seems ok to put away someone without second though, which is scary. but i didnt start posting in this thread thinking i would be agreed with. but i really hope that people start being a tad less cruel and think outside the abuse box. there are legitimate loving people on the planet, not everyone is out to murder and rape, but those people are treated no different from teh real monsters. which makes the protectors not much better than the predators in my book, in fact the protectors end up being the predators....just a different prey.

hutch, really sorry you think im some kind of whack job. im really not, but you only know me through these words so you wont ever know really. I am faithful to my wife, we love each other. but i am also very strong willed towards not punishing people who do nothing truly wrong. i find the act of jailing someone for true love as appalling as rape itself.

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IIRC some posters like zac went some way towards answering your question but 'where do you draw the line?' is quite relevant isn't it?

all i know is, that as a teenager i thought i knew a lot more than i did. i say this with immense respect for young people: young people are fools, enormous fools. with the other laws, i believe you should be able to legally use heroin or kill yourself if that's your choice, perhaps after some mediation with a social worker or something i dunno, but surely there has to be something akin to an age limit or else all of those wonderful freedoms just turn into pitfalls that youngins will most likely not be able to avoid. face it a very large percentage of adults are not responsible enough for those freedoms, how many kids do you think would be?

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exactly.

But why the age 18 then? just cause there must be an age? im not totally against that as a general rule, but there must be room to deviate on a case to case basis. I agree, young people are not as mature (usually) or educated as when they are older. i did things then that are fucking dumb, and i wouldnt think of even pretending to do again. and 10 years from now i will probably say the same thing about something i did this year. so where is that line. we will also grow more mature, we will always become more educated and hopefully make better decisions for ourselves.

18 for sex.

__ for suicide

__ for heroin

__ for ___?

i think that when it comes to kids especially, people put aside some common sense and go full blown protection based on their social conditioning. which is instinct, and makes sense to protect ones young. i understand all this. much like i understand the war on drugs, but that does not make 100% of those actions the best possible outcomes.

didnt Australia try and pass laws something to the effect A cups couldnt do porn as to prevent possible child molestation? i dont remember the whole story, and I read it here at SAB. was that a real thing? If so, which side of the line is that on to folks around here? I find it quite absurd personally, but that doesnt make me in favor of child molestation.

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the age of consent in vatican state is 12

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in 1929 when that was the italian age of consent

didnt Australia try and pass laws something to the effect A cups couldnt do porn as to prevent possible child molestation? i dont remember the whole story, and I read it here at SAB. was that a real thing? If so, which side of the line is that on to folks around here? I find it quite absurd personally, but that doesnt make me in favor of child molestation.

 

COOOOONNNNNNNNNNNRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

it is absurd, although i can see how it would make it easier to throw people in prison, in the same way that the looming federal plant bans will.

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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kadakuda's position is known as cultural relativism if I am understanding him correctly. This can be generalised to mean that all of our ethics are based on cultural bias. I know plenty of very intelligent people who believe in - and abide by - the ethics of our society, who believe this to be true. This may seem like a contradiction, but it is well and truly possible for people to feel strongly that, for example, killing a person is wrong, while at the same time being aware that such a belief is based on their cultural conditioning. This philosophy does not even require that there be a culture that allows such things, and in this case cultural relativists hold that all cultures have the same cultural bias.

A common misunderstanding of cultural relativism (and if I understand kadakuda's position, the cause of people misinterpreting his posts) is that cultural relativists are against intervention when something occurs in a culture in which that practice is seen as okay, but is seen as unethical from our culture's perspective. In reality, cultural relativism not only 'accepts' other cultures' biases, but also accepts our own cultures bias that such practices are immoral, therefore accepting our need to follow our own ethical system by imposing those ethics on other cultures. This adds a layer of complexity to the argument, but is an unavoidable conclusion drawn from following that logic. Hence, a cultural relativist may despise another culture's ethical system, and proactively campaign against their practices, all the while being aware that those ethics, as well as their own, are based on cultural bias.

If I have misunderstood, misinterpreted, or misrepresented you position, kadakuda, please correct me.

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didnt Australia try and pass laws something to the effect A cups couldnt do porn as to prevent possible child molestation? i dont remember the whole story, and I read it here at SAB. was that a real thing? If so, which side of the line is that on to folks around here? I find it quite absurd personally, but that doesnt make me in favor of child molestation.

Didn't Max Hardcore get thrown in jail because an adult woman claimed she was 12 in one of his films? I can't remember the exact reasons and might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was something along those lines.

Based on Max Extreme 4' date=' the city of Los Angeles in 1998 charged him with child pornography and distribution of obscenity. The fact that the actress was over the age of 18 was not disputed; they brought charges based solely on the fact that the actress was portraying a character who was underage.[/quote']

Okay, if wikipedia is to be believed, those charges were dismissed. Max Hardcore's actual incarceration was for obsenity due to urination, fisting, and vomiting in his movies.

