LSA Extraction

[Auxin]

cookie-monster:

It does not form an aezeotrope with water

That is incorrect, or at least misleading, it does form an azeotrope in which it lowers the bp of water. However I can find no reference to the effect of water lowering the bp of methanol... nor can I find any source stating that that situation is zeotropic in reference to the boiling point of methanol (that it doesnt happen). My CRC and condensed chemical dictionary do not address water/methanol boiling point depression at all and the merc only makes mention of the azeotrope that lowers the bp of water... anyone have references that prove if methanol/water mixtures are truly zeotropic in regard to the boiling point of methanol?

(for the record 10%(v/v) methanol boils at 92.8° C, 20% = 87.8°, 30% = 84.0°, 40% = 80.9°, 50% = 78.3°, 60% = 75.9° ... 100% = 64.7° according to the Merck Index, eighth edition)

[ 27. January 2005, 16:54: Message edited by: Auxin ]

[Rev]

I though methanol got bioconverted to formaldehyde and so while not carcinogenic is a pro-carcinogen if ingested

I like stroodes idea

LSA's are unstable so youre not going to extract them well

better to find what LSA is insoluble in and us it to rip out any other crud to make a cleaner seed

would this then be legal?

extracting all the poison from the substance while leaving the drug intact

cos your not really extracting the drug, def not manufacturing a drug but maybe its a 'preparation' under the loosest definition

[cookie-monster]

The concept of impurities depressing a boiling point is well known in chemistry. The idea that an azeotropes boiling point changes depending on its % in the solution is wrong. An azeotrope like any other species has a defined boiling point. Methanol does not form an azeotrope with water. I didn't pull the idea out of thin air. It is a well known fact to any chemist. You wont find a paper on it written this century. Check a uni level chem textbook to confirm this one for yourself. The 30 odd degree difference in boiling points means you will still need a fractionating column to seperate it cleanly though. With a good fractionating column you will see the methanol come over at its boiling point followed by the water at 100 degrees. The temperature of the solution boiling under the column will conform to your Merck data as the distillation progresses.

[apothecary]

I think theres a definite pattern emerging here.

There are both simple and difficult methods of extraction.

Stroodes, while your method most probably works (taking your gnomes experience into account) I get the feeling that you dont get as much LSA in your finished product as say with a polar/nonpolar extraction using ether and alcohol or a full acid/base extraction.

I wouldn't try it with Ipomea spp. but I guess HBWR could cut it, considering almost triple the amount of amides.

I wonder if the extraction method has any effect on the durability of the extract. If you consider it, an almost pure extract of LSA would be very sensitive to light, heat, etc. The cruder the extract, the less exposure to light, etc.

These are all interesting questions, my gnome tells me he is very anxious for his pay to come through so he can start experimenting.

As a side question, what would you guys recommend for my gnome? Morning glories require many, many more seeds, but contain no cyanide glucocamides or whatever. HBWR only requires 5-10 seeds, but theres the chance of of ingesting the above chemical along with the good stuff.

Time isn't an issue, my gnome isn't really looking just to get off, just curious how far his conciousness goes.

[Auxin]

cookie-monster:

The idea that an azeotropes boiling point changes depending on its % in the solution is wrong. An azeotrope like any other species has a defined boiling point.

Absolutely, I realized I stated that poorly after posting.

 

cookie-monster:

Methanol does not form an azeotrope with water... It is a well known fact to any chemist. You wont find a paper on it written this century. Check a uni level chem textbook to confirm this one for yourself.

A well known fact that is not taught in uni in my country, nor is mentioned in any chemistry textbooks used in those courses (101 through 299), nor is it mentioned in any standard referance books... under those conditions I wonder how long it will remain to be 'well known'. I'm not saying I dont beleive you, I havent seen any evidence of methanol/water azeotropy, but I was asking for references because I dont view scientific statements with total certainty based on word of mouth or unsupported doctrine- hense my wish to see a source that lists it as zeotropic.

[112358Hz]

I've heard that Vodka can be used as a polar solvent. Is this true?

[cookie-monster]

Hi Auxin.

If your old chemistry professor could hear you he would shake his head in dismay. Perhaps things like Raoult's law aren't taught at your universities but they certainly are in all the civilised countries.

Raoult's law states that a molecules vapour pressure above a boiling solution is proportional to its mole percentage within the solution boiling. Every uni level text has a section on this. Deviations of Raoult's law are common and explained by intermolecular attractions such as but not exclusively azeotropes. In these chapters the exceptions are explained and a comparison of methanol/water and ethanol/water solutions is usually shown graphically to illustrate the difference between a azeotropic system and a non azeotropic system.

Unfortunately my text books were recently confiscated so I cant give you a ref from a current text but I do have an old classic - Laboratory Experiments in Organic Chemistry 7th Ed by Roger Adams, johnson and wilcox. Check pages 21 to 27 for a full explanation.

