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ThunderIdeal

TWEAKERS THREAD- Caring for Your Body

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WARNING: DO NOT USE STIMULANTS OR IF YOU DO MAKE SURE IT IS INFREQUENT.  STIMULANT USE CAN HAVE DEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES AND MAY CAUSE ADDICTION.

 

DISCLAIMER: nothing i say carries any authority. i just mop up information, good and bad.

however some of the people who provided much of this info are pretty cluey so it may or may not be a good lot of advice

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let's say you've been awake for ages, i dunno maybe you took some stuff. staying awake and doing stuff really fucks with your body, what can we use to buffer some of those effects eg dry sore eyes, tattered mouth etc

i'm assuming (wrongly, i bet) that you are all mature and responsible, take ownership for your actions and have a sensible grasp of PRIORITIES. i don't want to delve into keeping a healthy state of mind. i'm really just interested in making a guide to help keep your body from going to tatters. i link body-related stuff, especially the mouth, with a gigantic drag and/or distraction which focuses your energy frivolously.

i rate keeping the mouth lubricated, but above all else, caring for your body is an every day thing, it isn't just to make up for unhealthy things you do. keeping a good outlook and a sound mind is also an every day thing. the better you are at taking care of yourself regularly, the better you will probably be after an unusually long period of being awake.

i've also included harm min (full credit to alchemica) to reduce neuro toxicity and whatever

GENERAL

- no MAOI's

- drink water, frequently, but monitor your bodies feedback. i think sometimes your body doesn't want a drink.

- eat.

- don't fritter your energy away, fidgeting, clenching, yapping.

- try meditating.

- there is a pre cursor which can help restore your neuro transmitter levels. at this point i'm not advising that it be used for several days after, this could increase neuro toxicity... but then again it will stave off the psychological hangover... feedback?

- MODERATION. shit is fucking toxic man. fucks you up all kinds of ways.

AMINOS

"Protein powder (WPC) with each meal and some fibre to go with it. Rather than taking individual amino acids, the full spectrum protein powder is probably a better way to go. Supplemental L-tyrosine or L-DOPA alone could probably cause more problems than they are worth - might be best for the days after.

most of us know a bit about l-tyrosine and l-tryptophan, precursors to dopamine and seratonin. they are a natural part of our diet. their riskier cousins are l-dopa and 5-htp, i see no reason that these are necessary but if using 5htp, taking it with EGCG could reduce conversion to serotonin in the gut, meaning more bang for your buck and less queasiness. probably make tyrosine and tryptophan a part of your regular schedule, and take them leading up to a binge by all means but probably better not to use them during. there may be reason to believe that taking both, instead of just one, is the way to go. torsten recommends tyrosine when you start your day and tryptophan when you're finishing up the day to maintain diurnal rhythms or whatever. tryptophan has the added difficulty that it competes poorly with other aminos to cross the blood brain barrier - have meager or zero protein intake leading up to your tryptophan dose for best effect. these two aminos are only useful if your neurotransmitter levels are depleted.

HARM MINIMISATION

A high potency A-Z multivitamin, additional B-complex formulation, several grams of omega-3 a day"

several grams of omega 3 seems like a lot to me but i'd probably listen to the man anyway. note that krill oil, while much more expensive, is supposed to be a superior formulation of omega 3's. the ratios are closer to what the body wants and it's a stronger antioxidant, plus no fishy reflux.

Omega 3 for general health, reduce the inflammation and oxidative stress, a deficiency induces changes in dopaminergic neurotransmission(http://www.jlr.org/c...tract/43/8/1209). Probably no point if it's not something you regularly use.

vitamin D3/calcium

Attenuates the dopamine and serotonin-depleting effects of neurotoxic doses: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17105922 . Attenuates neurotoxicity in dopaminergic neurons http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16758362 . Lots of other roles it plays in general well-being and it's easy enough to be stuck inside and miss out on sunlight. You do have to be careful to not over do it with the supplemental form.

a fat soluble antioxidant like alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) or melatonin

R-ALA for the antioxidant properties. No need to be using lots of antioxidants all at once, just throwing some options out there. I'd avoid Vitamin C on it's own because it's hydrophillic so it will struggle to get to decent concentrations in all areas of the brain and will speed up the urinary excretion of the stim at the doses you'd need (can be good or bad). In studies testing it's effect against lipid peroxidation and other reactive oxygen species it didn't perform as well as ALA or EGCG.Good to use in small doses during and large ones after you're finished to flush the metabolites and left over initial stuff out of your system if you want.

