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Magicseven

Psychotria viridis

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i notice the shaman shop sells two plants of the psychotria genus (alba and carthaginensis). however the tab below advertises viridis, but when you click on it only the two mentioned before pop up. the plant i was interested in obtaining was viridis so im just wondering if it is the same thing as alba or if its just an error.

Edited by Magicseven

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do you know if theres a big difference between alba and viridis? i cnat find much info on them although i know viridis grows quite slowly

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Don't know much about alba, but viridis is quite difficult to grow without a consistent warm and humid environment.

It has been shown by people in this forum that it probably won't survive in a climate like yours.

When winter approaches, even around brisbane, those growing it can have difficultly keeping it happy.

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Alba seems to be similar to carthaginensis, I've read arguments for them being the same plant. Alba is a great one to grow in cool climates and is really hardy. A lot of people would probably tell you not to bother with alba or cartha, but if you have a decent amount of space and not so much experience growing tropical-climate plants outside their environment, it could be a good choice.

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I'm in Melbourne too and have alba and carth, both are good to grow here. I've had the most success with carths both when planting out and kept in pots, but alba seems to act a bit different and only do well if potted up with a good potting mix.

All the alba's I've planted out ended up fully dormant after winter passed, been a year now and no new growth. Ones in pots are going strong.

Worth noting the soil in my area of Melbourne is known to be some of the worst for growing non natives, the north to south east suburbs have a good soil base with minimal clay and better water retention so you may be more successful planting out either of them if located there.

Otherwise I'd keep them potted up, going by increasing the stages of pot size (not straight to a big pot, but something suitable for them to grow a bit larger and build a more complex root system, then transplant to a larger pot) and using a high quality potting mix.

Hope this helps :)

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What does carth have?

Typicaly stated as 1/3-1/4 strength of viridis.

But this paper finds no alkaloids but yet the extract still has activiy in rats:

"Absence of alkaloids in Psychotria carthagenensis Jacq. (Rubiaceae).

Psychotria viridis and P. carthagenensis are often discussed in relation to the hallucinogenic beverage Ayahuasca, used for religious, medicinal and social purposes. The significance of including Psychotria species in this beverage has been understood on the basis of substantial amounts of tryptamine alkaloids detected on leaves of both P. viridis and P. carthagenensis. Nevertheless, there is a long lasting debate over the identification of which Psychotria species are actually traditionally employed. We here report that a P. carthagenensis leaf ethanol extract was found to be devoid of alkaloids. The extract significantly decreased mice body temperature (350 and 500 mg/kg). Toxicity assessment revealed that the extract induced sedation and slight ptoses (75% of animals treated with 1000 mg/kg). Lethality was not observed within 48 h. The data indicate that P. carthagenensis does have bioactive compound(s), possibly active at the central nervous system, but unlikely to be tryptamine alkaloids as in the case of P. viridis. Therefore, if P. carthagenensis is indeed used by ayahuasqueros, its chemical and pharmacological significance have yet to be elucidated."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8941866&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

:unsure:

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'm in Melbourne too and have alba and carth

Could you please post close up pictures of the front & back sides of the leaves of both species as well as the leaf nodes?

Also pictures of their flowers & fruits?

It's been my understanding alba/carth were in fact the same plant with two different names.

I grow the alba/carth variety & viridis and as other people have noted, viridis is much more difficult to grow than the alba/carth plant.

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I'm in Sydney, and while it may not get as cold as melbourne, I'm able to grow Viridis and Carth. I should probably invest in some nexus, but tbh, I havent had problems so far. My viridis came from nimbin and its not that different a climate to where I am, so it must be able to do alright - and all of mine are booming right now. If you need to, just take them inside when winter comes and you'll be fine imo ;)

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@ TG83. is it possible to get a cutting of carth off you and ill see if i can grow it? probs worth a shot and im happy to pay for postage and your kindness :P

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zelly they are only a year old, got them from SAB mid last year so not much to show at the moment, they haven't flowered yet just grown slowly. The leaves do look pretty much identical to carth though, so could be the same plant. Maybe just from two different regions with varied climates giving them slightly different growth potential. Digicam is screwed but can try to get a decent shot of the leaves from my phone

Magicseven, never done a cutting of these before but could give it a go. I'm still fairly inexperienced with them and purchased all the plants from the SAB store. Someone here might be able to tell me whether its best to grow from a branch cutting or leaf?