[occidentalis]

apothecary:

Morning glories require many, many more seeds, but contain no cyanide glucocamides or whatever. HBWR only requires 5-10 seeds, but theres the chance of of ingesting the above chemical along with the good stuff.

There it is again.

Apothecary, do you have any evidence that cyanogenic glycosides are present in HBWR seeds, apart from the one article on erowid?

That article is unsubstantiated and unreferenced and no one seems to be able to find any other evidence yet everyone keeps repeating that there are cyanogenic glycosides in HBWR.

Please, can we stop saying this until someone provides some solid evidence?

[apothecary]

Fraker, it's true. Even water can be used as a polar solvent. You just want something that evaporates cleanly and quickly.

creach, as requested I have done a bit of research, apart from the one article on erowid.

The problem that appears is that many people have mixed up their info on Ipomea spp. and Argyreia nervosa. However, I've managed to split some of thie info up, I think appropriately.

I used the Argyreia Nervosa wikipedia entry as a starting point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyreia_nervosa

Then worked from there. I came across hundreds of entries that all had nothing more than a footnote saying "it contains cyanide!" or similar. Example, down the bottom of this page listing the alkaloidal content of various parts of the plant:

http://www.tacethno.com/info/ipomoea/seed-...d-alkaloids.txt

(scroll down for A. nervosa info)

Most of the posts seemed almost entirey inconclusive. Then I came across this one:

http://www.iamshaman.com/hbwr/convolvulaceae.htm

Characteristic of most of the ethneogenic posts on any plant, it's a horrible hodgepodge of information taken from several places. The information is all from scientific/botanical referneces, but the author clearly had little idea of what he was researching.

However, there is one chunk of the post that says something definitive regardless of whether applied to Ipomea spp. or Argyreia Nervosa, (as they are both part of the Convolvulaceae family):

"Family characterization: Vines with milky sap; showy, actinomorphic, funnelform to salverform, plicate corolla with induplicate-valvate and/or convolute aestivation; 5 epipetalous stamens; 2-carpellate ovary with axile placentation; septifragal capsule; and large embryo with folded, often bifid cotyledons. Various alkaloids and cyanogenic glycosides present. Tissues commonly with calcium oxalate crystals. Anatomical features: articulated latex canals or latex cells; intraxyl-ary phloem in the petiole (bicollateral bundles) and stem (Fig. 99: ; and unitegmic, generally tenuinucel-late ovules."

That's definitive enough for me. But for the sake of completeness, I'll include some anecdotal evidence from the same page:

http://www.iamshaman.com/hbwr/hbwrmyths.htm

You'll notice they go ahead and dispel the myth about the seed coating causing sickness. They challenge the myth about strychnine in the seeds. They say nothing about the cyanogenic glycosides.

I'm sure they would've said something on it if they didn't believe it.

As an aside, that page says that the part of the seeds that causes sickness is the essential oils in the seeds. Doesn't that kind of mean that a polar/nonpolar extracted product would still cause nausea? In that case, it means just like most other plants, an acid/base extraction is required. Interesting.

[occidentalis]

Right

Good to see you've taken the trouble to look around a bit. That info is a bit more supportive but I'd still like to see a peer reviewed paper.

[112358Hz]

How many people agree that metholated spirits would be safe for use in an extraction.

[Torsten]

apothecary - as I said, I have noticed the amygdalin type cyanogenic glycoside in Merremia and hence this is a good enough reference to include it as a trait of the family. From what I remember plants usually only produce one or the other glycoside rather than several different ones. So if the amygdalin type is present in Merremia then this is probably also the type present in the family. Because amygdalin is easy to recognise and certainly not present in Ipomoea violacea or Argyreia nervosa it would be rather unusual for these species to contain any cyanogenic glycoside.

In other words, if your seed tastes like apple pips or bitter almonds then don't eat them.

On the other hand if you don't mind the occasional apple pip or peach kernel then a few woodrose seeds will not contain any more cyanide than these.

Cyanide is in lots of foods including many cereals, pawpaw, sweet potatoes (yes, a member of the convolvulaceae), lots of fruit especially stone fruit etc etc. The body is well equipped to deal with tiny amounts of cyanide and it is unlikely that anyone will make HBWR seeds one of the staples in their diet. I think the concern over such tiny amounts of cyanide is irrelevant.

[Torsten]

Austin, D. F. & Eich, E.: Synopsis of Stictocardia with another Madagascan species, S. mojangensis (Convolvulaceae). – Willdenowia 31: 79-85. 2001. – ISSN 0511-9618.

