Are you a believer?

[Psiloman]

So -for arguments sake- lets say that Mutant tries a high dose, and well for those insisting on tryptamines lets make it a deal : lets say 6-7 grams dried of Cubensis or some woodlovers even better.Or what about a very very hefty dose of ayahuasca ,like a big ass dose of caapi and 20-25 grams of Mimosa, is it "enough"? Oh, and even lets say he tops it up with 60...no make it 80 to be sure mg of smoked DMT. Thats hefty enough ,if phenethylamines are your thing well maybe in the ayahuasca he could throw in a hefty pedro dose or even better bridgesii...Ok, we are indeed in "pant shitting territory" , we are in place for manifestation for the weirdest most mindbogling, most "entity"fiable, most "thats what we are talking about" experience!

And then? What difference will this make? Are there any expectations of him coming back "humble" (in a way) proclaiming "You guys were RIGHT, i SAW it MYSELF and its TRUE , oh PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE the substance"? Will he come in bowing his head in shame towards the "all knowing elders"? Hardly,i'd say... And this is for numerous reasons

1)People seem to propose a big dose but in what set and setting?

2)People seem to forget that even if its an inate quality of substances like those to "make the impossible possible" someone can still discredit it if he/she is SET on it, is DETERMINED to deny it.Or if he/she is DETERMINED to accept something else, or if he/she has already embraced something else.

3)People seem to insinuate or trully believe that a big dose has an inate ability to "make a believer out of someone"

4)People seem to have a ...rather dangerous -if you ask me- belief that for what you experience first hand there can be no argument against ,whereas we all know that senses and intellect are not always "correct". Furthermore people also have the ...rather dangerous -if you keep asking me- habit of finding ways within them to devalue/cancel someones first hand experience (which we said ,many consider "utterly correct") if it does not match theirs.

So, what a big dose do to mutant? Why do you propose a big dose for him? What changes would you expect if he came back and reported from a mission like the one i describe on the entree of my post?

I keep hearing this refutal in all Mutant's threads about "he doesnt have experience" or "he didnt have big doses" and im quite tired of it. Lets see someone -for a change- tell us what this would mean apart from a stereotypical self-validating "when he sees he well be come a believer", a bit more thought out and sincere than "experience is undisputed". Lemme tell you that in Greece this mentality has an ugly brother, in "mastouria" cycles, in cycles of people that all they do is take substances 24/7 : there the guy that has done more drugs (or should i say narcotics, thats the way they use them) or has most experience is something akin to a demigod. I believe that people with 100 times (or even more) my post count will have no difficulty expanding more on the issue, and i am being sincere in this declaration!So Lets see an analysis on the subject.

Lets Discuss...Show me the money, guys!

Closemindedness comes in many colours. Even openminded people are prone ;)

Double underline that and im in! Even "forced openmindedness" can resemble closemindedness in effect. For example: Lets say one despises not only scientifism as you define it (actually from what i understant a "Cult of Science" , or "Science as a religion" - my opinion, those guys are not scientists in the true sense of the word, they are zealots-) but lets make it more interesting, lets say the person is sceptical of all science whatever wherever whoever. All good here, no probs, the only way -although i am into a science field- to take offence in it would be if i had the vested interest in it that a religion could only impose (in simpler english, which are not my mother tongue by the way : if i was a zealot). See this point though : If one dismisses science or has developed an "allergy" towards it ,there is also the case that he/she might go on the "other side". To put it simpler for example he/she might be sceptical or negatively predisposed towards a guy bringing in a paper with physical data from physical measurments in X subjects whereas he/she may be more prone or positively predisposed to accept a theory/a theorist if it is a bit "non conformist", "wacky" or not described or dismissed by science as it stands at the moment. Here keep in mind that not all geniuses are crazy,also not all crazies are geniuses ;) . Going to the "other side" of the one despised or not liked is a rather widespread human characteristic. You can see it in entheogen/psychedelic forums many times ,where people might not be on the same "military camp" with the despised group but they behave as if they where: antiprohibistionists behaving basically like prohibitionists, people unafraid of psychedelics behaving in some matters like...their parents (afraid of psychedelics) and so on and so forth. So, to get back in subject, this person might be more predisposed to accept something if someone tells him/her it came through intuition or instict rather that if someone told him/her it came through measurements especially if its "published science", "official science". But being "anticonformist" ,a bit of "wacky" or having "new theories" is not itself a guarantee of accuracy of a theory : Now ,here "scientifists" (if you allow me to use the term) go to the other side! They wont even consider a theory if its all of the above the same way an "anti-scientifist" might not even consider a theory if it sounds "officialy scientific". Ok, sometimes they might consider "the opposite side's" view but in a half-assed way or having already predetermined the outcome of the results...In other words they will simply try to refute it.