Edited by ballzac

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as i understood it, his store accidentally sent dvd's to a state where those dvd's had since become illegal.

cultural relativism, that's interesting, i can kinda see it, live and let live on something of a national level. on the other hand, the golden rule. how can 'treat others how you would like to be treated' apply when there is sexism, racism and caste systems.

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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Ballzac, thanks for the post. Thats the first time i have ever heard of the term "cultural relativism". I am not lumping myself into that category. All i am trying to do is ask questions many people seem afraid to ask, doesnt mean i agree with absolute conviction. I sense a lot of sexism in this kind of discussion (not here, but everywhere). Meaning more people want to protect the female sex over the male sex, and there is probably some justified reasons such as possible pregnancy and the physical reality that a vagina can get harmed easier than a penis. I am not saying people here, but throughout my life i have sensed a general reality that when a young male has sex, it is more a bragging right, and when a same aged female has sex its almost like pity how she is treated.

there are so many isms. 70 years ago it was socially unacceptable for a white to marry a black. in certain communities, that was know to be the right way, don't allow different race sex/marriage. know the greater society thinks otherwise, but they didn't "back then" necessarily.

I knew before i posted my posts i would probably get labeled something bad, but i always feel someone needs to ask questions that are not liked in a bias conversation, otherwise the outcome is turning a blind eye to the innocent. to the original post of the peopel getting arrested on child porn, i have not quarrel against their prosecution, but i cant form a real opinion as i am 100% ignorant to all the facts. i read the media reports and form my opinion, which is jail them, but i am not so naive to think my opinion is educated and 100% right.

here is a scenario that happened when i was in school. 2 students made video and took photos of themselves having sex. something adults do as well. I think we all agree this is rather harmless. They put their vid/pics on the computer, which is in reality property of their parents in their parents house. I asked them at the time what would happen if the computer was seized during a raid (the parents grew a lot of pot in the attic of the house). the parents could liekly get nailed with child porn. what if the kids emailed the pics to friends? distribution? what if the kids were adopted, or one parent was not biological, if we saw it in the newspaper, we automatically assume: child molester. I do too, and i have to stop myself from assuming the worst when i dont have ANY real information.

i was thinking about this on my way to work earlier after my previous post. I am admittedly bad at putting my true thoughts down on paper, so excuse me if this is also offending someone. I am thinking the word emancipation may be appropriate. last time i looked at my country's law for minors to gain independence from their parents, it was 16. The way i see things, if someone is mature enough to sustain themselves, work, pay taxes etc, they are mature enough to decide to have sex or not. now on a side shoot of this i was also thinking that people often look at 40 year olds sexing up 15 year olds as wrong. but in our society a 20 year old can have sex with a 70 year old and all we do is giggle and think gold digger. So my question is what is the difference between a 20 year old and a 60 year old when we argue against sex with people under 18 (or whatever age is the legal limit)?

to answer that i think we really need to define what exactly we find wrong about the whole situation?

is it the danger for the minor? physical or mental? mental problems i find are almost certainly social. people ridicule the person for having sex with an old person....in that case maybe focusing attention on limiting assholes running their mouths is more crucial. I know exactly how mean people can be to their peers, especially in middle/high school.

if its physical, why? STD's and pregnancy are not a problem with youth, they do not discriminate between age, so why do we in this sense. any age can get stds, and any mature person, and women before menopause can theoretically get pregnant. this is also a social/education thing. protect yourself against it, be smart to use protection, choose wisely who you make love to, abstain. those are basic human rights they should be able to choose.

or is it people under a certain age are not [mentally] mature enough? i think this is the real issue that most people have, because other points are hollow and can be easily broken apart. at what age can a person think for themselves? this is such a gray area, it cannot be standardized. to standardize an age limit for this sort of thing is not possible in any kind of fair way, so some people suffer. In our social structures in most "developed" areas, this seems to be unavoidable, and i have no thoughts on how to make it work either. But us not knowing does not make something right.

Again, i think the drug war and the issue of minors having sex is very alike (I use drug war because of the nature of the site). "PROTECT THE CHILDREN". a noble fight, no doubt but one that often blinds us with emotion and seems to turn more into blood lust for anything that may harm them instead of shedding all our discrimination and looking at the real hard facts, even if we are not comfortable doing so. look at the recent Salvia situation in Canada for an absolute perfect example of how we as a society, through government, allow tyranny due to ignorance, impatience and oppressive belief systems.

I am not sure, to be honest, how one can make a better system in this regard, all I am trying to do is raise some points that kids having sex with older people is not so black and white as rape or not rape. Foreign brides is also a wonderful comparison. Many brides are "purchased" for sex. Its technically consensual sex for money (prostitution really). So what i am saying is i draw no differentiation between a foreign bride sold by gang members against her true will to some guy to play with or a child being molested by his or her teacher. I have seen both situations unfold around me, and I have done what i think is right by informing the police. This is because it seems as far as anyone in this social structure thinks is not really consensual. Now my wifes brother also has a foreign bride, but i converse with her daily and she actually does want to be married and has had one child with him. They are all foreign brides, but she from her heart, seems to want it. I have no beef with that. As I would not have beef with a 14 year truly wanting a relationship with an older person. but courts have no time or inclination to dig into it. its a black and white iron fist, and this is where i find there to be some pretty sick and twisted results through social acceptable avenues.

