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mutant

Psychedelic to break a loop

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mutant i don't understand what the big deal about my last post was.

we are talking about psychedelics to break a loop. i said that the earlier trips are the most useful for doing this.

i said it's not necessary to go beyond them.

i think that was a totally valid thing to add to the thread and good advice relative to the topic. I'm not trying to start shit so get off the defensive.

i have a couple of questions regarding your statements about the dangers of psychedelics.

The dangers of psychedelic is a huge matter. I consider my self an expert on the subject, lol, I have a whole paper in my head, probably gonna write it some time.

But, the trauma they can induce during a bad trip, probably capable of inducing a post traumatic disorder at worse, or preventing one from experimenting carelessly at best, is a serious enough reason to underline the danger, also the danger of inducing a psychotic break to a person with psychotic tendencies.

As an expert on the subject what evidence do you have to suggest that psychedelics are capable of inducing a post traumatic disorder?

How do you see the threat of psychosis as any different to smoking weed (which does have links to psychosis)?

Are you concerned that smoking weed may induce psychosis?

Finally, I'm sorry to hear about your friend that became psychotic as a result of using psychedelics. I'd be interested to know more details about what caused the psychosis. e.g how frequent was use? what doses? which psychedelics? was the friend a user of any other drugs?

the stuff you posted on Stanislav Grof was good. This guy is the authority on psychedelic therapy and I can't recommend reading his books enough. Particularly 'The Cosmic Game'.

For anyone wishing to use psychedelics to break loops, habits or to bring about change I strongly urge them to look into the methods that Grof has pioneered. Actually reading his stuff pretty much answers everything in this thread anyway...

Edited by holymountain

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meh shutup incog :)

Edited by incognito

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meh shutup incog :)

 

yeah me too... :wacko:

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Ha ha ha

this topic is fucking hilarious. I've resisted posting until now, just been sitting back, relaxing and enjoyed the old lady bickering.

Mutant, my suggestion is read "Zhuan Falun". I read this book about 7 years ago and it was more eye opening in terms of self analysis than DMT, psilocybin, LSD, you name it. Don't get me wrong, I think these compounds are all amazing teachers and tools for self analysis but...

....this book is what brought me out of a long term ************ lifestyle. I read it and just WANTED to get my life in order. 1 month after I read it, I met my wife to be, happy ever after blah blah blah.

Take what you will.... pot over-use is a hard habit to break, best of luck.

p.s. Mutant sucks

Edited by Rabaelthazar

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No big deal about that last post, apart from it offered nothing new to the discussion. What's the deal? It would be great if you apologised for repeatedly implying I don't know what I am talking about, or that since you keep coming to discuss, to admit there was some potential about what is discussed here, but it's not big deal, I am glad with the points/questions you now offer and with discussing.

thoughts about psychedelics and their dangers, probably offtopic here....

As an expert on the subject what evidence do you have to suggest that psychedelics are capable of inducing a post traumatic disorder?

Heh, I mentioned that as one of the worse and rare possibilities, but isn't that obvious? Are you objecting? A bad trip can be lived as a trauma, that's for sure. In the worst and most intense and horrible of the cases the trauma can be rendered into a PTSD, no? Just basic data and knowledge, no need to provide evidence, don't you think? I also believe psychs can help heal/ease a PTSD :)

How do you see the threat of psychosis as any different to smoking weed (which does have links to psychosis)?

I feel that psychedelics, in certain occasions can do harm even with single/few doses, especially big dose for sensitive/uninformed first timers while with cannabis you propably have to start using more often to cause some harm and you actually see warning signs. Also, a cannabis 'trip' [smnoked] is far less intense from a psych trip, so even a bad cannabis trip is more likely to warn about further use than induce an episode in first trial, wheareas a 12 hour acid bad trip could bring up a psychotic break if it get too tense.

Of course, cannabis is more easy to abuse, so I am not saying in any way that psychs are more dangerous related with psychosis than cannabis. I can also admit that cannabis is very often present in many drug-induced disorder as a co-factor.

It always has to do with the person in question, and histories, in the end..

Are you concerned that smoking weed may induce psychosis?

I am not concerned, I am sure that weed is seriously NO-NO for people with psychotic tendencies. Although some seem to be able to use it, in moderation . But no doubt weed can catalyze the appearance of many kind of mental illness in both neurotic and psychotic situations.

I don't believe smoking cannabis can cause psychosis, but I do believe combos of different drugs can create paranoid/psychotic symptoms even in healthy individuals, f.e. large~normal dose psych, wrong setting and lots of weed.