And i have to ask here : Where is the critical thinking? Critical thinking makes one not "camp" in any ideological "camp".That does not mean that the person has no opinion or no strong opinion! It simply means that he/she can reconsider or ever consider for real theories he/she would not believe in personally. I *try* to be that, because i consider it a clever path,clever in the way of "clever is the most enabling path". For example ,as a person, i seriously doubt that "extradimensional entities tell you prediction of the future". Now, if though you ,Mutant, came to to me and supported that or lets say telekinesis i might be "hehe,ok, i wanna meet your dealer, thats some nice shit you are smoking there" but i would really be up to see why you are so convinced about it. I would propose an experiment, a demonstration ,something to probe this phenomenon, first of all to see it it indeed happens (which is a whoooole chapter of conversation how we can ensure what will be determined as an objective or transubjective "Hit" or equivalent "Miss") and then probe deeper its nature. The difference? The ORIGINAL interest! A Scientifist may propse the same only wanting to disapprove you because he/she is so dead sure you are wrong that he will not for a moment dedicate himself/herself to investigate your claims. And believe me (ha!) you will feel it, you will feel that this person is simply mocking you or trying to devalue you...

Bottom line of this mini-rant : Try to always keep an open mind even with things you dislike. Try to moderate the almost erotic pull you might feel for the "opposite side" of the one you do not like , not because this is not "appropriate" (hehehehhehe!) but because this can make one put his/her guard down and lower his/her critical thinking filters. Added bonus to the above? If provocation is one's game ,this path makes them ...the most provocative possible to both sides : he/she doesnt take a side which stays "safe" from provocation, both sides (or more sides in may matters) are always under inspection and rethinking. This will make you lots of "closeminded enemies" but also some friends worth keeping which you will trully feel that they have earned your respect and admiration even though you might disagree in almost everything when you talk together! Heh, those advices are not so much towards you Mutant, although i hope you might find them interesting, its mostly a reminder towards myself ;) Humans tend to "forget" and entangled in their own bullshit way to easily and they need reminders.

Anyways, you say you have been doing fine so far, but lets see what you will do/say when you will actually be paid for being a scientist instead of studying, and that's in the future I think, no?

Hmmm Im adraid no, its not the future ,its the present ;)

Yes i am "studying" but not within books any more. Both nowadays and in the past i am working in a lab where...there is funding,there are deadlines,there is pressure,there is call for efficiency and the proof of the pie is in the eating.There are also many things,many human behaviours,lots of dogmatism that i do not like. At the moment i took a turn to see something else from simply biological systems, more into drug design and synthesis. The lab might not be solely "commercial" but there is a pressure for accepted paper submitions in journals (yup, like the ones in pubmed) , and also we send our data abroad for evaluation many times mostly for probing as new drug leads (things that could sometime in the future become medicine). Also, companies send us commercial propositions in the form "Can you make this X Y Z molecule? We pay X money for Y milligrams", and given our funding is short and the lab has many "expendable items" without money...we cannot do a lot in the same way that without money someone else might not be able to smoke,drink,eat,pay his/her mobile phone accountor do whatever would require even a hint of money to do so (even order plants online!). So we consider those offers (mostly they ask for items that big companies sell for way more or for novel molecules that a custom synthesis from Sigma Aldrich would cost a fortune). Oh and by the way...i have to perform in a way matching "commercial" performance but i dont get paid for it (if there is the notion that money makes me jump through hoops), my payment is a paper that will -propably i hope so but maybe not so much- help me later on. Thats why i am mentioning the above, to show that my "hunches" , my "weird ideas" , my "insticts" are not confined only in "Aha!" moments while reading a god-damned book, but also in a "traditionally academic/scientific" lab where there is pressure/need for funding (or should i say lack of funding) and also all the things that even i dont like (personal feuds of whose name goes in the paper yada yada and other idiotic shit).

Still, my hunches ,my weird ideas, and my insticts so far have worked, verifiable by ...machines and humans in other labs (we sent some of our work in other facilities outside the country). Also a scary thought : If we do not confine ourselves to this small lab but go in big companies or big pharma (pronounce it like big mama,in a slimy " i love big mama" way) that are full of capitalism...they "got" the meaning ,they dont care if the idea is weird or if its a huntch, they care if it works, if it delivers.Or else they miss a whole big venue of nutjobs that while they are weirdos their ideas simply work ;) -Still ,keep in mind , im not praising capitalism , but keep in mind that "weirdos that their ideas magically work" might be for capitalism the new black,the new cool,the new asset-.

Anyway, what i mean is that so far my "weird approach" (if you can call it weird) didnt get me fired,layed off or anything like that. And guess what? There are lots of weirdos around going into science fields , in my lab i have met some that ...lets say they took quite of an interest in my extracurriculum activities ;) People that do not dislike conjectures and hypothesis,dont dislike weird ideas, logical jumps/gaps,dont dislike instinct,dont dislike the combination/bonding of many gnostic fields etc etc. And i dont work in paradise nor in Utopia land, so i can assume there are more around. I think those people are a nice asset to have around. Oh and by the way? When a "logical jump" or a "weird idea" has worked they go back to see what made it work, and how we can have more of it! Weird ideas and logical gaps that dont work is something that is also around ....Sure its entertaining and i love hearing it, well you can say that psychotics sometime have weird ideas and logical jumps but...they dont quite work...:)How do you evaluate them? Is the "weirdness" factor enough,is it a guarantee?As i said above, do not dismiss logical jumps and weird ideas, but do not develop "uncoditional weirdlogicojumpophilia" either : Investigate in both cases. Diamonts can be found in a pile of shit, but also sometimes shit glitters like precious diamonds.