Melatonin if you can get the dose right and not get clouded thinking. Probably try and dose at night, even if awake, to maintain some sort of diurnal rhythm. http://dx.doi.org/10...9X.2010.00761.x

Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG/green tea extract). Plenty of positive effects: http://dx.doi.org/10...res.2006.04.071, http://www3.intersci...244019/abstract etc.

Omega 3 for general health, reduce the inflammation and oxidative stress, a deficiency induces changes in dopaminergic neurotransmission(http://www.jlr.org/c...tract/43/8/1209). Probably no point if it's not something you regularly use.

Immune boosters like garlic/echinacea/zinc or lactoferrin, along with the extra vitamin D3 might help in winter to avoid getting sick.

MOUTH

chelated magnesium to decrease clenching

some people use mouth guards or pacifiers if they are bad clenchers.

FIND A WAY TO MINIMISE CLENCHING, GURNING, GRINDING AND THE LIKE

throat

symptoms: sore throat, dry throat

drink water.

you can buy tooth paste, gel and liquid for dry mouth. the liquid and gum are amazing, well worth it, the gum is probably a more convenient method but has the same effect (foamy, almost imaginary spit) this is really important, it will protect your teeth, help your mouth to relax and keep it in working condition. it's all a bizarre cycle, keep your mouth happy and your compulsions will be less inclined to destroy it. try to preserve saliva.

one of these products is a mouth spray which is extremely beneficial. reason being that the area around your tonsils, and that dangly thing in your throat, are extremely hard to wet and always end up sore. the spray can be applied directly onto these areas.

there are actually lots of products if you find the right chemist. there is a mild mouthwash with mouth enzymes, for instance, and bottles of replacement/artificial saliva (i forget what they were called, dark liquid quite expensive). all of these products look promising.

lozenges? to prevent infection mainly. not sure if these are good.

teeth, tongue and gums

symptoms: distracted by irregularities, teeth chip and fall apart over time, tongue and gums get shredded from grinding, tonguing, gurning and the like

drink water, keep your mouth wet, (us the dry mouth formulations mentioned above or preserve saliva)

maybe best to see a dentist and get your fucked up teeth looked at. holes and stuff are distracting.

keep your teeth clean.

In the event of non-healing ulcers a medication eg keralog is applied to create a tacky protective cover allowing healing

lips

symptoms: cracks, dryness

papaw ointment or almond oil. different types of product, both long lasting.

there is also vaseline and regular lip balm, i think the above two are better.

fancypants recommends for general lip maintenance to exfoliate with a toothbrush, moisturise (with?) and seal the moisturiser in with vas'.

EYES

symptoms: poorly lubricated, collect debris, tissue can get a (probably tiny) highly irritating tear/cut

there are several formulations for dry eyes, some come in a large bottle and others come in little boxes of about 20 single use vials. they are all rather difficult to self-administer so it helps to hold your eyelids right open and get somebody else to do it. they are more of a shock when they are cold or drop from a height.

they are all quite perishable so use them up.

here are some:

- polyethylene glycol and propylene glycol - confirmed works well

- carmellose sodium and glycerin

- parrafin and wool fat (moreso for use before going to sleep, this stuff is a gel, you squeeze out a little worm of it from one corner of the eye to the other)

there is a formulation for red eyes whose active is actually phenylephrine hydrochloride. maybe this works because of it's vasoconstricting proptery to reduce red eye, but it might actually be a poor choice in this instance. we're after lubrication really.

MUSCLES

symptoms: cramps

probably a sign that you are straying beyond the point of moderation.

Chelated magnesium for cramps and a good source of balanced sodium/potassium electrolytes without too much sugar to sip on if you can find one.

tiger balm

warm bath or heat pack.. yes? no?