The Madagascan endemic Ipomoea mojangensis is transferred to Stictocardia and the combination S. mojangensis validated. This species differs from most others in Stictocardia by having large clusters of white to pinkish or pale lavender flowers, reflexed mature fruits with a "cap" and a honey-like liquid that surrounds the seeds and dries to produce a shiny surface. Also in contrast with the other known species, leaves are absent when flowers are present. The species is placed in Stictocardia even though the fruits are in certain respects different from all other known members of that genus. Yet, the endocarp with the pockets that hold the seeds is constant in all known Stictocardia species. The species is described and illustrated, and a key and distribution map are given for all known members of the genus. Furthermore, the species is characterized phytochemically (occurrence of pyrrolidine/ tropane/nortropane alkaloids and cyanogenic glycosides).

[bloodbob]

Just like water the bittering agents form an azeotrope with ethanol so it can't be seperated. You could probably seperate the menthanol and enthanol but most OTC stuff won't just contain menthanol. If you want to sperate it you could I believe heavly dilute the enthanol in benzene and preform fractional distillation as most of the bittering agents will prefer to form azeotropes with the bezening but then again who wants to play with a potent carcigen and who knows much your gonna transfer over in the distillation.

[2b]

Did a test on the weekend , poured some 100% metho into a dish and left to evaporate in the sun.A yellow oily film was noticed floating on top as it got down low ?

 

quote:

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How many people agree that metholated spirits would be safe for use in an extraction.

---

After seeing this i will change my mind and say no it's not the best product to use , why not water ? It seems to work , see link :

http://www.tacethno.com/info/argyreia/report01.html

Crush, soak, strain, evap no harsh solvents very user friendly. All we need now is some ones gnome to give it a go and report back !

[mescalito]

This was the traditional method no?

Someone stole my plants of the gods book but I'm sure it was in there.

[cookie-monster]

The oil floating is the denaturant. It will also evaporate as by design its boiling point is +/- 2 degrees that of ethanol azeotrope. It is hanging around as the ethanol evaporates because the EtOH is more volatile than the denaturant. You would probably have to heat to between 80 - 90 degrees to remove all traces of the EtOH and the denaturant.

Water would probably be a good extraction solvent as the LSAs are fairly polar but you might experience losses when evaporating.

Acetone is excellent as a plant extraction solvent although it can be a little nonspecific, removing a lot more compounds from the plant tissue than ROHs or H2O. It is very clean in its industrial form, evaporating without residue and at low temperature. If the goal is simply to extract the LSAs it should be good. If you are processing the extract to a pure sample of LSA the array of compounds it extracts may make separation tedious.

[Guest d0tb0y]

As far as I got told, a really smart dude I know had this debate and tested standard methylated spirits (the kind in supermarkets) and found it to have absolutely no methanol - this is because of people drinking it sadly enough

the denaturant is MIBK - methy isobutyl ketone i believe - it is pretty darn non toxic, i believe, and won't really effect you. Check an msds.

Dunno if this helps, just 0.02c

[devils_cactus]

hey can someone pm with a good and simple exraction process?

brand names of chems also appreciated...

if its no too much trouble

[2b]

How's about this one:

http://12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/mescal...extraction.html

:cool:

[Dirty Old Man]

d0tb0y/n00dle:

the denaturant is MIBK - methy isobutyl ketone i believe - it is pretty darn non toxic, i believe, and won't really effect you. Check an msds.

Dunno if this helps, just 0.02c

Just checked LD50's

MIBK is approx. 2800mg/kg

Methanol is approx. 5000mg/kg

Ethanol is approx. 7000mg/kg

[devils_cactus]

thanks dude

i ments LSA extraction tho...

[apothecary]

devils_cactus, to quote a reference on alkaloidal extraction (I believe DMT).

"The thing is, almost all fun plant alkaloids (except maybe THC) are nitrogen based. This means you have to do pretty much the same extraction on all of them."

An acid/base extraction isn't specific to just mescaline. People use it to extract most fun bits out of their ethnobotanics using an acid/base extraction.

[ 01. February 2005, 20:29: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[eeroborroc]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by eeroborroc

[apothecary]

danemacca,

Yes bacardi 151 is on my list of alcoholic polar solvents.

It is 75.5% alcohol a bottle. $70 a bottle. 750ml I believe.

75.5% is slightly lower than most of the extractions listed in various posts, but I think still adequate.

The problem is, the cost is prohibitive. If you can find a decent source of ethanol, it's only $40-60 a bottle.

I'm considering the best solution pricewise to be isopropyl right now. A gnome I know talked to a chemist at the shop, and he was told you can get isopropyl-99% for $40 or so a bottle, at 500ml from the chemist.

The point isn't so much about "whatever works" because frankly, even water is polar enough to be used instead of ethanol.

The point is that as soon as you extract LSA it begins degrading in potency from air, and light.

So assuming it wasn't illegal and you were so inclined to do it, you'd want the best possible extraction. Of course it is, and this thread is all speculation.