A rather intesting discussion is where does instict and hunches come from: Zeta Reticuli? Channeled to us by other dimensions? Subconscious evalutation of data? God? Devil? The neighbors dog called Sam?. I am undecided , i tend to thing subconscious evaluation but...lets hear some weird ideas and logical jumps ;) I am not allergic towards them ;)

Edited May 19, 2010 by Psiloman

[incognito]

what im saying is that mutant seems to believe 'visions' or 'hallucinations' are of not much importance to the psychadelic experience. thats all. how can someone say that when they have not experienced it?

i mean they do (well have for me) left a lasting impression and changed my own spirituality. when us 'see' things, in so much detail, in far more detail and definition than u will experience in this 'reality', and when those 'things' are of very spiritual significance and importance to you, that it changes the way you perceive yourself, the world around you and your concepts of the universe and what happens when u die, then i would call it significant to the psychadelic experience.

and yeah ill stand by what i said, he sounds like a man explaining how much it hurts to give birth.

fuck, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.. no need to overintellectualise this one.

[-YT-]

and yeah ill stand by what i said, he sounds like a man explaining how much it hurts to give birth.

fuck, if it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.. no need to overintellectualise this one.

 

LOL jono thats why we love ya

my god could kick your gods ass anyday!

[paradox]

um, (sorry to talk in the third person mutants...but) i get the feeling mutant recently has had a certain experience which has made him a bit disillusioned about triptamines & their potential, i remember a certain thread discussing his friends first use of mushrooms & how he seemed to have a strong expectation that the trip was going to be hardcore & confront him with some intense shit but instead he had a mellow peaceful lovely trip. it seems he has read a great deal of stuff about these things including terence mckenna, thereby developing a strong expectation about what he was about to experience ie aliens or whatever & it seems when his expectations were quashed alot of respect was lost for the people who provided the expectation.. though the fact is having a nice mellow enjoyable trip is high on the list of possibilities when taking psilocin & the degree of complexity of what you can experience is dependent on a trillion factors.

anyone who's had a few more than one experience with any one reasonably strong psychedelic, i believe will tell you that a sample size of one is definitely not enough to base your opinions about that particular chemical & it's potential on, at least not enough to enter into any kind of real meaningful discussion about it anywho...

just thoughts

[incognito]

um, (sorry to talk in the third person mutants...but) i get the feeling mutant recently has had a certain experience which has made him a bit disillusioned about triptamines & their potential, i remember a certain thread discussing his friends first use of mushrooms & how he seemed to have a strong expectation that the trip was going to be hardcore & confront him with some intense shit but instead he had a mellow peaceful lovely trip. it seems he has read a great deal of stuff about these things including terence mckenna, thereby developing a strong expectation about what he was about to experience ie aliens or whatever & it seems when his expectations were quashed alot of respect was lost for the people who provided the expectation.. though the fact is having a nice mellow enjoyable trip is high on the list of possibilities when taking psilocin & the degree of complexity of what you can experience is dependent on a trillion factors.

anyone who's had a few more than one experience with any one reasonably strong psychedelic, i believe will tell you that a sample size of one is definitely not enough to base your opinions about that particular chemical & it's potential on, at least not enough to enter into any kind of real meaningful discussion about it anywho...

just thoughts

to translate: Mutant is to much of an absolute sipper, who should harden the fuck up, and have a psychonaught sized dose of a tryptamine, instead of being a namby-pamby goat fucker of the highest degree talking about visions & hallucinations, giving his opinions, on something he hasnt experienced.

am i close paradox?

[paradox]

am i close paradox?

 

i also was gonna say 'i hope i don't come across as arrogant' but i guess as many perspectives & ways of putting things as possible might be useful in this particular instance...

[woof woof woof]

www>

Quote

Are psychs 'gateways'/'terminals' to/with/through spirit/otherwolds ? Indirectly yes!

indirectly, so what intevenes? another terminal? belief? expectations? our own minds?

Simply said, 'our illusions intervene'. They way most of us grow up to understand the world around us,... is limiting us to see other parts of reality..... psyches radically alter our perception... and therefore i.o.w. make the CHANCE available that we can step outside 'the box' for a moment and observe ourselves (observe the box from an unusual angle)..... that way we can see much clearer which 'vibes, spirits, so called other worlds' influence or are around us, that we do not usually see. So psyches are just a form of breaking the routine of perception so to speak.... just an unusual angle on our every day live. that is why breaking with any kind of routine helps you to get a different perception on yourself. this is why putting effort in breaking routines will let you lead a powerful life... oops I am starting to veer of course and ramble :-) btw,... in my opinon ,.. other worlds are just extremes of this world... they are just as valid, as the balanced reality,... but what are they usefull for??? another good question.... hehehe...

Quote

Are spirits and other worlds simply 'folklore' or are they real?

There is no unreality....(that is a double negative)....'"everything is real".They are hyper realities.

that's what my friend used to believe before his psychotic break.

sorry to hear of your friend psychotic break. just like I said before,.. those other worlds are very real,... however,.. the value to us in daily life is not much,.. especially if you have concerns/priorities like work, family, making ends meet etc. And they lose even more value when these other world perspectives do not contribute to your understanding of reality.... Your friend lost touch with the balanced version of reality.