SKIN

symptoms: acne caused afterwards

not sure what causes this, suggest taking extra care with your skin during and for a couple of weeks after. lots of information around on dealing with this but alchemica has also suggested prescription gels erythromycin gel and adapalene as well as chelated zinc. use a rubbing alcohol to get rid of sebum, don't stress out, touch your skin excessively etc etc, heat and humidity don't help.

vitamin A may also assist.

thats a start. please contribute!!!

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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Well, I usually try and make sure I've had vit B, multivitamin, and l-tryptophan the morning before I intend to venture. I have a detox herbal tea mix (from T2) with heaps of different herbs, and I'll add some purple corn extract powder for the antioxidant activity into a teapot and drink it all. During a venture at some point I'll wash and moisturise my face and hands with all my girlie moisturisers which makes a huge difference how my skin looks the next day. Sometimes I'll have a shower but a quick bird-bath is fine. I always have eyedrops lying around and use them every now and then. I always eat during ventures, though not always the best food; I loves me my Trip Pie which is to say a microwaved frozen meat pie (lol the looks I get sometimes eating that while off chops is funny). But watermelon and mandarines are awesome! I'm a bad clencher but hate chewing gum, so a chupa chup keeps my mouth moving enough, though the sweetness can get cloying, just stick it in a glass and save for later. I brush my teeth at least once. I drink endless cups of black tea+milk, venturing or not. For a sore throat, a (not)pepsi gargle works wonders though isn't great for your gums and teeth.

As for lips, the best thing I ever learned for taking care of your lips are to lightly exfoliate them with your toothbrush when you brush your teeth, and then put a moisturiser (any old moisturiser will do) on them, and then a "waxier" type of lip balm to keep the moisture in. I do it every night before bed and my lips are great, puffy and almost lineless.

Can't think of anything else offhand - if this is indeed what you were after, TI - but I'll edit if I think of anything else.

Oh and sometimes a mug of peppermint tea is great if your guts are feeling less than awesome.

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thanks FP. this is the sort of thing i'm after, even if it's for the wrong scenario.

ideally we could all come to some sort of consensus on which are the most important practices, with a factual basis. personal practices are still good to hear about though.

for instance, i left neti out so far. neti, or nasal irrigation, probably can't hurt, cleaning out and re-wetting the nasal passages.

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Hmmm

isn't a harm-reduction thread about something extremely unhealhty self-contradicting?

I mean, bingin on speed for days is something I don't understand.

The body tells the owner, ok, it was a good 8-12-15 hours, lets go home, smoke some grass/have sex / masturbate / watch a stupid comedy, whatever to chill out ... eventually if you haven't been having more than say, 1 ~1,5 gram snorted, you will sleep ....

next day, appetite returns, you eat, body is coming to its normal pace...

and the last days experience remains a special thing, like these stuff should be

or

I didn't understand the point of the thread and I am completely off-topic....

ThunderIdeal, I will edit out my post if you think it's not helping...

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Things that might help:

Protein powder (WPC) with each meal and some fibre to go with it. Rather than taking individual amino acids, the full spectrum protein powder is probably a better way to go. Supplemental L-tyrosine or L-DOPA alone could probably cause more problems than they are worth - might be best for the days after. A high potency A-Z multivitamin, additional B-complex formulation, several grams of omega-3 a day, supplemental vitamin D3/calcium and a fat soluble antioxidant like alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) or melatonin are worth considering if you want to go to the effort.

Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG/green tea extract). Plenty of positive effects: http://dx.doi.org/10...res.2006.04.071, http://www3.intersci...244019/abstract etc.

Melatonin if you can get the dose right and not get clouded thinking. Probably try and dose at night, even if awake, to maintain some sort of diurnal rhythm. http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-079X.2010.00761.x

Downers. Something that will knock you out once you're done (but still unable to get a good sleep). As much as I hate the stuff, I've heard Seroquel does a good job if you have a few days to waste. Also beneficial to have the antipsychotic (not just a plain hypnotic) on hand if you are extremely sleep deprived and starting to feel your sanity slip away from you.

Chelated magnesium for cramps and a good source of balanced sodium/potassium electrolytes without too much sugar to sip on if you can find one. Chelated zinc might help acne otherwise erythromycin gel + adapalene might be OK if you want something stronger and on a longer term basis.

