Psychedelic to break a loop

[mutant]

incognito, I am not sure you understand what we're talking about here.

please don't make me regret I even started this thread.

chiral, my friend says he's staying off cannabis a bit so as his head clears and then he has second thoughts...

Edited April 8, 2010 by mutant

[incognito]

what are u talking about?

[Yawning Man]

In my experience Mutant, Cacti brew.

[Auntyjack]

Mushies broke my daily need for pot...the funny thing is how.

For nearly 15 odd years i smoked everyday......i was tired of being its bitch, and tired of felling numb.

What i found was i was searching for the wrong thing.....i didnt need something to help me stop, failed at this many times.

It gave me a reason to not want it....all to quickly i had a half sit in my cupboard for weeks, I even stopped drinking.

The fact that your planning and the extent of your commitment to get it right by asking suggestions you already have what you seek.

A dedication and the motivation to change.

[mutant]

Yawning man, thanks, even though friend says cactus was very pleasant and euphoric in his experience, so he would rather pick a 'bitchier' quide for that, propably... but I would bet that in the right occasion, the cactus empathogenic qualities could work wonders, as far as spiritual and character shifts are concerned....

Thanks a lot aunty, for encouragement and kind words.

Incognito, you underestimate me mate, but hey, this won't change the fact that you sent me my first cactus and initiated the cactus frenzy I am into for the last 2+ years.

I have made over 1000 posts, and the original post describes pretty much why I started the thread for.

I mentioned few of my real issues, I didn't ask any psychs to solve me any. And if I did/do/will do, it's something that has been done lots of times, also in scientific labs. Plus, it's not something the drug does, it's something that's worked in the head + real life, before and after, the experience itself is not so important, as it's only some hours of ones life.

IME/O, psychs are capable of lots more than what you think they're capable of. But to refer to one's mental health issues, let alone suggest a specific method for him [cognitive-behavioural - whatever] , you have to at least try to understand him, what kind of guy he is, what kind of life he leads, what kind of drug history he has, see what his real, deeper issues are, IF THERE ARE ANY, and not treat him like a newbie who asked:

"hey, I have issues. What should I take?"

It would be insulting, if it wasn't disappointing. But like a said, you sent me my first cactus, so I cannot think bad of you.

PS: hadn't noticed you're a she maybe that explains it all!

[Auntyjack]

...i forgot to add the reason mushies helped me, see it took me a couple of months of being patient i invested in what i did.

I taught myself to turn a print into a medicine that healed my soul, put me back together.

for 3 solid months every day i listened to what it had to teach me....and it was a hard teacher.

I was always by myself (how could i explain what i was doing?) and it was never for recreation and once it served it purpose i never did it again.

The best thing is it taught me to embrace fear....i learnt to beat it by understanding it.

....this is how i stopped smoking pot, with the fear gone i was hungry to feel again.

i used them...and they let me.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Auntyjack

[mutant]

chiral hear this, I am in the mid of, having had [the previous hours] drunk couple of beer and some female friends shared a \\\\\\\smoke, I return home , in obviously good mood from beer + communication, good friends, , I returnt home and was making 3 variations of a loop for a song some ex-girlfriend wanna make - I got her lyrics, as well as some of thr Ffriends lyrics and discussion, and they want me make some hiphop track out of it, and during the weekend, I have been thinking about making the song about all three of us maladaptives!!!! - as it's a very common theme for us.

So, I come home, I got 2 [500ml] beers in the fridge and settle down in front of the pc [1.24, wake-up 8.30 to work], having some tobacco smokes and I fucking find a joint in my computer desk drawer . Fuckin great! Note: this is a fucking tribute to the indestructable guy, showing some other aspects. I write these before anything. smoking this shit is illegal here, so I wonder how such a thing got here!

auntie. you mean your friend did this for an extended period of time?? can you give some more details??

Edited April 11, 2010 by mutant

[incognito]

Incognito, you underestimate me mate, but hey, this won't change the fact that you sent me my first cactus and initiated the cactus frenzy I am into for the last 2+ years.

?? arghhh why is everybody always picking on me? i was trying to help? in my experience psychs havent helped solve any problems..

bah i give up glad u liked the cactus .

[mutant]

i am not picking on you... psychedelics have enormous potential to help with psychological issues, but doing it alone is not like doing it with a psychiatrist in the 60s....

so what are psychedelics for you? recreation? pretty colors? communication with god? what?