That everything is real and that one can shift reality into what he wants... believeing and psych use was, as he thought, a good way to render desires and worldviews as reality.

if you live too much in those extreme perceptions that psyches bring about,.. then that will become your new conditioning.....so your brain chemistry is then out of balance... this is the reason people become increasingly suceptible to stay in a trip.... unless you have a condition that you are predisposed any form of mental illness. fragile or insecure people should watch out more. teenagers too! (just think of how emotionally driven teens can be. All the social pressures they can be involved in.

Quote

big doses are counter productive if you have already realized a good spiritual basis.

Interesting. Any exceptions?

actually,.. here is what I think... if you have established a solid spiritual basis,... that means you are a daily practicioner... you will find that you need less and less of psyches to get an altered perception. should you get stuck on a platau,.. iow not be progressing a small dose could help you to to oversee an obstacle in your progress.... Like should you perhaps have some serious karmic mindfunk blockage(an illusion) that is unoverseable with regular meditation....... but I doubt that will ever happen. you see,... if you are a serious meditator....and you have a blockage,.....the answer(realization) will come in time. If you dont realize it during meditation.... you will attract a situation in your daily life in which the answer will presented.... this is another way of saying "having faith in life!" Everything in good time. So if you psyches do it for you,.. then this is your way. I think the only exception is if you are a mentor to a person you are guiding spiritually,... then you can give that person a full dose.... but the mentor should stay fully focussed.... so mentor takes a small dose... because the mentor must not get caught up or go allong in the apprentice's illusions..

peace

Edited May 21, 2010 by woof woof woof

[Chiral]

[mutant]

Well first things first. The fact that you [you know who you are] dismiss any points [f.e. Psiloman's points], refuse to talk about very important , valid and interesting things mentioned and focus on me and my [in your opinion] disillusioned views is quite indicative. I mean it's quite nice to be on such a spotlight, but I didn't really aim for that. But it prooves the discussion is indeed valid, you only don't wanna discuss, cause, I think it's a religious matter.

WWW is of course the shinning exception and I thank him a lot. He doesn't agree, agreeing is not his motive, he just understands, or at least its pretty obvious he tries to - but I assure you: he does understand what you don't

Inco>

what im saying is that mutant seems to believe 'visions' or 'hallucinations' are of not much importance to the psychadelic experience. thats all. how can someone say that when they have not experienced it?

 

bollocks. you all [believers] see and read what you want to read so as to use it to attack me. I said visuals haven't been important for me, and my approach to psych experience, not for the whole mankind. The effects that psychs have had in my life, have nothing to do with the rare visuals I had. I understand it's difficult for worshippers of zigzags and other funky shit to understand that, as you have refused to acknowledge individuality in other threads too.

You say that you stopped ingesting because you got the message. Good. I doubt that. Your best experience was psilo+playing video games with a very funny friend, plus you gave a response [early in breaking the loop thread] stating that you disagree with psychs being used as self-help for conscious self-reflection, self-analysis, self-improvement, so...

so I doubt you really ever learnt to use them seriously.

how's that, believer?

paradox>>>

you too haven't been reading carefully or/and are being defensive of the precious. Would expect more than you, no problem about the third person, and no hard feelings at all..

i get the feeling mutant recently has had a certain experience which has made him a bit disillusioned about triptamines & their potential,

nope. I know his experience was a low end and as such it had many resemblances with acid/lsa trips. There were couple of differences, like the blue colours and the impressive afterglow, but by no means doesn't he think he understood psilos now. He just stated he feels more at ease with them and less afraid of the whole class now.

i remember a certain thread discussing his friends first use of mushrooms & how he seemed to have a strong expectation that the trip was going to be hardcore & confront him with some intense shit but instead he had a mellow peaceful lovely trip.

alright, here's what happened: He chose to take less, because he went with a friend after all. He would take more, say ~2,5 if he went alone, as he initially planned. He also did state that he felt like maybe a strong 'slap' might be needed or would going to work getting off the loop, so it was a part of expectations, partly, for the initial plan [at 2,5 gr].

At the last moment a friend decided he would come along, so my friend re-adjusted the plan and he probably liked the idea of bit milder first time, someone to talk to, too, so he took less with him, 1,6 gr. The resulting experience had indeed self-improving potential much more than expected, so after actually experiencing this, he thinks this particular type of low end dose might be very useful for this particular approach of his: that is, someone who knows himself quite a bit or have been into self-analysis, who knows the goals he aims.... So, the trip was successful in a much greater degree than expected. That doesn't mean this kind of trip lets you know the full spectrum of the shrooms potential. How dumb do you think I am?!??!

it seems he has read a great deal of stuff about these things including terence mckenna, thereby developing a strong expectation about what he was about to experience ie aliens or whatever & it seems when his expectations were quashed alot of respect was lost for the people who provided the expectation..

man you are completely not getting it

'Those people' didn't create any expectations, only a negative vibe of patronising and dismissing me and my points. They attacked from scratch my integrity, my knowledge and my experiences with psychs, while I was only trying to discuss, this even before the trip, even when they were supposed to encourage me, seeing I was a bit afraid/hesitant but still determined to proceed, such a fail, how can I take those people's words seriously, if they're repeatedly failing to understand what I was into and what I am still into. This loss of respect for those people isn't really a suprise: I don't really believe that people who take / who have taken psychedelic drugs know lots of stuff. As I have said before, thay are just used to using them, they have experience ingesting them. I can learn from them, and I am, but I don't think they really know their shit. Or rather, they think that their shit are just like my own, which is totally not true.

