apes evolved into humans by taking magic mushrooms book

[fraser miller]

A nice idea but I thought the original by Terence was a pretty ordinary read to be honest. Archaic Revival had much more going for it.

The argument itself seems kind of insulting to homo sapien sapien creativity. I think the contention was that homo erectus or thereabouts developed into Cromagnon man and began creating art because of the influence of Psilocybes on the brain; that they some how instigated development of homo sapien sapien abstract thinking and artistic creativity and spiritualism.

Abstract thinking, imagination and creativity are more likely evolutionary characteristics that developed to benefit human hunting for survival; infact most evolutionary changes in all animals and plants relates to achieving the most successful phenotype in the face of environmental stimuli for survival purposes. If we look at the specification of Psilocybes themselves we can see that certain characteristics over time that have appeared to exploit particular environments or substrates have taken.

The apparent ignorance of indigenous Australians to Psilocybes also seems pretty compelling. Similarly there is little if any evidence that the Maori exploited the many species of Psilocybes apparent in NZ.

As for the pineal gland, it produces melatonin.

 

The theorey may seem dry an unentertaining but really thats of little relevence its purpose is more about truth and intellectual thought than a project to entertain. Food of the gods was an extremely monumental book in my mind, because it mentions the very truth that is central to how us humans got here yet live in the modern age with billions of people who are unaware that humans evolved from, and something like that is amazing far from ordinary, so i wouldn't exact say this book is an ordinary read, its something rare and precious and uttermost importance and should be taken very seriously.

Also I'm not sure if i understand what you mean when you say

"Abstract thinking, imagination and creativity are more likely evolutionary characteristics that developed to benefit human hunting for survival" WHen u say more likely what exactly r u comparing it to, i don't wuite get what you are trying to say, certainly abstract thinking, imagination and creativity can help survival but they have other purposes other than that.

As for the ignorence ofmushrooms I find it strange aswell but my opened enlightened mind understands there are reasons for this, I mean we don't know if aboriginals used magic mushrooms 60,00 years ago in australia or 10,000 or what happened but there art would have been past down from the "ancestor spirits" who came from overseas who defintly took them and would have brought the culture and mythology overseas when they settled, it remains a great mystery what australian aboriginals relationships with the shrooms were, aboriginals are very secretive and only a grain of sand on the beach of what they know is actually recorded for non aboriginies, plus alot of there culture has been wiped out and some of there most sacred cermonies havn't been performed in 100 years after 1000s of years of ritual use.

[fraser miller]

"From my understanding, Rick Strassman stated that there is a possibility that DMT is released from the pineal gland in humans and that idea has been run with and Chinese whispered around so much that a lot of people take it as absolute fact that DMT exists naturally in the human body. I personally haven't seen any scientific evidence for it, but it could be out there... if anyone can point in the direction of proof that DMT is produced in the human body, please link here.. I'd be keen to see."

Use google u'll find information on it, aparently dmt is in every living thing not just the pineal gland anyway.

"As for your book, Fraser... Best of luck. Terrence McKenna worked hard for many years to be taken seriously. I don't know your background, but it could be a difficult subject to write a book about and convince the scientific community if you don't have anything (prior articles, academic involvement, scientific or historic accomplishments etc...) backing your name up."

I think credentials and qualifications are a joke and people take them way to seriously. Really when it comes down to whats being said, its irrelevant. An opionion or thereoy, thought ect shouldn't really be taken any more or less seriously depending on who it is, or what they have done in most contexts. I like the "think for yourself logic" if everything were anomonous people and people wern't so judgement and thought to themselves about what the person was saying we'd have alot less jackoffs running the world and alot more smart people in power. I like to think of society as a whole or the system as one massive man with a gigigantic resumes, who every1 takes seriously but simply put is stupid.

"One more thing... and I don't like to be negative, but it has to be said. I hope your book gets a thorough proof reading. Your post didn't read very well and some of your terms seemed mixed up, ie: logistical in place of logical.

"

I really need an example I can't extrapolate much from this. I mean unless u show me the flaws they remain hidden, i more sorta left floating with criticism that something could be better but i don't know what that is so it dosn't really help. As for proof reading alot of the stuff is type here is just internet casual written stoned tired n lazily, unlike my book.

"Can you tell us a bit more about yourself? What inspired you to start this project? Have you done any research outside of the internet? I personally think the stoned ape theory is feasible, although in a lot of respects, proving it would be about as difficult as proving whether Jesus actually existed. Actually, far more difficult than that - Jesus is within our recorded history whereas the origin of human life is... well nobody really knows, do they?"

I'm 19, I'm a rock n roll sorta guy I play electric guitar. I'm 100% convinced its true because all the puzzle pieces fit. I can translate all the almost all creation myths of the world into the story of apes taken mushrooms, almost every religion was also based on psychedelic use. The whole mythology, folklore, holidays ect. of human history revolves around them. you really need to see my evidence as a collective whole to understand as much as i do. Just for the record, jesus has been proven to be the magic mushroom, read the sacred mushroom and the cross by john marc alegro. This is why christians drink christs blood and red wine and say it is the body of christ because they don't realise he was actually the mushrooms and that grapes are the forged version of the forbbiden fruit.

Anyway, welcome to the forums. Hope you can gather some useful information here.

 

[fraser miller]

maybe "brain" would be a better word than "mind".

good luck w/your book.

 

Thanks heaps for pointign that out main

I defintly agree, getting the right words is tiresome I'm more of a painter don't always have the right words but people still understand what i mean. but i'll make sure with each draft it will be shaped to be better and as best as it can be.