Immune boosters like garlic/echinacea/zinc or lactoferrin, along with the extra vitamin D3 might help in winter to avoid getting sick.

Edited by Alchemica
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it's no different from, say, seeing a chiro so that your back doesn't cause agony during a trip (and hinder the subtler aspects of the experience by dragging you back into your body).

i can't/won't censor anybody, but there's no need to have this debate or any debate, this thread may as well be "taking care of your body on a 35 hour hike".

i don't want to delve into psychology but we'll see what you all contribute. i'm really just interested in making a guide to help keep your body from going to tatters. i link body-related stuff, especially the mouth, with a gigantic drag and/or distraction which focuses your energy frivolously.

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What remedies do you have for a sore tongue? Mine seems to get ulcer like abrasions all around it. Bloody painful.

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What remedies do you have for a sore tongue? Mine seems to get ulcer like abrasions all around it. Bloody painful.

 

I always assumed that was a result of having a dry mouth for hours at a time and occasionally nipping it with your teeth, so maybe use one of the 'mouth-wetting' ideas?

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I always assumed that was a result of having a dry mouth for hours at a time and occasionally nipping it with your teeth, so maybe use one of the 'mouth-wetting' ideas?

 

It is caused more by a bit of obsessive compulsive disorder that only happens occasionally, rubbing my tongue against my teeth a thousand times. ( and the accidental nip here and there) The next day the tongue is raw. The tongue is not something that can have topical ointments applied to it so i was thinking of a herbal mouth wash ?

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Must haves in my kit:

L-tyrosine (for the day after)

5-HTP (ditto)

Milk Thistle extract (for the liver, especially good if you've been drinking)

Berocca

Tiger balm

Also even though you might not want to, eating something will usually leave you feeling better for it.

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guide to caring for your body during unusually long periods awake:

stay up until you need to go down.

when you go down do so quickly.

If you have the presence of mind to be prepared for staying awake take lots of vit c beforehand.

If not... enjoy the rush and then blitz yourself at the end with something that makes you sleep...

after all, you are not doing anything that natural by making yourself be awake, make it go to sleep :)

just some thoughts

edit: sorry folks, i rushed in here without properly understanding the thread. I apologize, this seems like a very wise thread

Edited by kindness
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It is caused more by a bit of obsessive compulsive disorder that only happens occasionally, rubbing my tongue against my teeth a thousand times. ( and the accidental nip here and there) The next day the tongue is raw. The tongue is not something that can have topical ointments applied to it so i was thinking of a herbal mouth wash ?

 

try your best not to do it. i reckon the worse your teeth are, the more impossible it will be to resist, that's why i suggested a dentist. try to keep saliva in your mouth, the act of holding it there and not swallowing both keeps it all lubricated and inhibits the behavior. the behavior makes your mouth drier and the dryness makes your teeth mouth seem like it needs attention from your tongue, so it is a self-feeding cycle. brush your teeth repeatedly, helps with the OCD factor "aaghgh there is something in that little nook, i must tongue at it". you can buy no-toothpaste little disposable tooth brushes which have a gel bubble or something, they're quite good and they have a pick on the handle end.

the mouth lubricant i suggested is pretty good, and since you don't want to swallow it straight away and waste it, it helps to make you consciously preserve saliva.

overall i don't think it compares to the holes you get in your tongue from madam m.

several grams of omega-3 a day, supplemental vitamin D3/calcium and a fat soluble antioxidant like alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) or melatonin are worth considering if you want to go to the effort.

Epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG/green tea extract). Plenty of positive effects: http://dx.doi.org/10...res.2006.04.071, http://www3.intersci...244019/abstract etc.

 

thanks alchemica

some follow up answers would be great

omega 3 and R-ALA for antioxidant properties i assume

D3 - ? to account for a lack of sun in ones lifestyle? to assist in healthy teeth? this one seems like a low priority to me.

EGCG - neuro protectant

melatonin - neuro protectant

both sound good, i've got a feeling melatonin CAN help even without being ingested, and i hope i'm right because it's unavailable to most of us.

will rummage up some idea of when to take these, how much, will only be a rough idea though.

Chelated zinc might help acne otherwise erythromycin gel + adapalene might be OK if you want something stronger and on a longer term basis.