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i found a site that describes how you can propagate via cuttings

http://www.plot55.com/growing/p.viridis.html

im a bit hesitant asking you to give me a cutting. wether or not it will grow isnt an issue, im game and i need the experience so if it dies i wont be to upset. but there are legal issues concerning alkaloid containing plants. from what ive read on the SAB store seeds are legal but actual plant material can be illegal. ill do some more research into it, it shouldnt be that much of an issue after all you can buy whole plants. but id rather be safe then sorry so ill do some more research into the legal spectrum and get back to you about it.

thanks for the offer, from what ive read on that site it can be achieved through just leaf cuttings but ill look into a bit more as well.

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Yeah that's why if it's possible for roots to strike via a standard cutting process (cut below nodes, not leaf alone) I'd be happy to get one ready for you n post it along once it's at the stage to be potted, done this kind of propagation many times before with a lot of plants but unsure if Carths will work this way.

Leaf cuttings I've never attempted before and seems like it may take a little practice to master

Guess the other option is get a couple from the SAB store and see how you go, would give you a good base to start from and they are more mature, stronger plants.

Well worth the $40 or so and now is the best time to purchase and plant / pot. I think most of my initial failures came from purchasing during the wrong season hence the plants dropped their leaves and became dormant. Although in saying that, I went out to try and get some photos yesterday and noticed the alba's were beginning to grow back nodes for the first time in over 12 months, so seems they may be coming back to life finally :)

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Rooting the leaf cuts of P alba / cartha is fairly standard and fairly easy, even for first timers.

From this thread at The Nook:

A friend here graciously sent me 4ea P alba leaves. Two of them I left in the ziplock bag with damp sphagnum moss they arrived in. Two I put into a pot of perlite. The pot went into a bowl with a bit of water in the bottom, the bowl into a vented rubbermaid box with damp perlite in the bottom and clear plexiglass on top. Both rubbermaid and ziplock stayed under fluoros, and I pretty much left them alone. That was a few months ago.

All the leaves have now rooted and are sending up little plants. The little plants are maybe 1/2" high with two to four leaves. I'm guessing now might be an apropos time to get these out of perlite and into a soil mix, correct?

After potting I was planning to keep them in the humid environment and slowly decrease the humidity over a week or so. Anything I'm missing/forgetting about?

 

I've had equal success in rooting from leaves cut in half as well.

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zelly thank you very much for that information, sounds like it's definitely worth a shot, will give it a go and see how they come along over the coming weeks

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What does carth have?

Typicaly stated as 1/3-1/4 strength of viridis.

But this paper finds no alkaloids but yet the extract still has activiy in rats:

"Absence of alkaloids in Psychotria carthagenensis Jacq. (Rubiaceae).

Psychotria viridis and P. carthagenensis are often discussed in relation to the hallucinogenic beverage Ayahuasca, used for religious, medicinal and social purposes. The significance of including Psychotria species in this beverage has been understood on the basis of substantial amounts of tryptamine alkaloids detected on leaves of both P. viridis and P. carthagenensis. Nevertheless, there is a long lasting debate over the identification of which Psychotria species are actually traditionally employed. We here report that a P. carthagenensis leaf ethanol extract was found to be devoid of alkaloids. The extract significantly decreased mice body temperature (350 and 500 mg/kg). Toxicity assessment revealed that the extract induced sedation and slight ptoses (75% of animals treated with 1000 mg/kg). Lethality was not observed within 48 h. The data indicate that P. carthagenensis does have bioactive compound(s), possibly active at the central nervous system, but unlikely to be tryptamine alkaloids as in the case of P. viridis. Therefore, if P. carthagenensis is indeed used by ayahuasqueros, its chemical and pharmacological significance have yet to be elucidated."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8941866&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

:unsure:

 

i spent a few years trying to work cartha out.

my conclusion is that it does not contain the usually desired alkaloid but contains opiate receptor active alkaloids....

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21177&view=&hl=saponins&fromsearch=1

t s t .

alba is said to be about 60% viridis potency but i cannot confirm this.....

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