[fraser miller]

I guess my angle is that I doubt that psychedelics or mushrooms in particular had any major impact on human biological or cerebral evolution. They would almost certainly however have had a strong influence in certain cultures on spiritual and religious thought and perhaps architecture (Palenque in particular).

Personally I also accept that these mushrooms may facilitate a closer connection or resonance with the natural enviroment or nature in general.

But Im confused how mushrooms that contain indoles that work on specific serotonin-related receptors in the brain have some how catalysed cerebral development and evolution when there are already established and accepted reasons for this evolutionary process.

 

dude read food of the gods, or look at terrences stoned ape lecture. One example of mushrooms evolving the brain woudl be the jump from 50s culture to the emergence 60s culture

The established and accepted reasons have been proven wrong. read food of the gods or something. cbf explaining i'm more asking for help here than to explain everything, u'll c in my published book.

[fraser miller]

Thanx for help, I'm going to read the spirit molecule as part of my research.

[Zen Peddler]

Ive read nearly all of Terence's work. So I dont get your point.

And you can hardly argue that the writing of a sequel to Food of the Gods is purely an intellectual exercise when there is very little about the argument that is intellectual. The evidence is questionable at best - based usually on modern interpretations of a few random etchings, defies basic rules of evolutionary theory and the biology of specification and common sense.

Its like explaining stealth technology as being back engineered UFO technology - the most ridiculous and least plausible possibility becomes the one that is most appealling.

Human abstract thought developed to provide homo sapien sapiens with an advantage. Its by products are religion, art and creativity.

And as for indigenous Australian consuming magic mushrooms, Psilocybe cubensis and Panaeolus cyanescens arrived in Australia with cattle. Psilocybe subaeruginosa is also so closely matched with Psilocybe cyanescens that is unlikely it originated from Australia either.

[Rabaelthazar]

Mate, you've come on to the forums asking for advice/feedback on your idea of writing a book, people have offered it to you and you've been very selective in what you've chosen to take on board.

I want to say that I admire your enthusiasm... you're obviously very passionate about this topic, but I honestly think you're not ready to write a book about this. You say you're nineteen? You were two years old when I first became interested in entheogens and I've been researching myself since then so I take your comment

Use google u'll find information on it, aparently dmt is in every living thing not just the pineal gland anyway.

 

to be dismissive. I am positive that what I've learned in 17 years is at least equal to the knowledge you've gained from the internet over the last twelve months. I stand by what I said: to the best of my knowledge, DMT existing in humans and every living thing is a hypothesis that has not been scientifically proven. I think that before you could write a book that would be taken seriously (which is what you said in your first post to be your goal) by even the entheogen community, let alone the community at large, you really need to do a lot more research, not only into those articles that back up your ideas but also those that oppose them.

Yes, you will find information about DMT existing naturally in every living thing, mostly from a lot of second, third, fourth hand sources, all basing their info on the suggestion from Strassman. If you delve into the depths of Google, you'll also find claims that humankind has only been around for 1000 years and that all history from before that time actually took place in the Renaissance Period. You'll find claims that George Bush is a reptilian alien. Both those theories have a lot of followers/believers but it doesn't make them necessarily true.

I think credentials and qualifications are a joke and people take them way to seriously. Really when it comes down to whats being said, its irrelevant. An opionion or thereoy, thought ect shouldn't really be taken any more or less seriously depending on who it is, or what they have done in most contexts. I like the "think for yourself logic" if everything were anomonous people and people wern't so judgement and thought to themselves about what the person was saying we'd have alot less jackoffs running the world and alot more smart people in power. I like to think of society as a whole or the system as one massive man with a gigigantic resumes, who every1 takes seriously but simply put is stupid.

 

I like your thinking, but if you want to be taken seriously, you need to accept that most accepted theories have years and years of research and first hand evidence/experience to back them up. Without these things, you may have a difficult time finding a publisher willing to take on your work.

Just for the record, jesus has been proven to be the magic mushroom, read the sacred mushroom and the cross by john marc alegro. This is why christians drink christs blood and red wine and say it is the body of christ because they don't realise he was actually the mushrooms and that grapes are the forged version of the forbbiden fruit.

 

I love the Jesus was an Amanita theory, but it is very far from proven. I think there was even a thread on here recently about who/what Jesus was. There were about fifteen different theories put forward, all as unprovable as the next. Your claim that this is proven fact just indicates again that you really need to do a hell of a lot more research and exploration, otherwise your book is going to make you look like a brainwashed amateur.

I really need an example I can't extrapolate much from this. I mean unless u show me the flaws they remain hidden, i more sorta left floating with criticism that something could be better but i don't know what that is so it dosn't really help. As for proof reading alot of the stuff is type here is just internet casual written stoned tired n lazily, unlike my book.

 

I gave you an example: logistical in place of logical.

I'm 19, I'm a rock n roll sorta guy I play electric guitar. I'm 100% convinced its true because all the puzzle pieces fit.

 

Belief is a double edged sword. Can give you something to feel right about and can also blind you from alternate truths. Having 100% conviction in the stoned ape theory is as unhealthy (in my opinion) as having 100% conviction in the bible being an accurate history of mankind.

I'm not trying to discourage you from writing your book. I think it's a great idea. I just think you need to do a lot more research and exploration before you will be ready to write from an authoritative point of view.