So, I really respect people's advice on cultivation and stuff like this, but as far as psych use is concerned, I don't think most of community people would know what to make of me. Thankfully, some people understand [ WWW ] , just not you.

I don't believe nor do I have any lust to wanna see aliens [not aliens the movie which is awesome, and that I would happily watch again - did the mantids look like that? If yes, count me in! ] on my trip...

Just because most guys obsess over psych for this very main reason, visuals, it doesn't mean we're all looking for an organic kaleidoscope or passage to the state were voices and presences are experienced. Apart from this, I don't think it would be easy for me to see spirits, even on high dosea, cause they simply don't exist in my mind or worldview. I can more easily see myself paranoid on big dose psych, as it happened in the past in wrong sourounding, than talking or listening to entities. Maybe in the future, I see it otherwise, but how can I take your words seriously, you don't even have a clue about what I am on to, and this after a ton of posts of mine!

though the fact is having a nice mellow enjoyable trip is high on the list of possibilities when taking psilocin & the degree of complexity of what you can experience is dependent on a trillion factors.

like with every psych of this class....

anyone who's had a few more than one experience with any one reasonably strong psychedelic, i believe will tell you that a sample size of one is definitely not enough to base your opinions about that particular chemical & it's potentia

sure, only an idiot would think so, and it's quite insulting you regard me that kind of idiot. but low dose psilo is not so much different from similar ergo-compounds

at least not enough to enter into any kind of real meaningful discussion about it anywho...

yeah? from the above replies it's pretty obvious you completely fail to understand what I am talking about. ANd I guess you are indeed experienced. SO maybe believers are those who are incapable of perfomring a meaningful discussion and can only rave about the religious state of high doses, and not much else overall?

yep. Believers just can't get it. I have made wonderfully interesting points, and it's because you're believers [read blind] you cannot see. Is there a failure on my own part too? Maybe.. So WWW is really enlightened to understand the real deal.

[mutant]

Inco, again>>>

to translate: Mutant is to much of an absolute sipper, who should harden the fuck up, and have a psychonaught sized dose of a tryptamine, instead of being a namby-pamby goat fucker of the highest degree talking about visions & hallucinations, giving his opinions, on something he hasnt experienced.

why would you think your opinion is of any value? Because you give away cacti?

You dismiss psych's therapeutical potential, you admire a 16 year old pop musician because he gets lots of teen pussy and because he got tons of money and your best experience with psilocybin was playing videogames with a funny friend. How exciting and enlightened world view! No wonder you don't appreciate their psychiatric/psychedelic/psycholytic potential, but only their religious one.

WWW>>>>

Simply said, 'our illusions intervene'. They way most of us grow up to understand the world around us,... is limiting us to see other parts of reality..... psyches radically alter our perception... and therefore i.o.w. make the CHANCE available that we can step outside 'the box' for a moment and observe ourselves (observe the box from an unusual angle)..... that way we can see much clearer which 'vibes, spirits, so called other worlds' influence or are around us, that we do not usually see. So psyches are just a form of breaking the routine of perception so to speak.... just an unusual angle on our every day live. that is why breaking with any kind of routine helps you to get a different perception on yourself. this is why putting effort in breaking routines will let you lead a powerful life... oops I am starting to veer of course and ramble :-) btw,... in my opinon ,.. other worlds are just extremes of this world... they are just as valid, as the balanced reality,... but what are they usefull for??? another good question.... hehehe...

cool, so, our illusions intervene ---> thus our perceptions begin to be less credible {IMO} if we put much value into the temporary yet so bold, intense, convincing altered state... like you said, the usefulness of psychs is giving the chance to perceive stuff in other ways, after the trip... the gain is when you are a richer person the other day and the days after that and in your life in general.

And since the other worlds don't seem to offer much in real, everyday life, maybe they're more useful to shamans, devoted believers, people of the thumbprint mentality.... hmmm or people who long for the lost eden McKenna talks.... people into other worlds maybe?? any suggestion is wanted. I am trying to figure out what would a large dose might offer me.

Another question. So do you think all people can see/speak to entities? Or is it a part of people's brain-wiring, worldviews etc. How can you distinguish between the psychotic vision and the real, genuine one?

sorry to hear of your friend psychotic break. just like I said before,.. those other worlds are very real,... however,.. the value to us in daily life is not much,.. especially if you have concerns/priorities like work, family, making ends meet etc. And they lose even more value when these other world perspectives do not contribute to your understanding of reality.... Your friend lost touch with the balanced version of reality.