I found it inappropriate that you suggest stuff without having understood where I come from , that's what I meant that you underestimated me...

peace

[incognito]

psychedelics have enormous potential to help with psychological issues, but doing it alone is not like doing it with a psychiatrist in the 60s.... i agree wholeheartedly mutant. I believe psychadleics to have enormous potential to help with psychological issues. I am definately no expert.

I do KNOW however, that there is a tremendous potential for further psychological harm, especially when one is using them to address painful psych issues, especially when done alone. They can turn up X amount of repressed memories and intensify existing conditions. It can be a dangerous game to play with ones own sanity.

I was recommending counselling and a review of your diet, as often when your feelings are reflected back to you, you can actually make better sense of what you are thinking and why you are thinking them. CBT counselling is especially beneficial for this.

Diet is especially important for your cognitive function, and i was merely suggesting this as opposed to wading into potentially dangerous waters via psychadelics. I really dont think you should take it lightly and that eating some psychoactive plants are going to help you solve your problems.

Unfortunately its not that easy. I am merely concerned for your safety, as you have stated that you want to address psychological issues via psychadelics. i am just warning you as a friend, that it is indeed dangerous waters, and i do consider myself foolish for having walked that path myself, and got myself into quite a mess.

I have however made inroads into being a more functional human being by ways of GOOD conselling (good by ways of finding a good counsellor who i was comfortable to work with) and paying much more attention to my diet. Diet i think is much more important and effective for your psychological state than consuming psychoactives. I am saying this because no matter what u think i do care for you.

so what are psychedelics for you? recreation? pretty colors? communication with god? what?

To be honest this is something that i am at odds with myself at present. I do think that the study, growing and consumption of psychadelics have alot to do with who i am today..maybee. I do not think they are the be all and end all. I love growing them. I respect them immensely.

But to answer your question more fully i dont think i can anymore. Id lean toward the spirituality aspect, the feeling of connection to something much larger and unfathomable. I rarely take them these days, as all i seem to glean form them is a total headfuck, a long duration of unbearable anxiety where i am sure i have either gone insane or have died, and often feel suicidal during the duration of the 'trip'. maybee the plants way of communicating i have done enough. feelings i would not wish on an enemy.

it is times that i have looked for healing for negative psychological issues that i have been subjected to horrors i could not even dream of nor understand. These kind of issues i believe need to be addressed in this reality. Especially when unsupervised.

Im sure my opinion will change over they years, i guess my underlying message to you , brother, is to be careful. these be dangerous waters we tread when we are playing with our minds. The mind is a fragile thing, and not to be taken for granted.

I found it inappropriate that you suggest stuff without having understood where I come from , that's what I meant that you underestimated me...

okay i understand that. sorry for coming across trhat way. i must pay mind to operate with more tact.

peace[/b]

peace to u to bro. kisses. xxx

edit- actually there ago again putting my values on others. i think its time i had a long break from this forum. i really have nothing of value to add anymore. peace out groovers, keep on lovin them plants and the peeps around you.

much love, incognito xxoo.

Edited April 12, 2010 by incognito

[holymountain]

psychedelics won't solve any mental health issues... but when it comes to addiction they are excellent at breaking habits and allowing one to see their lives from an objective perspective. they are not enough on their own to make a difference but they can show you where you are going wrong and what you need to do to fix it. they provide a break from habits and a chance to start anew with new knowledge to put into place.... the rest, as always is up to you to incorporate that knowledge into your day to day life.

in repsonse to your original question:

cacti= gentle and loving plant teacher, will show you how to live properly without too much brutality...

lsd= more of a psychoanalytical tool, exploring your mind and the patterns and programs it runs...no real spirit teacher within it as far as i know...

mushrooms= it's up to them...dung lovers seem to be kinder and more positive with their advice...woodlovers can be brutal in their teachings and in my opinion sometimes that is exactly what is needed.

dmt= too quick and overwhelming to work with properly but can be excellent for a 'wake up call'...

[klip247]

incognito you bring a good point... I understand where you are coming from. It is much better to understand and eliminate a problem sober rather than relying on a substance to hopefully "fix" it/them, there is much much more to gain from doing it the sober way.

About the cactus being too "soft" of an experience to gain much from it, if you truly want this plant to teach you.. you must ask for its help by telling the plant what you want it to show you, maybe in your friends case asking for the plant to reveal his problems.

You must do this with the utmost respect and faith, not halfheartedly or with doubt. Going into the experience with a preconceived notion of how the cactus will affect you wont help, going into the experience with a recreational attitude wont help either, you are going into this experience to learn something about your problems, so your attitude should be the same.