Best of luck.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Rabaelthazar

[ballzac]

Also, if you want to write persuasively, you need to learn as much as you can about opposing theories and spend a considerable amount time in your book rebutting/debunking these theories.

[botanika]

Your chasing a ghost. Unless you find some amazing genetic evidence.

Far more likely that 1) rich artistic/cultural innovation started far earlier than scientists can formally state due to lack of evidence. So much early art is lost to degradation and there were simply smaller populations of people then so finding evidence is hard. 2) environmental pressures (eg ice ages) and climate change forced or attracted us into new habitats or to innovate new technologies and organisation, that lead to more sophiticated expression. 3) mushrooms were not common enough or unlikely to have been ingested commonly enough to have played such a significant role in the evolution of an entire species. Abstract thinking and artistic/cultural expression is a superb ecological adaption. Its far more likely that groups with strong innovative ideas became successful fitter communities. Cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits.

Monumental adaptive changes occur from monumental environmental changes like dealing with 300m thick ice sheets enveloping and retracting across half the planet.

Also regarding aborigines, as far as I know, there is no evidence that psilocybe species were even in australia before european settlement. Certainly cubes and pans came with cattle but I have not seen any evidence that psilocybe subaeruginosa has been present in australia for any great length of time. They are similar to PNW american species and it could well have come out with early forestry or gold mining activities (just a theory!) because there was knowledge, equipment and botanical exchange happening between california in particular and australia regarding those activities. That is the book you should write: 'The origin of psilocybe species in australia'.

Edited January 21, 2011 by botanika

[Zen Peddler]

Fraser I dont want to be an arsehole but I dont think your looking at things impartially.

you sound almost religious. This and that has been 'proven' - which in other words means you've read Food of the Gods and maybe five other sources that all conform to your preconceived opinion of the reality of the situation and youve just accepted them as 'the truth'. The reason people with credentials tend to be better respected is because, rather than just accepting a few sources they research things properly and construct an argument coherantly.

Your arguments have far more to do with belief than with reasoning.

Not everyone enjoys mushrooms. I know plenty of people that tried them and fucking hated them for various reasons. Its unlikely something that a sizable minority of people would never touch again after a single injestion is unlikely to have a significant impact on things.

I think credentials and qualifications are a joke and people take them way to seriously. Really when it comes down to whats being said, its irrelevant. An opionion or thereoy, thought ect shouldn't really be taken any more or less seriously depending on who it is, or what they have done in most contexts. I like the "think for yourself logic" if everything were anomonous people and people wern't so judgement and thought to themselves about what the person was saying we'd have alot less jackoffs running the world and alot more smart people in power. I like to think of society as a whole or the system as one massive man with a gigigantic resumes, who every1 takes seriously but simply put is stupid.

Credentials have nothing to do with what we are talking about. The quality of the reasoning behind an argument does. One man crapping on in a book doesnt quality as scientific evidence. Any one can do that on any topic. Sure people with credentials tend to defend their positions in society because if they didnt people might realise any old wanker off the street could do the same as them. But if you want to get an argument published you need to provide genuine and plausible evidence, not just third person opinion.

Jesus has been proven to be a magic mushroom

Oh ofcourse, there is volumes of evidence that demonstrate this. And god actually appointed George Bush as president of the states - people believe that as well.

I know probably more about this topic than you realise and I can clearly say that your chances of getting published are on a similar level to a book about ghosts.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Zen Peddler BlueGreenie

[fraser miller]

U guys need to open ur minds up a bit. This theorey is very possible, i know because i have evidence to prove it, so don't be quick to judge and ull c wen i realese the book. enough with the criticism, I'm lookign for help to prove the theorey. I'm not here to explain the theorey or argue about it with everyone, it just takes to long.

[fraser miller]

Fraser I dont want to be an arsehole but I dont think your looking at things impartially.

""you sound almost religious. This and that has been 'proven' - which in other words means you've read Food of the Gods and maybe five other sources that all conform to your preconceived opinion of the reality of the situation and youve just accepted them as 'the truth'. The reason people with credentials tend to be better respected is because, rather than just accepting a few sources they research things properly and construct an argument coherantly.

Your arguments have far more to do with belief than with reasoning. ""

give us an example? otherwise its a really pointless comment. U havn't read the book so you havn't actaully herd my arguments so are in no position to judge me or my book whatsoever. When i say its been proven i mean its be proven to me because i have the evidence. Also growup, credentials is a bunch of fuking bulshit, thats what ur'v been brought up to belive, the truth is, a great deal of the people who have changed the world were dropouts with the shittest credentials, so credentials is irrelevant and creates prejudice.

""Not everyone enjoys mushrooms. I know plenty of people that tried them and fucking hated them for various reasons. Its unlikely something that a sizable minority of people would never touch again after a single injestion is unlikely to have a significant impact on things.""

Well uh actaully even if some people may not that dosn't matter because most people who try them do, so the ones who didnt r still apes.

Credentials have nothing to do with what we are talking about. The quality of the reasoning behind an argument does. One man crapping on in a book doesnt quality as scientific evidence. Any one can do that on any topic. Sure people with credentials tend to defend their positions in society because if they didnt people might realise any old wanker off the street could do the same as them. But if you want to get an argument published you need to provide genuine and plausible evidence, not just third person opinion.

Oh ofcourse, there is volumes of evidence that demonstrate this. And god actually appointed George Bush as president of the states - people believe that as well.

I know probably more about this topic than you realise and I can clearly say that your chances of getting published are on a similar level to a book about ghosts.