'very real'.. hmmm You mean 'very real', like the paranoid voices I heard on my microdot bad trip many years ago? SO they're not useful for real life. What are the useful for?

if you live too much in those extreme perceptions that psyches bring about,.. then that will become your new conditioning.....so your brain chemistry is then out of balance... this is the reason people become increasingly suceptible to stay in a trip.... unless you have a condition that you are predisposed any form of mental illness. fragile or insecure people should watch out more. teenagers too! (just think of how emotionally driven teens can be. All the social pressures they can be involved in.

he didn't really live much in those states. He had a couple of experiences, some at high doses over a year or so. He was obviously predisposed and kept abusing, and got what he 'asked for'

the advice you give is sound. What do you think of psychosis-related diseases. Are they real, or it's totally societies stigma of a different individual? I believe it's possible for psychotics to embrace psych use and even benefit from it, in part. Which people do you think can do this? DO you believe people with psychotic tendencies are safe doing this? DO you believe a psychotic's perception is credible? In what ways can a psychotic person become his full potential in a utopian society? By being a shaman or something similar?

actually,.. here is what I think... if you have established a solid spiritual basis,... that means you are a daily practicioner... you will find that you need less and less of psyches to get an altered perception. should you get stuck on a platau,.. iow not be progressing a small dose could help you to to oversee an obstacle in your progress.... Like should you perhaps have some serious karmic mindfunk blockage(an illusion) that is unoverseable with regular meditation....... but I doubt that will ever happen. you see,... if you are a serious meditator....and you have a blockage,.....the answer(realization) will come in time. If you dont realize it during meditation.... you will attract a situation in your daily life in which the answer will presented.... this is another way of saying "having faith in life!" Everything in good time. So if you psyches do it for you,.. then this is your way. I think the only exception is if you are a mentor to a person you are guiding spiritually,... then you can give that person a full dose.... but the mentor should stay fully focussed.... so mentor takes a small dose... because the mentor must not get caught up or go allong in the apprentice's illusions..

cool mate, very interesting insight.. but, OK, if I were a mentor and at some point I judged [and the apprentice approved or consciously decided] that he could be helped by a big dose. Even if I have figured out [lets say] big doses are not for me, shouldn't I for at least once go into a bigger than normal dose, wouldn't that be more 'ethically' right, like a psychanalyst should have himself psychanalyzed before starting practice AKA doing this to others? Or you don't think such a 'baptism' is not really necessary?

**********************

Thanks a lot for feedback, I expect and hope the next wave to be even more interesting, both in reading and in replying...

Peace

[incognito]

why would you think your opinion is of any value? Because you give away cacti?

what makes u think that i believe my opinion has value??? certainly not because i give away cacti?? i do that cos i want to?? ur point??

lets break this down...

You dismiss psych's therapeutical potential

um no i dont. psychadelics ability to help connect an individual with their spirituality i believe is an extremely IMPORTANT part of anyones recovery process in becoming a much more functional, whole human being. Alot of strength is to be gained from spirituality. this is my opinion. I dont think psychadelics are going to 'fix' your problems. You have to implement what you have learned from such insight into yourself and the world around you in your day to day life. Its up to YOU. as has been said here over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again..Psychs CAN point the way. But its just that..a pointer. once the seratonins subsided it sup to YOU. I believe psychs have a myriad of theraputic potential, but i definately am no expert. Im thinking along th lines of Ibogaine treatment for addictions, but again i dont think it would CURE. more like show the way. the same could be said for aya, shrooms blah blahbitty blah.

my point is, psychs have the potential, but in the end its up to the individual to make his or her own CHOICE. be it a more informed choice through insight from the psychadelic experience, well so be it.

on the other hand i have spoken before how i can see psychadelics doing HARM. do u want me to go through that AGAIN.? someone with suicidal tendancies dumping a load of psilocybin in a set and setting not conducive to a theraputic effect would be disastrous! (im sure in some cases at least) the same could be said im thinking for other psychadelics.

, you admire a 16 year old pop musician because he gets lots of teen pussy and because he got tons of money and your best experience with psilocybin was playing videogames with a funny friend. How exciting and enlightened world view! No wonder you don't appreciate their psychiatric/psychedelic/psycholytic potential, but only their religious one.

i dont admire him. i saluted him.i see why theres so much hate directed at him. (psychs can do that) having been a horny as hell teenage male im gonna call u a complete liar if you yourself wouldnt have traded a week out of ur life to have access to the pussy he does!!!!!

if you wouldnt have im gonna call u a testosteroneless pussy who should be punted from the hetero male domain for ever!!! i remind u i said id only swap a week with him! not a lifetime! but fuk enough about justin fuking beiber.

yes, some of my

best ever experiences wa splaying rapala fishing on psilocybin with my funny friend. i have reports spread through this forum so kiss my ass if u think this was my sole 'favourite' experience that has come to mind.and again, an insight was found yeah? erm dont take life so seriously...huh?

to translate: Mutant is to much of an absolute sipper, who should harden the fuck up, and have a psychonaught sized dose of a tryptamine, instead of being a namby-pamby goat fucker of the highest degree talking about visions & hallucinations, giving his opinions, on something he hasnt experienced.

as for hanging up the phone cos ive got the message. well. i dunno. u got me there.

i dont feel compelled to take psychs. they are ALL around me. im kinda quite happy in my own skin and my place in the universe right now. how about you?

