why?

[santiago]

its all down to typical VICTIM/AGGRESSOR mentality..........there is a kind of person regardless of sex who always feels as if they are the victim. the world is out to get them, its everybody'elses fault, if only i got a lucky break, i didnt do anything he/she just bashed me up for no reason...................sometimes the so called victim actually needs more help than the aggressor...because the victim generally has a whole lifetime of cranial mess to sort through whilst the aggressor is more likely to act out due to impulse and provocation.

[Gunter]

Luckily for both of us, my girlfriend had enough faith in me to give me the chance to show her that I'm not really like that,

If you were not like that then you didn't change, you just worked on your behavior, you didn't become someone else.

That abusive men are no better than rapists etc. But then when you hear of a woman abusing a man, all of a sudden the "relationship is flawed". Perhaps you would have the same view if I was a woman in exactly the same situation, but from reading your posts here I suspect not.

 

A lot of words have been put into my mouth in this thread. Abusive relationship are flawed relationships, i believe that. A man who beats a woman is no better than a rapist in my book, that is also true.

I've seen a lot of abusive relationships that went both ways, I know two guys who were hospitalized by their girlfriends hitting them on the head with objects. I don't think that is good, it is flawed to be sure. Should the guys have left those girls before it happened? I think so. Are the girls like rapists in my book? no because never in those cases did they actually beat, as in keep hitting the guy. But yeah is some cases the situation is the same and the genders are reversed, it doesn't make it right.

.there is a kind of person regardless of sex who always feels as if they are the victim. the world is out to get them, its everybody'elses fault, if only i got a lucky break, i didnt do anything he/she just bashed me up for no reason...................sometimes the so called victim actually needs more help than the aggressor...because the victim generally has a whole lifetime of cranial mess to sort through whilst the aggressor is more likely to act out due to impulse and provocation.

I totally agree with the above.

[Gunter]

A bad sign is a difficulty. Difficulties can be overcome. You can give up at the first sign of adversity if you want, but while you're at it why don't you stick the noose around your neck? You don't get anywhere without trying to solve your problems.

 

I would rather not take a bad start, a bad relationship and try to work on it and make something good out of it. I would rather start good, having it stay good and end good. We all have problems man, no exceptions, but what you are calling problems, abusive relationships where people are attacked and beaten goes way past problem in my mind.

Trying to take something so broken and non-functional and make it work seems unwise to me.

I don't expect all of you to agree, clearly some of you think it a man or a woman is harming another one that is only challenge to be overcome and the relationship is still ok, well I am comfortable not sharing that view. I view it as a sign that the relationship is flawed and unhealthy. It seems better to me to pursue no relationship at all rather than try to make an unhealthy one into a healthy one, but then i don't share the mentality so prevalent here.

[ballzac]

A lot of words have been put into my mouth in this thread. Abusive relationship are flawed relationships, i believe that. A man who beats a woman is no better than a rapist in my book, that is also true.

I've seen a lot of abusive relationships that went both ways, I know two guys who were hospitalized by their girlfriends hitting them on the head with objects. I don't think that is good, it is flawed to be sure. Should the guys have left those girls before it happened? I think so. Are the girls like rapists in my book? no because never in those cases did they actually beat, as in keep hitting the guy. But yeah is some cases the situation is the same and the genders are reversed, it doesn't make it right.

 

I apologise if I misinterpreted your position on this

[Gunter]

I apologise if I misinterpreted your position on this

 

No problem. i love your contribution to this thread actually.

I am biased and i am intellectually aggressive and I am strongly opinionated.

It is my opinion that if you/they keep kitting him/her after she loses consciousness then the relationship isn't one that should be worked on, it should be abandoned. Maybe me being an asshole has to do with why i think that.

[C_T]

this thread is somewhat destructive...

[ballzac]

...if you/they keep kitting him/her after she loses consciousness...

 

You missed a "he"

[ballzac]

this thread is somewhat destructive...

 

It started in "bitches and gripes" and went downhill from there

[synchromesh]

I would rather not take a bad start, a bad relationship and try to work on it and make something good out of it. I would rather start good, having it stay good and end good.

Find me a couple who've never had problems, and I'll give you a piece of turkey...

Trying to take something so broken and non-functional and make it work seems unwise to me.