The cactus has a serious side which you will not experience unless you look for it. Your friends idea of taking a sacred plant or fungus with the idea of "scaring" him out of his downward spiral is really a flawed plan. Maybe a plan to gain Understanding of his problems will help him to integrate that understanding into his daily sober life. Fear is also a sign of ignorance, yeah you will be scared from your problems but you will also be ignorant of their true existence, completely flawed.

[Slybacon]

Deep down i think that mutant knows what he needs to do he is just looking for someone to agree with him. Just do what you have to man and dont put it off.

[holymountain]

Deep down i think that mutant knows what he needs to do he is just looking for someone to agree with him. Just do what you have to man and dont put it off.

 

totally agree. you wouldn't post this stuff here if you didn't already know the answers yourself....the fact that one is going into a trip with the intention of changing something they already know is wrong makes you wonder 'why bother taking the trip at all?'....

still, i stand by the idea that psychedelics are great catalysts for change and can serve as the function to break habits as well as provide either a helping hand or a slap across the face (depending on what you really need)....mutant i say just go for it....there's no such thing as a bad trip only 'learning, learning, learning'....you might go to hell but at least you'll know what to do to stay out of hell once you've been there and nothing like a trip to hell to make you REALLY think about the way you are living your life. seriously, you seem like a switched on, careful, respectful guy so i say go for it. perform a ritual for safety and get down to facing what you are so afraid of facing.....

good luck and peace.

[t st tantra]

psychedelics won't solve any mental health issues... but when it comes to addiction they are excellent at breaking habits and allowing one to see their lives from an objective perspective. they are not enough on their own to make a difference but they can show you where you are going wrong and what you need to do to fix it. they provide a break from habits and a chance to start anew with new knowledge to put into place.... the rest, as always is up to you to incorporate that knowledge into your day to day life.

in repsonse to your original question:

cacti= gentle and loving plant teacher, will show you how to live properly without too much brutality...

lsd= more of a psychoanalytical tool, exploring your mind and the patterns and programs it runs...no real spirit teacher within it as far as i know...

mushrooms= it's up to them...dung lovers seem to be kinder and more positive with their advice...woodlovers can be brutal in their teachings and in my opinion sometimes that is exactly what is needed.

dmt= too quick and overwhelming to work with properly but can be excellent for a 'wake up call'...

 

a third to half of one of the above with a larger dose of heimia is very healing .but maybe your friend would come out understanding and accepting himself as much as changing.

the addition of an maoi to the quoted list usually produces a less personally orientated experience.

t s t .

[mutant]

Thanks the words guys, you helped a lot

holymountain thanks for the positive vibe, I received it and it's greatly appreciated

Incognito, please don't leave the discussion, all responses are good, any response, it's a great thing to stay in the discussion table and work it through in peace, understanding all views and walks of lives openly. I will tell you some more things about me and my friend, to help you understand more the concept, which is not 'taking some psychedelic and have our issues solved'... My friend knows that the issues are going to be brought up on this trip, he knows it's going to be the real deal this time - in contrast to the magnificently euphoric and inspiring bridgesii trip - because he is thinking and processing the issues all the time, time feels right too, spring is coming full-on and the weather warms up ;)

It's just, I feel psychedelics have so much more to give me, or my friend, we really haven't done that much of them, 14 or so times over 10 years, and never a huge dose. They haven't told us to hang up, not yet anyway.

I have been debating in ethno forums, coining the term psychedelic theist, and defending the ego, in contrast to people who have been supporting the idea that ego is something to fight off, something to kill. And, after all this personal searching and exploring over the years I currently need an ego slap - I still stand by beliefs on ego though. I just really want it to be somewhat reformed. It's already being 'hurt' by current life situations and this is helping a lot. It's a behavioural problem, kind of. He is too much of a cynicist, pot plays a role there too. He has a powerful fucking CBT factory in his head. It's the emotional part of the brain, right lobe if you like, that's 'defect', undergrown, somewhat shy, repressed.

My friend has also had so much cannabis in his life, that he would know [he does] by now what are the potential mental dangers by what I call the warning signs. No signs. Only the regular side effects of pot abuse. He is actually an amateur psychanalyst by interest and study, by his own words, he is a good analyst, but not a healer, not someone who knows tricks to fix the problems. He knows how to spot the issues and their causes. Doesn't know how to put himself in the task of gradually changing. Maybe , just maybe, psychedelics have the potential to aid in that? Yes they do .