 

arythromycin gel and adapalene sounds good, never heard of them so i'm guessing prescription? although i was actually hoping somebody knew WHY it specifically causes an outbreak of acne so it might be circumvented before it happened. do the sebaceous glands go into overdrive perhaps, because the skin has dried out?

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thanks meanies. is the vitamin C used as an antioxidant?

i don't intend to compile any of the info on anti psychotics or knocking oneself out, but it couldn't hurt to be posted. i agree there is nothing really wrong with something to put you to sleep, it might even be necessary if one has commitments, but some people are in no hurry to get to sleep (nay some find the whole duration rewarding) and i'm assuming these are the people who need to worry most about hoarse throat and fuck eye and the like.

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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ah hah fuck eye.. thats funny.

I mentioned vit c as an anti-oxidant. I am not sure if this thread is talking about empty em aye m d ma or s peed. Either way I don't think it hurts to dose on lotsa vit c beforehand - again... if you have the presence of mind to do so. This is particularly worthwhile with the old empty m aye.

There is a very detailed journal article on erowid on why vit c is the goods beforehand - http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml well maybe it's not a peer reviewed article but it's still interesting if you care about your body...

but this thread might be about sniffffffffffffffffffffff other things.

if thats the case then I don't really know much to suggest, other than water and fruit. body doesn't want food.... force fruit in.. it will help.

Oh and yes, either empty m aye or the other one for me require shut down by chemical means. Otherwise I trip on into mania... which isn't nice.

peace

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Magnesium chelate

potassium thru bananas

missing REM sleep is quite bad for the body, if you suffer from cold sores or have any other conditions similar like herpes, missing regular sleep prompts these things to activate.

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we're talking about the stuff that keeps you awake forever, at least i am lol and alchemica surely is. pity that skirting around the name like this won't do much for people searching for this kind of thread, let alone confusing everyone that tries to contribute.

potassium is good for the brain but any more specific info on why potassium? and indeed, i will amend magnesium to the chelated form since this is the most useful type (folks, magnesium is supposed to reduce clenching, which apparently has something to do with calcium ion channels reacting to changing seratonin levels or something. it is also a muscle relaxant.)

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eidt :P

The only thing I can really say that works for me after long periods awake is to then have an equally long period asleep.

Being aided to get to that sleep is the key, (for me) and that can be by what ever means.

sorry can't be much more help.. good suggestions in this thread though :blink:

Edited by kindness

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edit: double post and not a very good one - negatize it!

Edited by meanies

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omega 3 and R-ALA for antioxidant properties i assume

R-ALA for the antioxidant properties. No need to be using lots of antioxidants all at once, just throwing some options out there. I'd avoid Vitamin C on it's own because it's hydrophillic so it will struggle to get to decent concentrations in all areas of the brain and will speed up the urinary excretion of the stim at the doses you'd need (can be good or bad). In studies testing it's effect against lipid peroxidation and other reactive oxygen species it didn't perform as well as ALA or EGCG. Good to use in small doses during and large ones after you're finished to flush the metabolites and left over initial stuff out of your system if you want.

Omega 3 for general health, reduce the inflammation and oxidative stress, a deficiency induces changes in dopaminergic neurotransmission(http://www.jlr.org/c...tract/43/8/1209). Probably no point if it's not something you regularly use.

D3 - ? to account for a lack of sun in ones lifestyle? to assist in healthy teeth? this one seems like a low priority to me.

Attenuates the dopamine and serotonin-depleting effects of neurotoxic doses: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17105922 . Attenuates neurotoxicity in dopaminergic neurons http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16758362 . Lots of other roles it plays in general well-being and it's easy enough to be stuck inside and miss out on sunlight. You do have to be careful to not over do it with the supplemental form.

erythromycin gel and adapalene sounds good, never heard of them so i'm guessing prescription? although i was actually hoping somebody knew WHY it specifically causes an outbreak of acne so it might be circumvented before it happened. do the sebaceous glands go into overdrive perhaps, because the skin has dried out?

Both prescription and probably not worth bothering with unless it's an issue before giving your body the extra battering. Guess it's the noradrenergic effects of stimulants -> adrenals -> elevated androgens -> more sebum but even just the added stress on the body, compulsive touching around the face and poorer hygeine add to it. Benzoyl peroxide cream is available without a prescription but can cause extra irritation to the skin.