I don't expect all of you to agree, clearly some of you think it a man or a woman is harming another one that is only challenge to be overcome and the relationship is still ok, well I am comfortable not sharing that view. I view it as a sign that the relationship is flawed and unhealthy. It seems better to me to pursue no relationship at all rather than try to make an unhealthy one into a healthy one, but then i don't share the mentality so prevalent here.

Why is it so hard to believe that a good relationship can turn bad? We are just "wild, unpredictable animals" after all...

It is my opinion that if you/they keep kitting him/her after she loses consciousness then the relationship isn't one that should be worked on, it should be abandoned.

I knew it... you're a woman.

[mutant]

Cool debate.

What Archaea might be missing is that abuse can be non-violent too, and that some people really cannot have a healthy relationship [cause they're having issues themselves], or that it's hard or left to chance to find a healthy one.

I have to otherwise agree with the repulsion to violence, especially beating a physically weaker defensive person

I am a very non-violent guy and I simply cannot understand violence too good. I had actually written a song back in 1998, on how alien violence felt to me.

On non-violent abuse

I have a female friend, know her for ages, she is in an abusive relationship, only not violent. And they're getting married! But she is constantly degraded, this dude is of conservative ideas too. Anyways, I firmly believe she won't be happy with this guy, they won't have much of a healthy relationship. Then again, I came to conclude many years now that my friend likes to be abused, verbally that is. And my friend seems happy with this very difficult character.

I don't know what happens in their bed, but in my eyes these relationships are both fucked-up and natural.

I do think women spirit could change the world, but I also think that humans is a fucked up species that grew too much of a brain to handle. I don't hate bad men more than bad women, but people have to recognise that women have been through a lot and justice and equality just hasn't totally shined yet.

This having been said, I think the world is lacking and needing the original female spirituality, and also that modern world feminity is strongly co-shaped by men's capitalist world.

[Gunter]

What Archaea might be missing is that abuse can be non-violent too, and that some people really cannot have a healthy relationship [cause they're having issues themselves], or that it's hard or left to chance to find a healthy one.

What i am addressing in the thread i started is abusive relationships that masquerade as healthy ones, in particular involving violent abuse.

I know that there are those here who don't want to do anything but pick on my opinion, for it being different, without offering any insight of their own, they are pathetic to me and I don't really care what they think or say. That being said there are those who do have a different opinion and actually participate and share in a really cool way, they are not pathetic to me and I do care what they think and say.

I have a female friend, know her for ages, she is in an abusive relationship, only not violent. And they're getting married! But she is constantly degraded, this dude is of conservative ideas too. Anyways, I firmly believe she won't be happy with this guy, they won't have much of a healthy relationship. Then again, I came to conclude many years now that my friend likes to be abused, verbally that is. And my friend seems happy with this very difficult character.

 

I understand how complex that can be, it doesn't seem healthy to me.

n the context of what I had addressed in this thread I think that their relationship is off to a very bad start. If you had less insight it could even appear that they have a good healthy relationship, when they might not. That is what I am specifically addressing here, the mask that people wear, be it abusers or victims, which prevents them from being happy even as they pretend to be happy for observers.

I think the world is lacking and needing the original female spirituality, and also that modern world feminity is strongly co-shaped by men's capitalist world.

 

I agree strongly and am a bit shocked how often the experience and opinion of a woman is disregarded and often not even sought, while the experience and opinion of a man is often taken as fact by people who only have false impressions because of the deception I addressed earlier.

If all you have to add to this thread is that you think it is destructive that shows how much of a contribution you are able to make, thanks a lot for that, I am really proud of people like you who enter threads like that.

[Gunter]

if a good relationship turns bad it is no longer good and it is probably a good idea to abandon it,

good relationships can turn bad, but rarely seem to

and bad relationships can turn good, again rarely

[C_T]

um arch i was the one positising your posts and negatising some of the crazy/misguided ones

its not your comments that made this thread destructive. i can totally relate to the opening post.

[C_T]

lets be honest here, every relationship starts good. some last good, some their true colours start to show.

what you decide to do, once youve seen their true colours is upto you and only you.

[Magicdirt]

I agree strongly and am a bit shocked how often the experience and opinion of a woman is disregarded and often not even sought, while the experience and opinion of a man is often taken as fact by people who only have false impressions because of the deception I addressed earlier.

 

Could be partly due to the fact that abusive types of men usually surround themselves with equally gutless or even more gutless pricks who don't have the moral fibre to stand up to them and tell them what they are doing is wrong. Their friends just seem to overlook that sort of character flaw somehow.