Can a counselor, a got therapist aid in that hell fuck yeah. The best would propably be a combination of the two, to speed up and organise the process better

********

It's true, that when I post prior to my friends experience in forums, I kind of need some feedback, just a chat, it acts a bit reassuringly or even encouraging, especially if it involves a trip you know it's not going to be pretty, not only pretty anyway! It also serves as a written and documented approach-report as far as goals and mindset is concerned, well you don't see this every day

It's true that my friend postpones the trip, he has a postponing tendency anyway [wait a second! this is the pot effect again!] but not so much because he is afraid of the drug, as the chiral-the-indestructable implies teasing me, he actually feels great with these mysterious psilos because he found them. We have eaten over 80 species of edible mushrooms but still not a psilo The truth is propably that he is being 'afraid' and postponing while going on on the excessive pot use only because he knows that the trip is going to be more or less the thing he seeks. And it's not going to be pleasant I said it again. It's not great having your ego smashed and rearranged, but sometimes it's what has to be done.

and winter find woodlovers seem like the best candidate by far with the most votes. Are psilocin-high species more active when young and smallish? The batch has a lot of small ones

********

klip247

The cactus has a serious side which you will not experience unless you look for it. Your friends idea of taking a sacred plant or fungus with the idea of "scaring" him out of his downward spiral is really a flawed plan. Maybe a plan to gain Understanding of his problems will help him to integrate that understanding into his daily sober life.

yeah you got your points. I didn't say cactus was giggles and such. Of course it has a serious side. He just had a fucking great time because he was playing [jamming] music most of the time, that one time he did it, recently. He was in a constant trance. So we had the organs there because we knew the cactus has stimulating and musical elements in it's tradition/effects, it was a more light hearted taken experience, and it actually brought about what I wanted for that time too. Nor the scaring off myself thing you mention is what I meant. Ego-crushing, or a fucking slap in my face describe more what he really wants from that experience. I do want a deeper experience, not a deliberate bad trip!

And this very dialogue is a co-affecting factor to the construction of the 'approach' which will end up in the experience itself.

tst:

a third to half of one of the above with a larger dose of heimia is very healing .but maybe your friend would come out understanding and accepting himself as much as changing.

the addition of an maoi to the quoted list usually produces a less personally orientated experience.

boy, thanks! tips like this on the maoi are gold, man, keep them coming. I thing you are doing great work with your original experiments.

heimia, huh? that sounds interesting too. tell me a bit more on it please. Can you describe how is combines?

[t st tantra]

heimia at larger doses/combined makes me feel comfortably cocooned and drawn inward.then a strong visual effect begins.it can be very intricate,very fast changing and seems incredibly integrated/coherent/composed.enough so to suggest a spirit behind its construction.as visual as acid,cevs.

this content usually takes me through aspects of my life and leads to understanding and acceptance of who i am,the decisions i made to get there and why i made them.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20881

utse for more on heimia effects....

t s t .

[FancyPants]

I admittedly don't know very much about mushrooms, but from what I've read here, it would seem that they can "call" you to them. Perhaps if you both keep finding them, they're wanting to be found so they can help you/him. Just a thought.

[holymountain]

I have been debating in ethno forums, coining the term psychedelic theist, and defending the ego, in contrast to people who have been supporting the idea that ego is something to fight off, something to kill. And, after all this personal searching and exploring over the years I currently need an ego slap - I still stand by beliefs on ego though. I just really want it to be somewhat reformed.

 

we all need an ego to exist day to day. there is nothing wrong with ego. but there is plenty wrong with a stale, out of date ego that gets too big for it's boots. thats why it helps to have it crushed every once in a while so it can be rebuilt with new shiny pieces and have all the old pieces that no longer function properly chucked out. terrence mckenna talks about it like an operating system on a computer. every now and then you need an upgrade, you need to defragment and get rid of all the bugs so that your computer can run at it's most efficient and optimum. all computers need this once in a while. after daily use they build up too much memory, store too much data, maybe pick up some viruses after a while, get a little slow or freeze up or shut down sometimes. so you've got to upgrade, reboot, etc and get it running at it's best again.

meditation does this on a daily basis, it's always cleaning out the junk...psychedelics can do it in one big go..it's a bit more intense but quicker than meditation...(meditation is still awesome and if you can do it daily you might not need to trip ever again)

one thing i've noticed mutant is that you keep anticipating that it's going to be a brutal trip. obviously you have some stuff you know you need to work through and it's creating some anxiety because you are anticipating that it's going to be a horrible process...most of the times the teachings are so loving and benevolent and kind that you make changes because you want to do the right thing by the spirits who showed you so much love and light...quite often you are shown things in a positive way basically like 'we love you but here is where you are going wrong, don't stress, just fix it up, we'll love you anyway though"....

try not to think of it as 'i'm going to face my darkest things and it's going to be brutal' but rather 'i can't fucking wait to get all of this shit out of my system, it's going to be great!"

like the stones said 'you can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need'....just trust in the plants to do the teachings for you, relax and let go. if the ego gets destroyed don't stress, let it go. it's inevitable that it's going to come back so instead of worrying about it try to focus on how you can make sure the new ego is the best ego that it can be. upgrade that shitty operating system into a brand new shiny one!

one other thing...stoners always postpone stuff!! they'll always take the getting stoned option because it's a shit load easier and less demanding than the 'work on myself' option.