Edited May 21, 2010 by incognito

[ThunderIdeal]

fully. dunno why everyone continues to entertain this.

edit: what? i was replying to different stuff, dunno what happened.

Edited May 21, 2010 by ThunderIdeal

[mutant]

my point was that you don't know what I am talking about and where I am coming from

and this is getting very boring, because you seem to get some 1% of what I am actually saying

but you [and others too] pretend to have understood.

a careful reader will figure out who argues and who parrots, and what are the two sides are saying, and who is saying over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over the same shit. A believer votes for 'yes' and 'mutant sucks' and then adds "I expected more people vote for "mutant sucks" " because it's a football match for him and he's already in one side.

r u a fucking football fan?

i dont feel compelled to take psychs

but I should feel compelled to take the dose you recommend ?!?!??!

.....just because you say it?

[incognito]

r u a fucking football fan?

depends what football your talking? i love watching top grade soccer, especially the sth american countries, so much skill! AFL nah but i appreciate their athleticism.

NRL...nahh not anymore. the passion has gone out of it. bunch of namby pamby meterosexuals if u ask me. Bring back tobacco sponsored RL. THAT was an entertaining game!! cant watch 10mins of this modern version.

american football..nah.

however that greek football game, you know, where the referees carry swords!??? now THATS an entertaining game!! it is greek innit? or italian? i dunno...

how about you?

jesus.h.christ maaaaaan. i was only tryin to help u see the ignorance in dispelling people who take seriously visions/hallucinations as worshippers of zigzags and other funky shit without experiencing it yourself???

whatever mutant.. whatever u reckon. your right.

Edited May 21, 2010 by incognito

[Psiloman]

A small addition to everyone and to mutant included : Warning ,English is not my mother tongue and even if it was i am afraid that what i am going to say is not going to completely "carry over" (as i think points of other of my messages did not really carry over or resonate).

If we assume that thevalues and notions one has can be expressed withing the psychedelic experience ,in the way that the values and worldviews we hold generally influence us as persons, propably there is nothing for mutant to gain from a big dose, and there is nothing for others to discover (if discovery can have as an element the contradiction of standing/already accepted views) if they already believe in a set value system. Simply the experience will be forthe most part self-validating ,unless something goes stray/bad.

Now , the above has nothing to do with big doses! Hang on ,didnt i just mention big doses? I did, but the concept of the big dose is irrelevant to the core issue i am trying to put forth : That of a mentality mainframe that all our experience (withing psychedelia or outside of) is perceived.

For example the words and phrases people use,is indicative of what they think on the matter. If people talk of spirits and entities then that where their mind and heart is. If Mutant talks about classes of psychedelics ,he has his mind set on them ,on "what kind of beast a substance is is determined by its class"...

So even talking about those matters in an extensive (over the years) and continuous way, colours the experience via preconceived expectations.If mutant sees "believers and non believers", "classes", "theists", and feels negatively predisposed towards them and if others see a "sacrilegious","inexperienced" person or "denialists of the One and Only Truth -their Truth-, then the more both/all sides find arguments online to support and strengthen their standing views the more all those people stay caged within them. The way some people deny recreational use (which i do not admire it ,but i do not crusade against it,let em do what they want,i will do what i want on me) and the way some people deny anything else apart from recreational use, themes common in online communities, impose self-restraints of the experience and colour it.

Even if you stuffed your favorite dose of favorite substance down mutant's throat not much would there be to gain : by strengthening his beliefs of the online community and "kinds of users" and "classes of substances" ,he would just have an experience ,undoubtedly strong but well within his paradigm, with no paradigm shift. The same would happen of course to you. Even if you fed a "straight edge-just say no to drugs" parent (heh lets bring in the big guns) ,that parent would have an experience that fits and is defined within his/her "straight edge-just say no to drugs" confinement: the parent might say he/she was "slipped drugs", "went crazy","saw the absurdity of it hence now knows even better why to say no" etc etc . No paradigm shift.

Distance yourselves from possible personal differences for a bit and think on it. Its a rather interesting point, its a battle sometimes not to let oneself have calcified worldview.

[woof woof woof]

I totally understand where Mutant is comming from! I even know that mutant knows most of the answers himself to all the questions he sometimes asks. It's all just for conversations sake. I just add my opinion for others to read.

With that said,... i think this is a great topic. All it needs is the supportive and refining opinions of the SAB community....

Mutant bro,... all I think is that you need is to be a little more focussed on what it is that you are saying or asking to avoid being hassled over little things.

I totally appreciate Mutant's contributions. I can see that he has a good insight of very fundamental spiritual matters. That is why I agree with him on many of the things he says.

Edited May 22, 2010 by woof woof woof

[paradox]

yeah woofs got it down pat, didn't mean to let ya down mutant, i probably did jump on the bandwagon when i wasn't paying attention

if you look at that post before incog hooked onto it i was just giving a perspective on something i felt i had a vague insight into, i dunno if it's at all useful, but i was hoping my comment might at least shed light in the direction of something that might be a piece of the picture...

there was a bit of an arrogant tone in that post though that i don't mean & i think everyones perspective in these discussions has been damn interesting... on that note, this is sweet:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO7tGOr2NU0

[The Dude]

whats with the 20 questions? what do you think will happen if i have a big dose? Just eat the fucking mushrooms! If you're still wondering eat some more! You're like the guy reading up on how to swim online and asking others of this mysterious thing called water that you hope to one day venture into.

