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Teotzlcoatl

Is there any evidence of traditional entheogenic use of Argyreia?

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I can't even really figure out where Argyreia comes from...

I know it was traditionally used in medicine in India... but not as a psychoactive as far as I know.

My main question is... Is there evidence of the entheogenic use of Argyreia before the 1960s?

http://www.erowid.org/plants/hbw/hbw_timeline.php

http://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Hawaiian_baby_woodrose

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I can't even really figure out where Argyreia comes from...

I know it was traditionally used in medicine in India... but not as a psychoactive as far as I know.

My main question is... Is there evidence of the entheogenic use of Argyreia before the 1960s?

http://www.erowid.org/plants/hbw/hbw_timeline.php

http://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Hawaiian_baby_woodrose

 

in the 'ethnobotany of shamanism' lecture by terrence mckenna he states that there is no recorded human usage of Argyreia nervosa... apart from hawaiian surfers in the 1960's. if i remember correctly it was introduced into hawaii from polynesia (?)... or maybe it was india as you say. schultes and hofmann's 'botany and chemistry of hallucinogens' only gives passing reference to HBWR, then poses the question 'why have no native people outside of mexico used the morning glory seeds?'.

i think the answer is either (a) they did a very long time ago and the tradition has died out, or (B) there were better entheogens in the areas where these grow (ie psilocybin mushrooms) so the people didn't feel the need to go through all the undesirable side effects associated with HBRW.

that being said, i have heard of people having mega trips on 13+ seeds and afterwards they were convinced this must have had a history of human usage due to the richness of the visions that was 'more humanistic' than lsd,,,,

does anyone have any good information on getting a reliable and clean experience off any of the morning glory seeds? how did the maya go about using them? there are so many different types and so many different dosages that i get a bit confused with them some times...

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So there is basically no recorded entheogenic use of Argyreia before the 1960s?

In Snu's "Garden of Eden" he notes that shamans in Nepal might have used Argyreia traditionally as an entheogen...

But I really can't find any info on the traditional use of Argyreia as an entheogen.

Let me know if y'all come up with anything.

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I highly doubt that shamans in nepal would be using a plant that grows on some islands in the pacific

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I think that "Hawaiian Baby Woodrose" is actually native to India.

And Christian Rätsch and Claudia Mueller-Ebeling, in their superb book

"Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalaya" recorded some shamanic use of

the plant which might, or might not, be ancient, in Nepal.

At least one of the Newari shamans they talked to knew about it...

Proving ancient use is probably impossible, emphasis on "proving".

It may well have been used.

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I highly doubt that shamans in nepal would be using a plant that grows on some islands in the pacific

Actually the origin of Argyreia nervosa is ambiguous.

I believe at least one strain of Argyreia nervosa is native to India.

I think that "Hawaiian Baby Woodrose" is actually native to India.

India and the surrounding area (a large surrounding area), but I really haven't been able to pin anything down.

And Christian Rätsch and Claudia Mueller-Ebeling, in their superb book

"Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalaya" recorded some shamanic use of

the plant which might, or might not, be ancient, in Nepal.

At least one of the Newari shamans they talked to knew about it...

Proving ancient use is probably impossible, emphasis on "proving".

It may well have been used.

Thanks for posting.

So it IS probable that Argyreia nervosa has a long history of human usage, no?

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afaik they arent the same plant

img1094hn7.jpg

got these seeds a while back, was told thats what they were referred to as

never got any to germ though

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Thanks for posting that.

So they next question is...

Are there distinct strains of Argyreia nervosa?

I have heard that a strain called Argyreia nervosa var. nervosa is the most potent and best suited for entheogenic use... is this true?

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if you check out hte USDA database they have merged nervosa and speciosa, so now there is A. nervosa nervosa and a. nervosa speciosa. i am not honestly sure if that relates to the old world vs nw world seeds....i have never grown out those indian seeds.

im sure it is at least possible they were tested for some kind of use by some group somewhere before 1960, but to any documented continued use for divination type purposes i have not heard much of anything...

i am vey curious why people seem to think the hawaiian is better though. much of the online vendor supply comes from asia (china, and se asia) and they are used as an enthegeon. makes me wonder if its a genetic thing an they may have been evolving for a little bit in hawaii (or....) and...ya...random theories with nothing to back them up.

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maybe utse,torsten has made a comment i vaugely recall regarding comparative effects of nervosa and speciosa...

t s t .

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Argyreias come from India. There is indeed traditional therapeutic use, not of the seeds but of the root, not for entheogenesis, it was about some other therapeutic thing [antinflammatory??].

Kalika, most people don't much like 'magic' vine seeds for a variety of reasons, they are not colorful/intense enough for people who like to trip for colors and patterns, they bring on sedation, nausea and other physical effects plus you cannot take a heroic dose on them, among others...

