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Torsten

Nutmeg rocks my world

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Normally when people talk about getting off on nutmeg they are ridiculed or chastised. But many folks here know that I have pursued allylbenzene metabolism issues for many years and have a lot of good experiences under my belt with certain nutmeg oils.

In various threads on these forums I have provided details about how to effectively use nutmeg (or other allylbenzene oils) - and how not to use it

However there were two major problems.

1) I never analysed the initial batch of oil I was doing my experiments with or even kept a sample of it.

2) Since 1995 I have not been able to source a nutmeg oil that provided me with the effects I achieved with the oil from prior to 95. The flavour suggested it was of a different composition to later oils. Later oils seemed to never have more than 1% allylbenzenes.

While the bioassays could have also been done with safrol, apiol or elemicin, the latter two are not available in a single compound form, and the former I appear to have a taste aversion to (ie full on gag-reflex). Consuming unidentified mixed oils might have been something I was willing to do in my 20's, but these days I want more scientific milage out of my suffering

Today I am overjoyed! I received two materials that will require MUCH in depth experimentation

Firstly, I received some freshly dried mace (the aril around the nutmeg seed). My research suggests that mace is more likely to be high in myristicin than the nutmeg itself. My first taste of it has been quite surprising.

keeping in mind that I had the pleasure of getting some 2 week old nutmegs last year which were the most aromatic thing I've ever encountered, I was surprised by how pungent the mace is when broken or chewed. Like a 2 y.o. toddler I had to stick it in my mouth . It was strong and bitter, and nowhere near as floral as nutmeg. Bingo! For the first time in 10 years I recognised the taste of the pre-95 nutmeg oil. It's now been abou 15 minutes since I nibbled about 1/5th of a an aril (an aril weighs about 0.5g) and the tip of my tongue is still numb. It has an ever so slight menthol type cooling effect, but the numbing is more pronounced and much longer acting than menthol. I remember this numbing from the pre-95 nutmeg essential oil.

The other surprise is a 100ml bottle of nutmeg oil that arrived today. It is apparently from a high myristicin strain. Both aroma and taste indicate this is true.

So after 10 years of drought I finally get two promising materials in one day. I intend to get both analysed before starting bioassays, so don't expect results too soon.

I should also note that a couple of weeks ago I got a bottle of mace essential oil (in the assumption it would be high in myristicin). Turns out it had 0% constituents with boiling ooint over 200 degC ie no myristicin whatsoever. This only reinforces my belief that all processed nutmeg and mace oils are fractionally distilled and the myristicin sold separately. Some oil producers in Indonesia have openly admitted this, so it appears common and accepted practice.

The mace is now available in the shop. I will try to get the nutmeg oil for the shop too, but not sure what customs thinks about that yet....

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customs should have no problems, i would imagine. there are plenty of asian stores that stock imported nutmeg oil in OZ. (as you know from the sample I sent you)

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Very interesting--- I'd like to hear more. Have you noticed any significant adverse health effects in your previous research? What is your opinion on the often mentioned but apparently unsubstantiated theory that certain allylbenzenes are aminated into the corresponding amphetamines via the human liver? I mean, certainly ingestion of these allylbenzenes i.e. myristicin have an effect--- but is it actually the same effect as the corresponding amphetamine, or something else entirely?

Re: mace--- I'm not ashamed to say that in my younger days I occasionally consumed more nutmeg than is seemly. :D I eventually found that a 1:1 mix of mace and nutmeg (both purchased preground) seemed rather more worthwhile than just nutmeg. Much less palatable, though, if that's possible.

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Originally posted by X. Torris:

Very interesting--- I'd like to hear more.

Well, I won't repeat what I have already written over the years, but will certainly provide any new info that comes to light.

Have you noticed any significant adverse health effects in your previous research?

I never had a toxic effect from the pre-95 oil. In fact one of the reasons we consumed it so frequently was because you could have a good time and not feel like shit the next day. It was our second choice to good MDMA pills.