 

[fraser miller]

""Your chasing a ghost. Unless you find some amazing genetic evidence."

It can be proven without genetics, open ur mind dude u don't need genectics to prove something. farout.

""Far more likely that 1) rich artistic/cultural innovation started far earlier than scientists can formally state due to lack of evidence. So much early art is lost to degradation and there were simply smaller populations of people then so finding evidence is hard. 2) environmental pressures (eg ice ages) and climate change forced or attracted us into new habitats or to innovate new technologies and organisation, that lead to more sophiticated expression. 3) mushrooms were not common enough or unlikely to have been ingested commonly enough to have played such a significant role in the evolution of an entire species. Abstract thinking and artistic/cultural expression is a superb ecological adaption. Its far more likely that groups with strong innovative ideas became successful fitter communities. Cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits.""

1.)What does this 1 have to do with being more likely than this theorey, when its not somethign that replaces its, thsi is actauly a good point and is on topic but is another argument and is somehtign i agree with and it fits with the theorey so its not soemthing that is far more liklely its something that is likely.

2.)Again this isn't a case of beign far mroe likely than the theorey this is actaulyl part of the stoned ape theorey, apes migrated due to the dryign of the sahara desert whcih led them to go from the jungkles to the grasslands and try new foods like the shrooms that grow there. 3.) That is complete bulshit mushrooms are extremly common and are found all over the world and in every culture and religion sicnce the dawn of time. Also with the last comment ""Its far more likely that groups with strong innovative ideas became successful fitter communities."" u use the term far mroe likely again im not argueing with this so it isn't "far mroe likely"" this is a foundation of one of the arguments and that muhsrooms were what caused a burst in ideas that propelled the evolution.

""Monumental adaptive changes occur from monumental environmental changes like dealing with 300m thick ice sheets enveloping and retracting across half the planet. ""

yeah i know.

Also regarding aborigines, as far as I know, there is no evidence that psilocybe species were even in australia before european settlement. Certainly cubes and pans came with cattle but I have not seen any evidence that psilocybe subaeruginosa has been present in australia for any great length of time. They are similar to PNW american species and it could well have come out with early forestry or gold mining activities (just a theory!) because there was knowledge, equipment and botanical exchange happening between california in particular and australia regarding those activities. That is the book you should write: 'The origin of psilocybe species in australia'.

 

thanks for that, thats helpful to hear. The knowledge of them must have came from africa n probbaly forgotten n discountinued when migrated to australia.

[fraser miller]

Also, if you want to write persuasively, you need to learn as much as you can about opposing theories and spend a considerable amount time in your book rebutting/debunking these theories.

 

I'm well aware fo this but cheers for the reminder/support/help

[fraser miller]

Ive read nearly all of Terence's work. So I dont get your point.

""And you can hardly argue that the writing of a sequel to Food of the Gods is purely an intellectual exercise when there is very little about the argument that is intellectual. The evidence is questionable at best - based usually on modern interpretations of a few random etchings, defies basic rules of evolutionary theory and the biology of specification and common sense. ""

I never said it was a purely intellectual exercise and completely disagree with littel beign intellectual, its a highly intellectual to prove it because barly anyone in the world knwos about it and its hard to explain to peopel because people miss what you are saying, so it takes alot of hard work n intellect.

""Its like explaining stealth technology as being back engineered UFO technology - the most ridiculous and least plausible possibility becomes the one that is most appealling.""

This is not true. Look at darwin everyone doubted him and no1 wanted to belive we came from apes. Same with the world beign round n flat if we really want to get anywhere we need to look at the rediculous and the weird shit, because thats were alot of hidden truths lie.

""Human abstract thought developed to provide homo sapien sapiens with an advantage. Its by products are religion, art and creativity.""

Exactly n that was boosted by the psilocybin, magic mushrooms founded religion. enchance art and creativity in the individual.

""And as for indigenous Australian consuming magic mushrooms, Psilocybe cubensis and Panaeolus cyanescens arrived in Australia with cattle. Psilocybe subaeruginosa is also so closely matched with Psilocybe cyanescens that is unlikely it originated from Australia either.""

 

thanks, the knowledge msut have travelled from africa the shrooms not. This makes perfect sense because wen they travelled over seas they would not have been abel to preserve the musrhoosm therefore the cultures creation myths were based on mushroom use but the use was discontiued.

[fraser miller]

""Mate, you've come on to the forums asking for advice/feedback on your idea of writing a book, people have offered it to you and you've been very selective in what you've chosen to take on board.""

I've taken it all onboard.

""I want to say that I admire your enthusiasm... you're obviously very passionate about this topic, but I honestly think you're not ready to write a book about this. You say you're nineteen? You were two years old when I first became interested in entheogens and I've been researching myself since then so I take your comment ""

cheers

""to be dismissive. I am positive that what I've learned in 17 years is at least equal to the knowledge you've gained from the internet over the last twelve months. I stand by what I said: to the best of my knowledge, DMT existing in humans and every living thing is a hypothesis that has not been scientifically proven. I think that before you could write a book that would be taken seriously (which is what you said in your first post to be your goal) by even the entheogen community, let alone the community at large, you really need to do a lot more research, not only into those articles that back up your ideas but also those that oppose them. ""

This internet is an extremly pwoerful tool it is extremely easier to gain links n knowledge about the world about now and my generation was born n grew up with it, so we r quick on the mark with it, so at a younger age more knowledge can be gained, u can learn alot more from teh internet than any university or shcool thats for sure. Although learnign from a real person is real important and group/social is very important and learn more at school.