IMO, these plants are close to ideal for psychoanalytic sessions, introspection, self-exploring, [for the individual who knows what he is doing of course], but this is definitely not the most popular idea around....

RE: planter

IMO the seeds on the right are not argyreia, not nervosa anyway...

I have planted two different strains with obvious morphologic differences, both from active seeds. So yeah, there are different strains.

Edited by mutant

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yea i wish some grew

but like i said, thats just what i was told they were, only got 3 tried to grow them all but nothing....

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Alright so it seems that the strain of the plant plays a fairly large role in the entheogenic effects of Argyreia.

Thanks for the info.

I wish I knew of somebody that had the good strain for sure.

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most people don't much like 'magic' vine seeds for a variety of reasons, they are not colorful/intense enough for people who like to trip for colors and patterns, they bring on sedation, nausea and other physical effects plus you cannot take a heroic dose on them, among others...

 

so do the mexican morning glories, Rivea corymbosa et al, bring the same undesirable side effects or are they cleaner than HBWR? I know they have to be taken in much larger quantites - does this lead to a large concentration of non-LSA compounds in the dose?

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i have yet to have any unpleasant side effects from using hbwr seeds whatsoever,which surprises me after reading all the storys of others experiences.i suggest removing not just the really furry stuff but all the brown coating completly aswell.then powdering with a mortar and pestal and soaking in a glass of water with the juice of half a lemon for 1 hour.then discard the powder/silt at the bottom of the glass and drink the water.

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IMO, these plants are close to ideal for psychoanalytic sessions, introspection, self-exploring, [for the individual who knows what he is doing of course], but this is definitely not the most popular idea around....

I agree with this comment. Exactly what I found, too. I found it good for exploring the physical introverse, too; for some reason I felt - even if it was only imagined - like I could kind of control regions of my body to an extent. Kind of like a great psychosomatic tool.

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some research has showwn that various ergines are in various parts of the seed. i cant remember off the top of my head which alk is in which part, i will look it up. butit seems one could theoretically seperate the pieces....be a time consuming task though!

it has also been shown that individuals vary a lot in the susceptibility to the fungus that colonize and suggested produce the ergines. plants from teh same seed batch and innoculated have been shown with none while its brothers and sisters may have lots.

i am not sure about the "indian strain" but i suspect there may be something environmental. i have wondered about favourable conditions for teh fungus being a large factor in potency. but have not seen any such study so its all just random ideas.

so do the mexican morning glories, Rivea corymbosa et al, bring the same undesirable side effects or are they cleaner than HBWR?

i believe that those published reports of 13, 20 etc doses of turbina are simply wrong. as much as i love Schultes work, there is something very wrong and/or missing with his assumptions. there is the thought the translation of teh words is being confused, but we could expect Schultes to be very good at decoding and identifying plants like datura and mg. but still soemthign is wrong, maybe it is placebo affect or beliefs playign a role.

but it seems 100+ is needed around these parts. tests show that turbina has lower levels of various alks than ipomoa, so it is weaker theoretically. when you get to the higher doses of turbina, they are not so visual and "mind fuck"it seems to me. but they DO make you sick at higher doses...very sick (whole crushed seed consumed, not extract)

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it has also been shown that individuals vary a lot in the susceptibility to the fungus that colonize and suggested produce the ergines. plants from teh same seed batch and innoculated have been shown with none while its brothers and sisters may have lots.

Wait... so your saying the seeds themselves are not psychoactive but there is a fungus that grows on them/in them that is?

Or are you talking about something else entirely?

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ffs teotz, do you read anything outside of your own threads that you create?

Have you seriously not heard this concept before? is it not your "ethnobotanical duty" (Teotz 2010) to know this already?

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GingaNinja , lol!

Teotz, I haven't picked on you for a long time right?

I wish I knew of somebody that had the good strain for sure.

is it going to be you next bullshit story like true blue peruv, lost peyotes, white peyote, the holy trinity and the like? Go hunt some pigs instead

THE good strain.... What makes you think there is a single good strain? Man, some people never learn, that's for sure!

I found it good for exploring the physical introverse, too

There's a plan in my mind for the future, next-time-HBWR I fill the tub with hot water, jumb in and do my introspection there, I sense some physical thing too in my experiences, albeit not as somatical as you describe.

Kalika>

people around seem to recognise differences in the experience with the 3 types of vines. But they don't seem to agree on which is better, I have personally read about all of the 3 being preferable to the others. I only have experience with HBWR. I think Turbina is supposed to be the more different one, I have a feeling it might be in a good way, but that's only informed guessing .

They're not good candidates for a heroic doses because on very high doses there are side effects that might even be pretty harmful to the health [vasoconstriction] even in dangerous levels.