There was one instance where I passed out about 20 mins after ingestion. This was not from the pre-95 oil! This was one of my last experiments because I realised that I needed to get the right oil before the good effects woud be possible again. Anyway, I passed out and my flatmates cold not wake me. When I finally did wake up after about an hour of them trying to wake me, I was very nauseous and needed go straight back to sleep. No aspect of the experience was pleasant and I felt like shit for 3 days after. This is why I do not advocate consumption of normal nutmeg oil. It may well be fatal. It is obvious to me that the toxic effect is from something other than what feels good.

What is your opinion on the often mentioned but apparently unsubstantiated theory that certain allylbenzenes are aminated into the corresponding amphetamines via the human liver? I mean, certainly ingestion of these allylbenzenes i.e. myristicin have an effect--- but is it actually the same effect as the corresponding amphetamine, or something else entirely?

This is not a theory. Do a search on shulgin and myristicin on these forums and you will find the reference to where liver tissue converted myristicin into MMDA in vitro.

Re: mace--- I'm not ashamed to say that in my younger days I occasionally consumed more nutmeg than is seemly. :D I eventually found that a 1:1 mix of mace and nutmeg (both purchased preground) seemed rather more worthwhile than just nutmeg. Much less palatable, though, if that's possible.

It should be remembered that deaths have occurred from anything as little as a single nutmeg, and is quite common from doses as high as 3 whole nutmegs. The toxic principle may well not be in the essential oil.... or it might. I intend to only work with essential oils to eliminate at least some possibilities. Furthermore I will only experiment with the 200+degC fraction of the oil. This eliminates most substances other than allylbenzenes.

One of these days I will hopefully get to purify a small amount of pure myristicin and other allylbenzenes and then experiment on these in double blind trials. I have achieved good effects from consuming small amounts of sassafras oil (80%+ safrole), dill and parsley seed oil, as well as lots of experiments on nutmeg. The effects of nutmeg and sassafras oil are almost identical to MDA, but only last for about 20 mins after strenuous muscle excercise. This has me convinced of two things.

1) that the allylbenzenes are responsible for the nice effects.

2) that the conversion is dependent on muscle activity.

Point 2 would mean that resting liver tissue in vitro will not give an appropriate picture of how fast and comprehensive the conversion can be. My liver at rest will not convert enough to even feel I have taken anything. It is not until metabolism is accelerated substantially that effects start.

I would like to have tissue samples removed from my body during an experience and to have these analysed. Obviously this will not be from my liver, but I think we will get more meaningful numbers from muscle areas anyway.

[ 17. February 2005, 02:17: Message edited by: Torsten ]

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When i was young , my friends and i used to get off on nutmeg when we couldn't get anything to smoke (Ah the unemployed life !) Anyway we would go to 7/11 buy 1L of milk and 1 small container of nutmeg (the one that comes in a pepper type cylynder) mix the nutmeg into the milk , drink and go to bed then when you woke up the was weired right from the begining. No doubt it works , that's for sure the only problem now is i can't stand the taste of nutmeg , it makes me gag !! To much of a good thing.

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ive been eating the mace of the native nutmegs in our back yard :D tastes a hole lot better then the nuts, couldnt say ive tried to get off on it yet though.

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Are the effects from the oil similiar to that of ground up nutmegs?

When my gnome ate a couple of tablespoons of ground up nutmegs he experienced some pretty cool tactile hallucinations such as music pulsing through his body. These effects where almost similiar to what he has felt on something which can be made from a component of nutmeg oil

But the comedown and taste issue has put him off further tests indefinitley.

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Originally posted by narayan:

Are the effects from the oil similiar to that of ground up nutmegs?

The oil (even bad oil) is usually much better, faster onset and less hangover. Less xmas burps too

teo - the seed does not appear to contain any myristicin or other llylbenzene at all, but the aril and even moreso the husk are rich in myristicin.

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Do you think there's any truth to the story of Nostradamus using nutmeg for his 'visions'?

If so I wonder how he might have prepared them if at all??

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Never heard of this, but yeah, nutmeg can be quite a deliriant and twilight visions are definitely possible.

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so basically get the husks and extract?!

The Nutmeg grown in the carib does not seem to contain as much myristicin.

Or is it the same prob as quoted below?