""Yes, you will find information about DMT existing naturally in every living thing, mostly from a lot of second, third, fourth hand sources, all basing their info on the suggestion from Strassman. If you delve into the depths of Google, you'll also find claims that humankind has only been around for 1000 years and that all history from before that time actually took place in the Renaissance Period. You'll find claims that George Bush is a reptilian alien. Both those theories have a lot of followers/believers but it doesn't make them necessarily true.""

yeah theres um crazy shit round. But in all seriosuness the evidence is out there n people have proven it i ceebs tryign to find it tho i remmeber reading and terence saying that some tested 1000s of plants and animals and they all tested positive for containing dmt.

I like your thinking, but if you want to be taken seriously, you need to accept that most accepted theories have years and years of research and first hand evidence/experience to back them up. Without these things, you may have a difficult time finding a publisher willing to take on your work.

I love the Jesus was an Amanita theory, but it is very far from proven. I think there was even a thread on here recently about who/what Jesus was. There were about fifteen different theories put forward, all as unprovable as the next. Your claim that this is proven fact just indicates again that you really need to do a hell of a lot more research and exploration, otherwise your book is going to make you look like a brainwashed amateur.

I gave you an example: logistical in place of logical.

Belief is a double edged sword. Can give you something to feel right about and can also blind you from alternate truths. Having 100% conviction in the stoned ape theory is as unhealthy (in my opinion) as having 100% conviction in the bible being an accurate history of mankind.

I'm not trying to discourage you from writing your book. I think it's a great idea. I just think you need to do a lot more research and exploration before you will be ready to write from an authoritative point of view.

Best of luck.

 

[HeroicDose]

There is ample evidence of psychedelics improving creativity and abstract thinking, but necessarily so much evidence that it was the catalyst for this change to begin with. This is hear-say but apparently shamans can become animalistic (thinking like the animal - advantage in hunting), is this due to psilocybin or DMT? Maybe (but DMT is not part of the argument). Is it due to some kind of schizophrenia? Maybe. If you can prove that art did not exist before mushroom use then you would be on to something, but that is likely to be impossible. I think BlueGreenie saying that creativity and abstract thinking came as a result of evolution could be true, but who's to say that the mushroom users didn't have an advantage, and only those lived on?

To the writer of the book - I hope you don't plan to have this book out anytime soon, because improving on Mckenna's ideas is going to take decades of research. Real research, not wishful thinking. Imagine writing a book that took you 10+ years to write, only to have someone who believes in Mckenna's theory to prove your whole book wrong in a short essay reply? It would be pretty humiliating right? Do if you plan to do this then bravo! I look forward to reading your book in 2045

[Amazonian]

Don't be disheartened fraser miller. Listen to what people have to say, and then strive for what you really want to do. Life is full of setbacks and what can be constructive criticism. Soldier on!

Edited January 24, 2011 by Amazonian

[botanika]

thanks for that, thats helpful to hear. The knowledge of them must have came from africa n probbaly forgotten n discountinued when migrated to australia.

 

You have to prove 1) that there was indeed a significant and measurable burst in human innovation 2) that mushrooms were directly responsible and to what measurable degree and 3) it would also be worthwhile to disprove all other possible explanations to support your argument. Dismiss genetic evidence all you like but it holds a lot of weight. What irrefutable evidence do you uniquely have that you can bring to the table?

Additionally another question to ask, from the other side of the fence, is what influence did we as humans (or more broadly animals in general) play in the evolution of psilocybe mushrooms? Why do some species of mushroom (and plants and animals for that matter) contain hallucinogens? How long have these mushrooms used psychotropic compounds to repel or attract animals? Evolution is not a one way street and we're not the only animal that has consumed this fungi.

What McKenna wrote was truly poetic and thought provoking (particularly to someone young and impressionable who's recently tried pyschedelics) but it's not science. And be honest with yourself - are you as well read as McKenna and do you think you can match his storytelling calibre? If you think we're being critical wait until you start dealing with professional publishers!

Edited January 25, 2011 by botanika

[Distracted]

Here's a reference i've directly dug up from The Spirit Molecule.

For an excellent review summarizing the endogenous DMT data, see Steven A. Barker, John A. Monti, and Samuel T. Christian, "N,N-Dimethyltryptamine: An Endogenous Hallucinogen," International Review of Neurobiology 22 (1981): 83-110

The reason why I suggested to look at the pineal gland is because DMT is accepted from the pineal gland through the blood brain barrier as easily as the sugars that the brain needs to survive are. Our brain classifies DMT to be just as important as food.

Aldous Huxley wrote about how mescaline prevents the brain from metabolising sugars which in turn prevent our 'external stimulus' filter from working properly and thus we can perceive the world in the 'present' the 'right now' instead of our normal understanding which is slowly passing through time. He states that cultures would attain similar states of mind through the use of dehydration and malnutrition as well as physical exaustion. Some examples of these are how food sources were very seasonal before the conception of agriculture and as good nutrious food became scarce halfway through the year people would become more delirious. Or trance dancing for hours and hours on end to the point of physical collapse etc.

Here are some other reference that look like they could be of use to you.

For reviews of historical data regarding naturally occuring psychedelics' importance, see Marlene Dobkin de Rios, Hallucinogens: Cross-Cultural Perspectives (Albuquerque, NM: University of New Mexico Press, 1984); and Peter Furst, Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Hallucinogens (New York: Waveland, 1990).