Abusive men are generally like chameleons in many ways too, they are all charm and seem like "a top bloke" in everyday life but when they get home they turn into someone else.

I've seen enough relationships like that to be able to tell (most times) within minutes if the relationship is strained. Like I said in another post there is always clues that abuse is lurking behind the façade they put up,most of it unspoken but body language is a dead give-away .

How they speak to each other on the phone gives many clues too, as people tend to use the same body language and vocal inflections as they would face to face and they tend to forget that other people can see them airing their dirty laundry. I've suspected several abusive relationships from phone conversations alone and been correct every time.

[rahli]

Yeah I've threatened two acquaintances in the past with violence if they didn't back off their missus. They act all tough at first but then realise that they may be in for a hiding in front of their missus and quickly giving in because the know in their heart that they are in the wrong. Either that or don't want to risk a beating in front of Their missus. I have now moved away from my Hometown so I'm no longer faced with such bullshit.

[synchromesh]

This having been said, I think the world is lacking and needing the original female spirituality, and also that modern world feminity is strongly co-shaped by men's capitalist world.

It is frigging sickening. It's like the Capitalist system continuously attacks the mind of the "Goddess", while the Church continuously attacks the soul...

I know that there are those here who don't want to do anything but pick on my opinion, for it being different, without offering any insight of their own, they are pathetic to me and I don't really care what they think or say. That being said there are those who do have a different opinion and actually participate and share in a really cool way, they are not pathetic to me and I do care what they think and say.

You just don't know how to handle criticism is all. That and you're very judgmental.

In the context of what I had addressed in this thread I think that their relationship is off to a very bad start. If you had less insight it could even appear that they have a good healthy relationship, when they might not. That is what I am specifically addressing here, the mask that people wear, be it abusers or victims, which prevents them from being happy even as they pretend to be happy for observers.

But you act like none of us already knew about these things... Anyway, now what? What solutions can we all come up with? Or would you prefer to just keep venting?

[incognito]

i dont think you can blame the victim. that sucks.there are alot of factors as to why someone wont leave a bad relationship. It would be/is extremely hard.

Concerns of what family friennds and commnity will think of you and say about u should u leave the relationship, concerns abut seperating the family, low self esteem, lack of financial stability through relying on partners income, or whatever they will give you (another form of abuse in some cases), not knowing what services are out there to help, and a myriad of other factors contribute.

often partners have been groomed and the folliwng honeymoon period where the abusing partner

lavishes the abusee with affection and gifts and promises of it never happening again is another reason people stay.

People who beat people up, mentally abuse them etc for no good reason are fucked full stop.

Protecting oneself and ones family are an exception for me.

[synchromesh]

i dont think you can blame the victim. that sucks.there are alot of factors as to why someone wont leave a bad relationship. It would be/is extremely hard.

Concerns of what family friennds and commnity will think of you and say about u should u leave the relationship, concerns abut seperating the family, low self esteem, lack of financial stability through relying on partners income, or whatever they will give you (another form of abuse in some cases), not knowing what services are out there to help, and a myriad of other factors contribute.

 

That's one of the main ones I reckon. It seems that nobody wants to be alone, no matter what.

[incognito]

i think its for a myriad of reasons.

love has to fit in there as well.

one things for sure, blaming the victims of DV is pretty fucked up.

[synchromesh]

Yeah, it's never one thing.

[Magicdirt]

Substance abuse plays a role in a lot of DV cases too, especially in some of the lower socio economic groups.

A lot of the time the abuse doesn't start until the money runs out and the realisation that the next fix won't be coming anytime soon.

Alcohol problems are a bit different as the violence seems to happen when the money comes, with drug problems the violence seems to come when the money has gone.

We can tell when the drunks next door have been paid by the arguments & fights and many times ambulance and or police cars.

We can also tell when the junkies money has run out by the fights and arguments and the general angry demeanour.

[synchromesh]

Another thing to consider is that men don't feel as important as they used to. Whereas back in the day the man was essentially the provider, today there's probably just as much women in the role.

[ThunderIdeal]

so back in the day, because they felt important, men were only ever loving towards their partners and families? my guess is that men used to get away with more abusive behaviour towards women and children.

[synchromesh]

I'm just saying that hopelessness can lead to violence is all. And regarding your statement, I answer it with a single word: Filicide*... Back then it wasn't even heard of, but now it's like an epidemic.

* Filicide is the deliberate act of a parent killing their own son or daughter.