Ballzac, i have no knowledge of that situation with the movie(s). but if someone got arrested for pretending to be a kid and peeing on film, ya i have a problem with that. because they are physically torturing someone (i consider jail a form of torture, that does not say that I am fully against jail) for pretending to do something that is completely natural. pee is natural. poo is natural. penis, vagina, nipples, anus is all natural. I may not want to see it, but i have no problem with it been seen. For the record I am also pro public nudity, although i am very much uncomfortable with it myself, but i strongly disagree with punishing people for being their own body. How our society decided it is ok to jail people for being in their body is fucking beyond words how retarded that is. Although its interesting to note that many societies that are so harshly against people having sex under say 17-20 but babies and children are ok to walk around naked. as so as their balls drop of breasts start to grow, they cannot be naked. I understand the protective instinct involved. But it does not make it any more logical.

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I had a 20 minute conversation with a 9 year old at the park the other day, about our dogs. She was at the park by herself, I was under the impression that she lived next door, and that her mum was like, shouting distance away, but it was refreshing to not be looked at askance for spending more time than would take to humor her in actual conversation.

We talked about our dogs :)

Though off topic, it's slightly relevant to some of what has been discussed earlier.

 

For all you know, you could have protected her from a possible attack.

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that was a good flick. And it cleared something up i didnt realize. pedophilia is for prepubescent people. that is something that i agree with. that prepubescent dont really have any excuse to have sexual relations with as the body just isnt physically or most likely mentally there yet. i think that video had a pretty neutral stance, which i like to see. and they mad a good point about 2 situations: mass hatred or uncomfortable silence. issues as important as this should be discussed far more openly i feel without instant anger fused into the conversation.

as a side note, we just learned that one of our (female) students has been having sex with a 20 year old. she has always been bragging about learning some new sex thing, she is just a hyper needing attention kind of girl, and her parents have asked us to try and talk to her and get her a little more "down to earth". anyway, she is 14, had sex with a 20 year old. That is not what bugs me so much as they are cousins. I am curious what you guys might think of that? She wanted to and as we were told by her friends, she searched him out and wanted to have sex....she didn't care who. so for this i don't really think anyone there is wrong, but inter family sex i have bad feelings about, though i cant pinpoint why....just seems wrong.

now what i feel is the saddest part of the whole thing is that the parents, who foudn out, are locking her up. as in they drive her to public school, pick here up and she stays in her house at all times uless with the parents. As many of you may know, doing this to a teenager is a certain form or cruelty. what can one do? to be frank, the parents are shit as are most in this area and they dont raise or spend time with their kids, they only punish them when they do something they dont like (much like a government), so it saddens me to see so many kids hurt from all angles without any form of *actual* caring help. But these types of parents never are capable of being told they are wrong, and become instant angry screaming enemies if you try and reason with them about how they may possibly be doing harm to their kids by not raising/reacting harshly. never a dull day in a school. I can honestly say parenthood is a bitch, even though we dont have teenagers. but seeing all the ones we teach, I am not looking forward to it lol.

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One could say that that could be classified as a form of torture, and thus a breach of International Human Rights. Complete regulation of movement by an outside force, yeah I'd call that psychological torture.

Having said that, I doubt anything would come of it if you tried to get something done about it. Perhaps that's what you should say to their parents? A bluff (or non bluff) to call them to justice for an international crime against a child.

They might react to that where they don't to reason. Your call though eh, I don't know the bastards.

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synchro. I have not seen her since, so i am only going by word of mouth, which is not a good way of knowing anything. but as i know it they have done it 3 separate times before the parents found out. I am not getting involved unless i hear something physical is being done. the amount of shit i see, hear and know here is really hard to take (the reason we will be moving back to canada). Countryside in traditional asian countries are a different world. its not all bad, but there is some real bad shit that goes on behind the scenes and sometimes it gets really big. the senator here covered up her daughter raping another and nothing has come of it because of the real threats and safety of anyone that comes up. I dont stand up to things here anymore, because its not like back home where you can stand up on something and not have to stay awake at night thinking someone will come lol. not that i think this situation would, but you never know some people i have known for a few years i have found out to be really psychotic. If anything I am more worried about her cousin...as far as repercussions.

so ya sheather, i agree with you. but to come clean, I am just not brave enough anymore to deal with all these things (and shit happens weekly...)

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so ya sheather, i agree with you. but to come clean, I am just not brave enough anymore to deal with all these things (and shit happens weekly...)

I reckon that's completely understandable kadakuda. Do what you think best :)

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