[HeroicDose]

The way our brain eats up and deals with DMT is certainly very supportive of the idea of endogenous DMT.

[fraser miller]

There is ample evidence of psychedelics improving creativity and abstract thinking, but necessarily so much evidence that it was the catalyst for this change to begin with. This is hear-say but apparently shamans can become animalistic (thinking like the animal - advantage in hunting), is this due to psilocybin or DMT? Maybe (but DMT is not part of the argument). Is it due to some kind of schizophrenia? Maybe. If you can prove that art did not exist before mushroom use then you would be on to something, but that is likely to be impossible. I think BlueGreenie saying that creativity and abstract thinking came as a result of evolution could be true, but who's to say that the mushroom users didn't have an advantage, and only those lived on?

To the writer of the book - I hope you don't plan to have this book out anytime soon, because improving on Mckenna's ideas is going to take decades of research. Real research, not wishful thinking. Imagine writing a book that took you 10+ years to write, only to have someone who believes in Mckenna's theory to prove your whole book wrong in a short essay reply? It would be pretty humiliating right? Do if you plan to do this then bravo! I look forward to reading your book in 2045

 

Yes that is true, it may not appear that there is not much evidence out there but there is, it is hidden behind a vale, its right in front of our eyes hidden in plain sight. Terrence Mckenna used to say that when he was a kid he would look at stones a where them down and find crytals inside them and from that spawned a belief for his whoel life that theres also somethign hidden beneath the surface. I have taken that aboard and intially i was liek you i didn't think there was much evidence at all but i searched hard and far across the web and stumbled across quite some deiscoveries that i have yet to reveal and overtime the amoutn of evuidence has grown. Most of the evidence is found in disillusionment, in place u would least expect, where the rational mind dosn't generally wander an Egxample woudl be alien conspiracys that we were founded from aliens, well being millions of freaks obsessed with aliens across the world, I have myself a wide reaserch team, workign for me undercover because the evidence the dig up for their wacked up theories that we mutated with an alien species 1000s of years ago is actaully evidence for humans evolving from magic mushrooms they are just eluded to think that it must be aliens because it is hard for there imaginations to think that it coudl be mushrooms and that mushrooms are actaully this alien species, this beign because it is not a widely known/talked about topic so mushrooms the forgotten truth is the last thing that came to there mind and forgive me for saying truth i am not dictating anything but to ME its the truth from the evidence I've seen and others havn't i'm only trying to portray that thats the way i feel.

Now about the shamans who have animalistic powers, there are many religions across the world which pratice this through the use of differnt types of pyschedelics. So its a range and yes some shamans use DMT and psilocybin to get to these places. Can remember the names of the top of my head but if you search u'll find them. This is goign to be talked abotu in my book aswell.

Also with in regard to it being scitzophrenic I think u'll find this video really interesting.

 

Also the almost impossible has been made possible. I have proven to myself that art didn’t exist before mushroom use. I have these photos of the oldest aboriginal Australian art and have linked them with proof of mushroom use before they arrived over 60,000 years ago, Australia having the oldest art in the world.

Also with the whole time thing i really think ur'v overlooked a few steps which make it take alot less time, then exagerrated. To my mind ur'v really given a closed veiw of how long it would take, sure the book will take a logn time but there are several factors which change the amount of time it takes to write it.

I'll explain.

1.)Terrence mckenna had to come up with the theorey, i don't have to I have have his theorey and ideas as a skeleton so its alot easier to work with than going from scratch like he did.

2.) Also at the time terrence didn't have the interenet when he wrote food of the gods so it took alot longer to find information, with the speed of the internet we can compress many years of research into an alot shorter time. He would have had to talk to people all over the world and look dust cobwebs in the librarys to seek out certain books. For me this process is extremly easier. All i have to do is use google the most powerful engine for searchign information and i'm a google junkie, i spend many hours a day looking for information and have alot of sleepless nights using this high speed information process. i can look up whatever i want, i can also pretty much downlaod whatever book i want in a matter of a few minutes. There is also alot more inforamtion round nowerdays that was hard n unavialiable to get. Alot of the information that people discovered would be in peoples cuboard unannouced to the world, now with the internet this information has been shared easily through websites ect.

Also alot of the information is stored in peoples minds and with passed word of mouth but now you don't have to know that person because we have youtube i don't need 2 spend a coupel of thousand dollars to travel n hopefully bump into someone with sacred lost information its right here on youtube just a searched away.

You're probs itching for an exampel so i'll give u one this might shock u.

This guy credo mutwa, is the highest shaman in africa, he holds secret knowledge that was destroyed by the invaders and passed down to the highest shamans, this Africa has underground secret societys that keep this original secret knowledge passed down from the... first humans. Barly anyone knows about these secret societys and there knowledge and stories isn't known to the western world.

It is commonly known Africa is actually where humans orignated from.

Now check this is the crazy shit.

 

He holds the necklace of mysteries which is very old and passed down and said to show the true story of how we were created. What i realised is on the necklace of mysteries there is a mushroom cap (the part which is traditionaly easten) and... he talks about the first humans mating with an alien species that gave them language and made them into gods aka humans, my discovery is that this alien species he talks about is actually the magic muhsroom, it is shown in the necklace and through his stories he tells i can tell the meaning of the story is of that.