Still, a candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. Nothing will make sleep deprivation + toxins 100% healthy. That long spell awake (from anything) can easily become full blown hell before you are even aware of it.

Edited by Alchemica
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i've incorporated the suggestions from alchemica and the tiger balm suggestion. i'm also going to ask the mods to change the title.

it's a bit of a tangent but i really have to suggest, on the rare occasions we do this sort of thing, to make the most of it. practice meditation as much as possible, perform yoga or tai chi or whatever you know, give yourself or somebody else a kick ass massage, clean your house and accomplish all of those little things that will help keep you feeling satisfied during the difficult week that might be about to follow.

keep the suggestions coming?

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brains comment on the following if possible

some of this leaks over into other areas and i could post more but want to stay somewhat on topic

Guide to Neurotransmitter depletion

- http://neuroassist.com/Depletion1.htm

- Explains everything about how giving precursors to neurotransmitters depletes other neurotransmitters and how the only way to correct neurotransmitter levels is to take both dopamine and serotonin precursors and not just the one

- also explains how SSRI's cause long term depression and serious depletion of serotonin

magnesium prevents tolerance http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20081016/msgs/858452.html and other stuff

Piracetam

Modulates Serotonin and dopamine receptors, Enhances neurotransmission, Anti Oxidant, and also potentiates all stimulants. Makes your peak feel more clean

3200mg before stimulant and after

Green Tea extracts (EGCG)

Take with 5-htp so that 5-htp gets converted to serotonin in the brain and not in your gut

Deprenyl (Selegiline)

Description: MAO-B inhibitor, not to be mistaken with ordinary MAOI's. it reduces cardiovascular toxicity, inhibits formation of peroxides in the brain. inhibits Dopamine metabolism. it may revive dead neurons in the brain. it may reverse neurotoxicity. It is even said it inhibits neurotoxicity from METH use.

L-Theanine

Glutamate receptor antagonist (AMPA, Kainate, NMDA), Dopamine releaser, Enhances focus, mood, and memory. reduces anxiety and nervousness

Inositol

Regulates serotonin, Calcium Ion concentration control, which means controls build up of tolerance to amphetamines. also increases REM activity during sleep

1000-2000mg a day, usually before sleep.

Methyl Donors (Betaine, aka TMG, aka TriMethylGlycine)

Increased Methylation via Methyl donors have shown to increase neurotransmittor levels, Methylation aids in the production of SAM-e, which is the building block of serotonin, dopamine and noradrealine.

Milk Thistle

Liver protecting supplement

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I think you can die from sleep depravation in around ten days? Less time than it takes for you to starve from lack of food. I managed 5 days awake once .Started hallucinating, walked into a brickwall and decided to call it quits... slept for two days straight. Nice helpful info guys...

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Piracetam

Modulates Serotonin and dopamine receptors, Enhances neurotransmission, Anti Oxidant, and also potentiates all stimulants. Makes your peak feel more clean

3200mg before stimulant and after

 

Where can you get this. From what i can gather you need a script?

Not wanting to turn this into a "who can stay awake the longest" ego type discussion, but what are the general times people call it quits. I have found usually by the 5th sunrise its time to go to bed. Ive never experienced solid hallucinations from sleep dep. I do catch the odd shadow cat or strange edge of vision tweaks but other then that everything is pretty norm.

I find that after about three nights awake you start to enter an almost meditative state. A state where you can select the thoughts that enter your mind. There is no on going chatter just a clean single and slow one thought at a time type of processing going on. Can help heaps with creativity and some of my most fav work has been achieved in this state.

Food advice-

Yogurt and Fruit - This can sometimes be the only food i can bare. Keeps your mouth wet and your stomach active.

Gummi Fruit Lollies - Gets some chew action in and keeps your sugar levels up.

Green Tea - Definately makes me feel a little better.

Edited by Slybacon

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going so long without sleep is asking for psychological problems...

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I think it is something that can be experienced without psychological consequences. Not for everyone but its definitely ok for some. Im not talking doing this regularly, maybe once a year or less.

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