"This only reinforces my belief that all processed nutmeg and mace oils are fractionally distilled and the myristicin sold separately. Some oil producers in Indonesia have openly admitted this, so it appears common and accepted practice."

Torsten,.... If I can source nutmeg products from the carib,....would you?

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the husk issue applies to our native nutmeg Myristica insipida. No idea about the husks of commercial nutmeg Myristica fragrans. But yeah, head for the aril in both.

I would source nutmeg samples from anywhere I can get them, then test them and then decide if I want more.

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http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm:1104/lecture...res/nutmeg.html

Order Nutmeg products.

http://www.travelgrenada.com/spices.htm

[ 20. February 2005, 07:46: Message edited by: brian ]

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so, what is the myristicin content then?

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Notes

The myristicin component is insecticidal and is thought to contribute to the hallucenogenic properties of the extracts. It is normally lower in oil distilled from West Indian nutmegs and the recent study found only trace amounts in Jamaican nutmeg oil.

from the first site.

Maybe that has to do with the way it is processed and what opart of the Nutmeg fruit it is processed from???

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we have four insipida trees hanging over our fence, fruit is developing at the moment i can send you some if u like torsten.

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Guest electro

this is very interesting .. im going to have to start steam distilling some spices ! :)

any idea if essential oils are pre distilled from spices in shops or is it a pretty safe bet they have not yet been tampered with ?

torsten, do you have any info on how long physical effects lasted for the different oils you consumed ?

eg i saw one experience report at lycaeum claiming to regularly feel effects of nutmeg for over 2 days ! --- this kind of thing makes experimentation a fri night thing so as to not intefere with work :)

also you noted that nutmeg & sassafras oils were similar to mda in effect.. how would you describe dill & parsley seed oils ? similar to their corresponding amphetamine counterparts ?

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my parsley has bolted and the seed stinks of nutmeg :)

There are several other souces of myristicin as well

theres plant in NZ (name???)

but also an apiaceous shrub from the azores islands with a high content

love that one

Research Article

Composition of the essential oil of Chaerophyllum azoricum Trel., an endemic species of the Azores archipelago

Luis G. Pedro 1 *, Jaime A. da Silva 1, José G. Barroso 1, A. Cristina Figueiredo 1, Stanley G. Deans 2, Anja Looman 3, Johannes J. C. Scheffer 3

1Departamento de Biologia Vegetal, Faculdade de Ciências de Lisboa, Bloco C2, Campo Grande, 1749-016 Lisbon, Portugal

2Department of Food Science and Technology, SAC Auchincruive, Ayr KA6 5HW, UK

3Division of Pharmacognosy, Leiden/Amsterdam Center for Drug Research, Leiden University, Gorlaeus Laboratories, PO Box 9502, 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands

*Correspondence to Luis G. Pedro, Departamento de Biologia Vegetal, Faculdade de Ciências de Lisboa, Bloco C2, Campo Grande, 1749-016 Lisbon, Portugal.

Funded by:

Fundação para a Ciência e a Tecnologia, Portugal; Grant Number: PBIC/C/BIA/2070/95

Keywords

Chaerophyllum azoricum Trel.; Apiaceae; essential oil; terpinolene; -terpinene; myristicin; zingiberene

Abstract

The composition of the essential oils isolated from leaves and stems collected during the vegetative and the flowering phases of the plant, and from fruits of Chaerophyllum azoricum Trel., an endemic species of the Azores archipelago, was analysed by GC and GC-MS. Each of the three oils was dominated by its monoterpene fraction (82-91%), terpinolene (44-62%) and -terpinene (9-31%) being the main oil components. The sesquiterpene fraction occurred in a concentration ranging from 3% to 8% with zingiberene as main component (1-5%). In addition to mono- and sesquiterpenes, the oils contained a significant amount of myristicin (5-9%). Copyright © 1999 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Received: 25 January 1999; Accepted: 16 March 1999

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Okay I think we have a great analog for nutmeg.

Petroselinum crispum AKA Parsely

Constituents: Volatile oil (inclluding about 20% myristicin, about 18% apiole, and many other terpenes), flavonoids, phthalides, coumarines (including bergapten), vitamins A, C, and E, and high levels of iron.