Finally, I'm sorry to hear about your friend that became psychotic as a result of using psychedelics. I'd be interested to know more details about what caused the psychosis. e.g how frequent was use? what doses? which psychedelics? was the friend a user of any other drugs?

he caused this to himself, he is the first one to blame, not the drugs. Second to his own responsibility were the ideas which he believed that kept him blind to what was coming. Anyways, he didn't smoke weed, didn't like it, it made him feel strange and paranoid. He had some issues and hoped/believed that some kind of psychedelic therapy [large doses, lots of belief] could cure f.e. his psychosomatical disorder, something with the stomach . He was a shy guy, only got see him in person 4 or 5 times before this happened, he lives in another city.

Anyways, in a 7 month period he did

*2 acid blotters , first, good experience he now says that he should have stopped all use there

*after a month, 3 blotters , same setting, not so good

*after 2 months, ridicoulous decision, aya [harmaloid extract + m.hotilis] and 4 blotters of acid. not good. says he didn't much feel the aya. but 4-5 hours passed before he took the blotters. paranoia very present, difficulty with sleepd, difficult experience

he ceases a bit after this to 'integrate', actually there was nothing to integrate IMO, it was only a fucked up trip.

This heavy trip was supervised by a person I deeply respect his knowledge and opinion, he's the one that got me into the ethno thing actually. He doesn't believe in spirits, but he is more into the big dose thing himself and generally supports it - for individuals that know what they're doing.

anyway onto the taker

4-5 months after that disaster trip he did couple of psilo shrooms, mild dose 2gram or something, had a nice time. From then on I understood there was something wrong. He talked about residual effects which he desrcibed as not bad, but I didn't like it from back then, never told him anything then though, so as not to prepossess him. he had residual visuals and residual tripping feeling. he stopped talking to me after that talk

We didn't talk for over 6 months after this at all on msn, I suppose he was embarassed because he deeply knew he had fucked it up and he knew I had warned him about his believer approach - or he was having so nice time with his politically incorrect buddies so he needn't have our patronising on what we might regard as wrong on his part. Anyway he had some half blotter and some cannabis smokes during this period.

Finally, a week before going to some psychedelic trance festival abroad, he did speed [the final strike that it] .

The psychotic episode occured abroad, 8-9 later than that last speed use. His parents flew there to get him.

I can see speed was the determining factor to let it loose, but I strongly believe that this psychedelic theism prevented him from seeing the warning signs for many months before. He took the warning signs as positive, as 'it's really happening man!' He was having messiah ideas and shit. It was a long period that he had entered the pre-psyhcotic pedriod, that's how I see it anyway, and could not see it coming. Because he was already under the psychotic spell.

Anyways thats the story.

Foton give me feedback mate

Another thing. Grof is great. But there's no need to stick to a single man ideas, THE authority. I have only read some abstracts from other books about his reasearch, he is indeed regarded as one of the best. But it's nice to see other ones.

There's a greek psychiatrist that used lsd, psilocin and ketamine in therapy, not so famous...

http://www.kafkalides.com/

check Athanasios Kafkalides

Edited by mutant
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Just basic data and knowledge, no need to provide evidence, don't you think?

no. as an expert i would expect evidence from you to back up your claims.

Another thing. Grof is great. But there's no need to stick to a single man ideas, THE authority.

good point. he is AN authority. you should do more than just read excerpts though try reading a whole book.

interesting story about your friend. sounds like a complex range of issues that contributed. restates the points about making sure you have correct set and setting and also that you leave plenty of time to integrate between experiences.

honestly i believe your questions were answered within the first two pages. lots of people had good answers and good advice. everything since has been on and off topic. no doubt helped by our little arguments that seem to spread across the whole site.

would be great if you apologised for repeatedly implying I don't know what I am talking about

i'm sorry for suggesting that you maybe have a bit more experience with psychedelics before you tell people what is and what isn't and start swearing your head off at them.

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no. as an expert i would expect evidence from you to back up your claims.

Any expert on analysis of cause and causation in human beings behaviour wouldn't seriously open a rational/scientific arguement with a person who dismisses rationalism and common sense.

Instead, I am waiting for your objections, if any.

you should do more than just read excerpts though try reading a whole book.

You should stop trying to tell people what you'd like them to do. It doesn't look at all enlightened. Didn't you learn anything in hyperspace?

i'm sorry for suggesting that you maybe have a bit more experience with psychedelics before you tell people what is and what isn't and start swearing your head off at them.

good. You'd better start accepting other people's opinions, even if you disagree with them, as well as stop distorting them so as to present the opposite opinion like ignorant, especially when you yourself cannot present anything else than a cult of believers and McKennas fans with sheep mentality which are having common dellusions.