Yeah so swimming is like totally awesome! It's a little bit frightening at first cause you might sink, believe me this scares many to not even get their feet wet, but if you shift your arms and legs around in just the right sort of flow you find its actually quite easy to swim and really enjoyable.

If you've got goggles you can see so much amazing coral and marine life, they're really indescribable, i could try but you wouldn't believe it, the way everything just shimmers, the awe of natures creation through unbelievable combinations of colours and shapes, the tranquility and reverence and praise to god and jah-bless-ness of being there to witness this moment.

Psychedelic Drugs, when too much is just enough

Edited May 22, 2010 by The Dude

[ThunderIdeal]

watch out dude, you are entering psychadelic theist territory here mate. you know what that means? infinitely boring back and forth until you admit that you are a closed-minded mckenna lover and alcohol rules.

[The Dude]

Meh

Edited May 23, 2010 by The Dude

[drugo]

Yeah so swimming is like totally awesome! It's a little bit frightening at first cause you might sink, believe me this scares many to not even get their feet wet, but if you shift your arms and legs around in just the right sort of flow you find its actually quite easy to swim and really enjoyable.

If you've got goggles you can see so much amazing coral and marine life, they're really indescribable, i could try but you wouldn't believe it, the way everything just shimmers, the awe of natures creation through unbelievable combinations of colours and shapes, the tranquility and reverence and praise to god and jah-bless-ness of being there to witness this moment.

 

[bℓσωηG]

 

 

If you've got goggles you can see so much amazing coral and marine life, they're really indescribable, i could try but you wouldn't believe it, the way everything just shimmers, the awe of natures creation through unbelievable combinations of colours and shapes, the tranquility and reverence and praise to god and jah-bless-ness of being there to witness this moment.

fuck yeah snorkelling on mushies is the bomb! haha... also snow boarding on mushies is sick! (in a good way) man i'll never forget flying down the from the summit of mount triple cone in full untracked ''purple'' pow pow (snow) yes purple snow ,laughing all the way to the bottom ,fully sick bro

[drugo]

It seems to me highly improbable that everything we identify within ourselves as specifically human -- the human imagination, human spirituality, the full range of human emotions, moral aspiration, aesthetic intelligence, the discernment and creation of narrative significance and meaningful coherence, the quest for beauty, truth, and the good -- suddenly appeared ex niholo (from nothing/nowhere) in the human being as an accidental and more or less absurd ontological singularity in the cosmos. Is not this assumption, which in one form or another still implicitly pervades most modern and postmodern thought, nothing other than the unexamined residue of the Cartesian monotheistic ego? Is it not much more plausible that human nature, in all its creative multidimensional depths and heights, emerges from the very essence of the cosmos, and that this human spirit is the spirit of the cosmos itself as inflected through us and enacted by us? Is it not more likely that the human intelligence in all its creative brilliance is ultimately the cosmos's intelligence expressing its creative brilliance? And that the human imagination is ultimately grounded in the cosmic imagination? And, finally, that this larger spirit intelligence and imagination all live withing and act through the self-reflective human being who serves as a unique vessel and embodiment of the cosmos -- creative, unpredictable, fallible, self-transcending, unfolding the whole, integral to the whole...

~Richard Tarnes Cosmos and Psyche p.492

Edited May 24, 2010 by telepathogen

[woof woof woof]

It seems to me highly improbable that everything we identify within ourselves as specifically human -- the human imagination, human spirituality, the full range of human emotions, moral aspiration, aesthetic intelligence, the discernment and creation of narrative significance and meaningful coherence, the quest for beauty, truth, and the good -- suddenly appeared ex niholo (from nothing/nowhere) in the human being as an accidental and more or less absurd ontological singularity in the cosmos. Is not this assumption, which in one form or another still implicitly pervades most modern and postmodern thought, nothing other than the unexamined residue of the Cartesian monotheistic ego? Is it not much more plausible that human nature, in all its creative multidimensional depths and heights, emerges from the very essence of the cosmos, and that this human spirit is the spirit of the cosmos itself as inflected through us and enacted by us? Is it not more likely that the human intelligence in all its creative brilliance is ultimately the cosmos's intelligence expressing its creative brilliance? And that the human imagination is ultimately grounded in the cosmic imagination? And, finally, that this larger spirit intelligence and imagination all live withing and act through the self-reflective human being who serves as a unique vessel and embodiment of the cosmos -- creative, unpredictable, fallible, self-transcending, unfolding the whole, integral to the whole...

~Richard Tarnes Cosmos and Psyche p.492

 

So in a nutshell perhaps...."We are just the product of the universe trying to understand itself".

haha Blowng ... snorkling on mushies!!!!

Edited May 24, 2010 by woof woof woof

[holymountain]

nice one telepathogen. i just finished reading 'cosmos and psyche' the other day. an amazing book. a fucking amazing book. very dense but well worth making your way through it. great quote from it.

if the beings are illusions its only because this world is an illusion too and the only truth is that we are all one consciousness. innerspace and outerspace are one and the same. as above so below.