Okay atleast in normal chemistry if you mix together a 50/50 mixture of apiole and myristicin and assuming 100% efficency on both and you attempt to make mdma your going to get a 50/50 mixture of MDMA and DMMDA ( well I guess it wouldn't as the only difference is an ether and they are kind of stable generally ). Both are rather similar or so it sounds by shulgin's research.

Now I would have to assume they would follow a very similar pathway the DMMDA might be converted to a lesser extent as it has an extra ether group which would add some extract steric hinderance but the product should be slightly more potent too.

..............................

Okay I just found out the % for mace the difference won't be that much now. ( which is about 80-90% more then the nutmeg )

Okay nutmeg mace has around 20% myristicin & 13% elmcin which if aminated in the liver will form TMA.

BTW Wholesale price estimated at $85/kilo.

PS if anyone feels like trying it out make sure its the essitential oil and not "parsley oil" used in cook as thats just parsely soaked in oil for a while.

[ 25. February 2005, 16:58: Message edited by: bloodbob ]

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Parsleyseed is indeed the commercial source for myristicin. However, because I am looking solely at bioamination (ie consuming oil and letting the body do the rest) I wanted to avoid having complex combinations of oils, especially combinations consisting of the tetra substituted oils. These apiols have a very different effect to myristicin, safrole etc and can have some rather complex sideeffects - I once had pretty severe vertigo problems for 2 weeks after consuming purified dill oil (ie dillapiole).

So parsley oil might be a suitable choice for all the bees out there, but maybe not for consumption of the oil. Alos, keep in mind that there have been fatalities from parsley seed oil which were usually the result of botched home-abortion.

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teonanacatl:

ive been eating the mace of the native nutmegs in our back yard :D tastes a hole lot better then the nuts, couldnt say ive tried to get off on it yet though.

when i was up at cape tribulation there were native nutmeg trees, with nuts, everywhere!

i was wondering if they could b used, i should've loaded up and brought them back:)

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Guest electro

all i can say is wow... thankyou torsten for posting about this yet again !

afoaf decided to pursue this futher...

-----------------------------------------------

report of accidental vapor ingestion

-----------------------------------------------

75 grams of ground nutmeg was purchased and dumped into 5 litres of hot water.

the water was stirred & the aroma of nutmeg filled the air.

The mix was transfered to an essential oil still set up in a small laundry with poor ventilation (not the best of practices :/)

as the temperature hit 100 water began to trickle from the condensor into the recieving flask.

100 ml came across and no oil - what was going on ...

the reciever was swapped for a large glass flask (5l volume) and the top covered with foil to stop steam escape.

the water supply to the reflux column was then shut off & the trickle of water became a rush of steam with tiny droplets of water.

seconds later the droplets of water comming across had an aqua tinge to them & the distillate became cloudy white.

water was switched on & off to maintain the 50:50 steam to liquid distillate ratio over a period of 10 mins.

after 10 minutes the heat was removed from the still and cold water added to the (bright almost luminous) aqua oil floating ontop of the cloudy water to force any remaining oils out.

by this point the smell of nutmeg was becomming overwhelming & the fresh oil was thrown outside into the garden in an attempt to get rid of the smell (very wasteful but at the time it seemed necessary).

he also felt a little foggy & assumed it was from too much vapours and not enough air ... he sat down to get some fresh air.

10 mins later the foggy feeling had intensified and was now accompanied by some euphoria.

by the 30 min point he was lying down on the couch smiling and feeling a sence of floating & surge of warmth washing over his body, not dissimmilar to a low dose mda (closest substance experienced by gnome for comparison)

he lay here for at least 30 mins (though it could have been an hour) before the peak of it wore off . he then wandered about for the next few hours with the effects gradually diminishing.

a slight foggy feeling remained for 3 hrs afterward

[ 30. March 2005, 13:15: Message edited by: electro ]

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LOL. Still, the question remains if the effect was from myristicin or from the other (more sedating/inebriating) actives.

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Guest electro

thats very true :/

but its definatley given him the urge to push this forward too ..

how does australian nutmeg oil compare ? (as many peeps seem ot have / have access to inspida)

[ 30. March 2005, 13:19: Message edited by: electro ]

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