His knowledge was passed down from word of mouth since probably 100,000 years ago and had to survive africa being invaded and there knowledge destroyed so its done pretty well to survive as much as it has, but the important part has been lo...st,but africa and the human race can thank me because i've recovered it. he thinks the discs shaped objects described in the story as u'll see/hear are spaceships, when they're actually shrooms lol. So this is a pretty big link also i found that most of the tribes n cultures in africa their mask are shaped as the magic mushroom. so BINGO! lol

So thats an example of one of the peices of evidence I found on youtube.

heres a picture of the necklace of mysteries

http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Credo_Mutwa_Necklace_of_the_Mysteries_lg.jpg

3.) Also i've mathematically worked out aprox how long its gonna take, you can never tell really but i"m pretty sure it'll be done in about year or just slightly over just in time for 2012 lining up with the high surge of novelty prodicted by the mesoamerican mushroom tribes such as the maya.]

So look forward to reading my book in 2012 proving the biggest secret in the world just in time for the mayan prediction of the return of the god Quetzalcoatl who I have indentified in my studies as the mushroom, my friend whose helping me whose dad is a famous for discovering magic mushroom art in Mesoamerican civilisation pretty much for the first time since the 16th century and who worked with Gordan Wasson on mayan archaeology and was best friends with him.

Edited January 26, 2011 by fraser miller

[fraser miller]

There is ample evidence of psychedelics improving creativity and abstract thinking, but necessarily so much evidence that it was the catalyst for this change to begin with. This is hear-say but apparently shamans can become animalistic (thinking like the animal - advantage in hunting), is this due to psilocybin or DMT? Maybe (but DMT is not part of the argument). Is it due to some kind of schizophrenia? Maybe. If you can prove that art did not exist before mushroom use then you would be on to something, but that is likely to be impossible. I think BlueGreenie saying that creativity and abstract thinking came as a result of evolution could be true, but who's to say that the mushroom users didn't have an advantage, and only those lived on?

To the writer of the book - I hope you don't plan to have this book out anytime soon, because improving on Mckenna's ideas is going to take decades of research. Real research, not wishful thinking. Imagine writing a book that took you 10+ years to write, only to have someone who believes in Mckenna's theory to prove your whole book wrong in a short essay reply? It would be pretty humiliating right? Do if you plan to do this then bravo! I look forward to reading your book in 2045

 

Yes that is true, it may not appear that there is not much evidence out there but there is, it is hidden behind a vale, its right in front of our eyes hidden in plain sight. Terrence Mckenna used to say that when he was a kid he would look at stones a where them down and find crytals inside them and from that spawned a belief for his whoel life that theres also somethign hidden beneath the surface. I have taken that aboard and intially i was liek you i didn't think there was much evidence at all but i searched hard and far across the web and stumbled across quite some deiscoveries that i have yet to reveal and overtime the amoutn of evuidence has grown. Most of the evidence is found in disillusionment, in place u would least expect, where the rational mind dosn't generally wander an Egxample woudl be alien conspiracys that we were founded from aliens, well being millions of freaks obsessed with aliens across the world, I have myself a wide reaserch team, workign for me undercover because the evidence the dig up for their wacked up theories that we mutated with an alien species 1000s of years ago is actaully evidence for humans evolving from magic mushrooms they are just eluded to think that it must be aliens because it is hard for there imaginations to think that it coudl be mushrooms and that mushrooms are actaully this alien species, this beign because it is not a widely known/talked about topic so mushrooms the forgotten truth is the last thing that came to there mind and forgive me for saying truth i am not dictating anything but to ME its the truth from the evidence I've seen and others havn't i'm only trying to portray that thats the way i feel.

Now about the shamans who have animalistic powers, there are many religions across the world which pratice this through the use of differnt types of pyschedelics. So its a range and yes some shamans use DMT and psilocybin to get to these places. Can remember the names of the top of my head but if you search u'll find them. This is goign to be talked abotu in my book aswell.

Also with in regard to it being scitzophrenic I think u'll find this video really interesting.

 

Also the almost impossible has been made possible. I have proven to myself that art didn’t exist before mushroom use. I have these photos of the oldest aboriginal Australian art and have linked them with proof of mushroom use before they arrived over 60,000 years ago, Australia having the oldest art in the world.

Also with the whole time thing i really think ur'v overlooked a few steps which make it take alot less time, then exagerrated. To my mind ur'v really given a closed veiw of how long it would take, sure the book will take a logn time but there are several factors which change the amount of time it takes to write it.

I'll explain.

1.)Terrence mckenna had to come up with the theorey, i don't have to I have have his theorey and ideas as a skeleton so its alot easier to work with than going from scratch like he did.

2.) Also at the time terrence didn't have the interenet when he wrote food of the gods so it took alot longer to find information, with the speed of the internet we can compress many years of research into an alot shorter time. He would have had to talk to people all over the world and look dust cobwebs in the librarys to seek out certain books. For me this process is extremly easier. All i have to do is use google the most powerful engine for searchign information and i'm a google junkie, i spend many hours a day looking for information and have alot of sleepless nights using this high speed information process. i can look up whatever i want, i can also pretty much downlaod whatever book i want in a matter of a few minutes. There is also alot more inforamtion round nowerdays that was hard n unavialiable to get. Alot of the information that people discovered would be in peoples cuboard unannouced to the world, now with the internet this information has been shared easily through websites ect.

Also alot of the information is stored in peoples minds and with passed word of mouth but now you don't have to know that person because we have youtube i don't need 2 spend a coupel of thousand dollars to travel n hopefully bump into someone with sacred lost information its right here on youtube just a searched away.