Also, you can do some TEKs to reduce nausea and physical effects, even turn them into a more energetic euphoric and more colourful experience. f.e. mint tea, CWE with sweet wine, scraped seed, unripe seeds. Lots of info about than on the net.

I know they have to be taken in much larger quantites

irrelevant.

ipomoea=300~600 , HBWR=4~12, Rivea=40~120

HBWR is definately easier to do and succeed in archieving desired dose

Turbinas are the least explored of all

Edited by mutant

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ipomoea=300~600 , HBWR=4~12, Rivea=40~120

HBWR is definately easier to do and succeed in archieving desired doe

Turbinas are the least explored of all

 

well....they are nto so seldomly explored. around here they have been explored a LOT. on higher doses of 200-300 (cant believe was stupid enough to try that again!!!) there is a very very powerful mind trip and body trip kinda. not sure how to explain it, i have never been good at words. but one can saying that huge cramps, massive puking, so hard your ass hole is barely controlled (sit on toilet and hold a bucket, tis the only way....). its not an enjoyable experience. that said those are whole seeds crushed and soaked in water, held like a quid in the mouth (ewww) for 30 mins and swallowed.

in my opinion the main 3 are broken down liek this:

Turbina trip = people that are into meditation and inner ________. good for soul searching kinda stuff.

HBWR = people more into "trippy man"

MG = people more into "trippy man" and dont mind a gut load of nasty.

though different i agree turbina is much more so than the other 2, those 2 seem a little more related...but people vary as well, so it isnt fair to narrow them down as such probably.

never done the mint ones, but played with water, alcohol (ethanol) and wine extracts and when it comes to turbina found little difference in any of it. fresh vs old also found little difference...seems it probabyl has more to do with parent plants and presumably their relation to the funky fungus. that and seed dose + individuals sensitivity. thats what i think.

Wait... so your saying the seeds themselves are not psychoactive but there is a fungus that grows on them/in them that is?

teo, as the theory goes. there is a fungus, not unlike that lovely lsd grass lover, it lives on the stems/leaves of various plants. it is thought they they somehow produce the ergolines (as plants are not known to create them themselves) and they translocate to the plant and end up in the end in the seeds, or rather certain parts of the seeds. so yes, the plants have these chemicals, but they are thought not to produce them, the fungus does. there is some good science to back up these theories, but i dont think it is at the proven stage yet....

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ipomoea=300~600 , HBWR=4~12, Rivea=40~120

please note that these numbers I gave are not recommendations or anything, just what I have more or less concluded from what people report on the net, I have read quite a lot of reports.

kada, interesting... you also find the teks don't change the experiences of the other 2, mg, hbwr?

I think you should also have unripe turbina seeds from seed pod tested. The reports from unripe hbwr are quite positive.

Also, have you experimented on a single strain, or you have tried others too?

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please note that these numbers I gave are not recommendations or anything, just what I have more or less concluded from what people report on the net, I have read quite a lot of reports.

agreed, but the turbina reports i find faulty interesting. and i truly wonder if people are TRULY getting results at 40 seed type doses or read that they should and think that they are...which brings belief into it, which happens in a lot of scenarios "traditional" or not. not a bad thing, just a reality that we mentally change our outlook on a substance from sheer want.

you also find the teks don't change the experiences of the other 2, mg, hbwr?

not between the 3 teks i mentioned. have not tried the mint ones though...would really like to but never seem to get around to it.

I think you should also have unripe turbina seeds from seed pod tested. The reports from unripe hbwr are quite positive.

roger. unripe, flowers, leaves, buds, swelling ovaries, fresh seeds, freshly dried seeds, old seeds up to 8 years etc...not a whole lot of difference found to be perfectly honest. though the older seeds did seem to need more (not THAT much more), they were also from a different source, so who really knows...

Also, have you experimented on a single strain, or you have tried others too?

many seeds from many countries, not just my own...again not a huge variation to be honest...but none have done much of anything in me noggin when less than 100...but never tried OZ seed....

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i have been thinking of this thread for quite a while, and at times, i think, i felt like supporting teotz a bit about what is going on here.

i'm sure that many people reading this thread where not aware that it's likely to be a fungus which causes HBWR's activety, so teotz's lack of knowledge and remarks, probably came quite handy in making other people aware of this finding.

teotz, has changed, and is causing far less comotion this day's, i think it's time for us (and you mutant) to upgrade our behavior towards this member a bit more.

one approach towards a situation like this, would be a dose of good humor mixed in lovingly with our critisism of another member.

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I could be wrong but i think i saw refrence to a native QLD argeria spp over at herbalistics if australian aboriginals had used this species (or any other plant for that matter) there would be no record of this as there was no established written language and spoken knowledge was kinda mutilated over time.

and im sure if this plants seed are employed in ayurevedic practice there would have been a few sadus playing around with dosage :drool2:

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