Tryptamine chauvinists, a subpart of psychedelic theists... For tryptamine's [read god] sake , even McKenna admits not knowing what this other really is.

our little arguments that seem to spread across the whole site.

you don't seem to like it... you make it sound like a leakage, lol. I like to see it more like "now we're fucking talking" :)

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You'd better start accepting other people's opinions, even if you disagree with them, as well as stop distorting them so as to present the opposite opinion like ignorant, especially when you yourself cannot present anything else than a cult of believers and McKennas fans with sheep mentality which are having common dellusions.

ahh mutey...you're right. what was i thinking having my own opinion? especially one based on experience.

i should accept other people's opinions even if i don't agree with them?

sure thing!

have fun smoking grass and drinking booze and telling us how it is. it was a pleasure to speak with someone who is an 'expert on the dangers of psychedelics' i really learnt a lot (of shit) from you.

i must be off now as my planet needs me.

oh and the elves gave me a very important message to pass on to you:

:wave-finger:

Edited by holymountain

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i can here a new song being played on JJJ reals soon......

ps im still waitin to hear Roses Are Gods Nitrous!!

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I can relate to your story Mutant... seeing aspects in my self and in a few friends. One of which was clinically diagnosed as having a messiah complex.. "I thought I was jesus." ... i told him, yeah man you are jesus!

Seems like you gotta act normal so they dont throw a net over you... but fuck, ... there is a DISCONNECT! No spirit in western culture. We are all divine beings! maybe you need to be a little mad to see it... but not too mad... not mad enough that you completely break your cultural programs...

Oh and I like beer. =P

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stoned.gif

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i should accept other people's opinions even if i don't agree with them?

Accepting doesn't mean agreeing. No wonder you 'true visionaries' can't make up new language, you haven't even mastered the old one.

  • Like 2

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Psychedelics are useful for re-imprinting and changing brain-programs.

Here is the doozey... if you take psychedelics and do not change your programs, the experience was a waste of time.

Discuss.

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no way. ive had killer times just pissing myself laughing on psilocybin with a very very very funny friend playing 'rapala fishing' on the xbox. to a point where we where drooling messes and aching from head to toe from laughing so much.

dont think much programming was altered there? but fuk they where phat times! some of the most psychadelic moments ive had where when thing where not taken seriously at all. the psilocybin seemd to enjoy itself as well!! waste of time? feeling blissed out beyond all your humanly comprehension of the word 'bliss', to be totally engulfed in humour, to see that shit, this life thing shouldnt be taken so seriously' i wouldnt exactly figure to be a waste of time. Laughing, as anyone knows, is a great healer unto itself.

shroom trips with a funny friend are about the best experiences ive had. sometimes it pays not to take life to seriously

edit- but hang on maybee that is breaking the loop of taking this to seriously. when u see the easy joy of just 'playing'. maybee life is just a playgorund...whooooahhhhhh

Edited by incognito

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I can relate to your story Mutant... seeing aspects in my self and in a few friends. One of which was clinically diagnosed as having a messiah complex.. "I thought I was jesus." ... i told him, yeah man you are jesus!

Seems like you gotta act normal so they dont throw a net over you... but fuck, ... there is a DISCONNECT! No spirit in western culture. We are all divine beings! maybe you need to be a little mad to see it... but not too mad... not mad enough that you completely break your cultural programs...

Oh and I like beer. =P

 

hehe,...reminds me,... I had a phase where all I thought was "everything is energy" 'treat everything like you want to be treated..... so I was treating everything with love....give love to receive love ;-) It was like a big realization for me back then.... hahaha... I remember someone calling me jesus back then...... I felt super euphoric all the time in that period...

who says you cant have deep spiritual realizations on beeeeeeer or any other alcoholic beverage? hahahaha... seruiously... anything that can alter perception can.

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hehehe.... incog.... yehha! simple fun on psyches! :)

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Oh and I like beer.

sure you do, who dislikes beer for fucks sake? :lol:

I don't agree with foton either in that last one - but then again, the way I do it nowadays creates at least some insight and reprogramming potential, and it's probably because I see those drugs quite seriously [not life in general, those particular drugs]

I have long refused to take life very seriously, so no real hope mindlessness can help me get off the loop. Quite on the contrary ;)

Edited by mutant
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i'd start every trip with atleast 4 beers... tradition.

kicks in way quicker and always feels stronger. you decide.

Edited by C_T

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i'd start every trip with atleast 4 beers... tradition.

kicks in way quicker and always feels stronger. you decide.

Interesting, thanks. do you feel this blurs at all the clarity of the trip, in a way cannabis can, especially after the peak?

What about psychs with some nausea potential, isn't beer more of a problem with a stomach full of beer when nausea kicks in? Have you been doing it with any psych or just psilos/subs ?

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