You're probs itching for an exampel so i'll give u one this might shock u.

This guy credo mutwa, is the highest shaman in africa, he holds secret knowledge that was destroyed by the invaders and passed down to the highest shamans, this Africa has underground secret societys that keep this original secret knowledge passed down from the... first humans. Barly anyone knows about these secret societys and there knowledge and stories isn't known to the western world.

It is commonly known Africa is actually where humans orignated from.

Now check this is the crazy shit.

 

He holds the necklace of mysteries which is very old and passed down and said to show the true story of how we were created. What i realised is on the necklace of mysteries there is a mushroom cap (the part which is traditionaly easten) and... he talks about the first humans mating with an alien species that gave them language and made them into gods aka humans, my discovery is that this alien species he talks about is actually the magic muhsroom, it is shown in the necklace and through his stories he tells i can tell the meaning of the story is of that.

His knowledge was passed down from word of mouth since probably 100,000 years ago and had to survive africa being invaded and there knowledge destroyed so its done pretty well to survive as much as it has, but the important part has been lo...st,but africa and the human race can thank me because i've recovered it. he thinks the discs shaped objects described in the story as u'll see/hear are spaceships, when they're actually shrooms lol. So this is a pretty big link also i found that most of the tribes n cultures in africa their mask are shaped as the magic mushroom. so BINGO! lol

So thats an example of one of the peices of evidence I found on youtube.

heres a picture of the necklace of mysteries

http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Credo_Mutwa_Necklace_of_the_Mysteries_lg.jpg

3.) Also i've mathematically worked out aprox how long its gonna take, you can never tell really but i"m pretty sure it'll be done in about year or just slightly over just in time for 2012 lining up with the high surge of novelty prodicted by the mesoamerican mushroom tribes such as the maya.]

So look forward to reading my book in 2012 proving the biggest secret in the world just in time for the mayan prediction of the return of the god Quetzalcoatl who I have indentified in my studies as the mushroom, my friend whose helping me whose dad is a famous for discovering magic mushroom art in Mesoamerican civilisation pretty much for the first time since the 16th century and who worked with Gordan Wasson on mayan archaeology and was best friends with him.

[fraser miller]

sorry abotu the double post lol my computer lagged

[Zen Peddler]

Also i've mathematically worked out aprox how long its gonna take, you can never tell really but i"m pretty sure it'll be done in about year or just slightly over just in time for 2012 lining up with the high surge of novelty prodicted by the mesoamerican mushroom tribes such as the maya.]

So look forward to reading my book in 2012 proving the biggest secret in the world just in time for the mayan prediction of the return of the god Quetzalcoatl who I have indentified in my studies as the mushroom, my friend whose helping me whose dad is a famous for discovering magic mushroom art in Mesoamerican civilisation pretty much for the first time since the 16th century and who worked with Gordan Wasson on mayan archaeology and was best friends with him.

Actually Im pretty sure Wasson spent most of his time with the Zapotecs who have a culture vastly different from that of the Maya. The mushrooms he look for and those that were first found by Wasson were in the Oaxaca highlands at a little village called Huautla de Jiminez and San Jose del Pacifico. Unlike the maya, there is little or no evidence that the Zapotecs (who we know used magic mushrooms for divining) were involved in human sacrifice or were involved in warfare. The wheel of time ends with the date in 2012 is mayan, not zapotec.

The Maya werent really in Oaxaca, they were down in the jungles of the Chiapis, yucutan, Belize, Guatemala and Hondurus. They were around at a different time, and while its suggested and is likely that they were involved in mushroom use, their culture was signficantly war like, they regularly indulged in human sacrifice (Chichen itza was almost a human sacrifice factory and Tonina city state was obsessed with conquering, warfare and blood letting. Sacrifice was a way of life in some Mayan city states. Their culture was quite complex - it wasnt just a mushroom cult.

Quetzalcoatl was definately not the mushrooms nor did he or it ever have any connection with mushrooms. The aztecs probably took his cult the most seriously in some ways - and there are some amazing temple ruins made by the aztecs in places like Tepoztlan and so forth. Again Aztecs and Toltecs enjoyed warfare, conquering and human sacrifice.

Some cities like what is called in Spanish 'Palenque' had temples that they believed were mushroom based. But they were conquered by Tonina and their head honcho was decapitated ritually once he was captured.

When you go to ruins like those in Tikal, Guatemala you realise that these guys were amazing. Tikal was one of the two biggest cities.

Another misconception is that the Mayan civilisation disappeared. city states like Lamanai were very much Mayan and were still populated at the time the Spaniards arrived.

Anyway - in summary, the zapotecs, rather than the maya were heavily involved in magic mushroom usage. The mayan may have indulged in mushroom use, but they were more concerned with resources, bickering between city states, and star gazing. They certainly never predicted the increase of novelty in 2012. Infact they predictd very little about 2012, only that their astrological time wheel finishes at a time we have predicted is 2012. Quetzalcoatl has a detailed and interesting history that changes from the mayan through to the toltecs and the aztecs and is usually connected with feathers rather than spores LOL.

Mushrooms in mesoamerica were prettymuch considered as one of many tools used to predict the future more or less.

Gordon Wasson was not an archaeologist.

Good luck in your search of the transcendental object. But you wont find it believing second hand information relayed to you by hippies LOL. Im slightly suspicious that you may have indulged maybe a little too much my friend...

Good on you I guess for believing. It sounds like your pretty convinced.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Zen Peddler BlueGreenie