Edited April 15, 2010 by holymountain

[mutant]

Fantastic post. Great stuff really.

I don't imagine it that 'brutal' though. Just postponing, while still working with the issues.

You know what? I know it's going to be different, that's why the build up of the 'anxiety'. First time psilo, unknown woodlovers, alone, darkroom and atmosphere, in the village home

[mac]

Well like i said in a earlier post i can only say good things about wood-lovers in my very limited experience with them while in a land where they were legal

If the third party is as well informed as you on the topic i cant see any harm in it unless they had any medical issues etc that they should take into account

IMO if they are over the age of 18 have thought long & hard about things & know full well any negative side effects or risks involved then they should homogenize a batch, try a low to mid dose first to gauge the amount for their final venture into the underground (or wherever the fuck they took me in my head )

I still cant explain it or understand it because it was a while ago & i never got to repeat the experience

Edited April 19, 2010 by mac

[∂an]

You know what? I know it's going to be different, that's why the build up of the 'anxiety'. First time psilo, unknown woodlovers, alone, darkroom and atmosphere, in the village home

 

identifying these unknown woodlovers before having the experience might be a good idea... so in the depths of the trip, you can have 100% assurance that you are in no physical danger from this strange funugs you have introduced into your body. wise words by holy mountain, with psilos you will certainly get more of what you need that what you want/expected. the cosmic scale of the mushroom visions can be truly frightening and cold at times, but i think if you follow its teaching far enough you see that the infinite vastness and beauty of the universe and hyperspatial realms is embodied in everyone of us... the Ouroboros.

be careful with maoi's and psilocybin, i wouldn't recommend for a first time. if you really feel compelled, try smoking or vaping a small amount of syrian rue rather than eating it as its more manageable that way. first time SWIM took syrian rue was truly frightening, first time they thought they were in physical danger from a psychedelic... didn't even get around to the jurema, with the blurred vision, headaches, lack of coordination etc.

with regard to the herb, IMHO the key is cultivating a positive relationship with it. its an amazing, beautiful and powerful plant - one that can be abused, yes - but one that has been an ally of us monkeys for thousands of years. key things are: stop combing it with tobacco, eat or vape it rather than smoke it, only smoke after you have done your hard days work and most importantly grow it yourself. used in this way it can be very positive and uplifting.

[mutant]

identifying these unknown woodlovers before having the experience might be a good idea...

these finds are either an undescribed species or a recently described rare woodlovers from balkan insula I don't remember

Check them out

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23102

Thanks for comments + feedback re: the herb.

only smoke after you have done your hard days work

this I do

mac thanks for your replay mate

[woof woof woof]

Mutant,

vipassna.... a 5 or 10 day vipsassna is probably even more profound then any psychedelic.

I think the whole trick is to get out of your routines so you give yourself the chance to get a clear view on your personal situation.

psychedelics are in my opinion meant to be used as tools for the people that have a hard time breaking through. They are there for easier access to the spiritual world. Or to help get the OLD conditioning (old problematic filters) out of the way.

If there is one psychedelic I am positive about, it would be MDMA. Of course AYAhuasca is way up there on the top of the list. Aya in my opinion requires more commitment to get the benefits out.

However you want to do it,.... it's all hard work to get positive beneficial changes in your life going.

I would steer in the direction of Buddhism. (This is personal choice after years of looking into many types of spiritual and religious practices) However you twist it and turn it..... in the end you will be unique because of your personal background... be it shamanism...

hehehe.... I am getting of track

Canada is for canadians ;-)

[mutant]

Hello woof, thanks for contribution.

I wanted to ask for a quicky breathing/meditation/relaxation technique to maybe be used by my friend before/during his experiment, but I am was so downcast [not all the time though] from the course of last days discussions [don't get this wrong, I blame 50% or more of the 'failure' to me] I was in no mood to try and ask for more advice. SO this vipsassna thing might be just right if it's fast enough for a meditation-illiterate guy like me.

I find buddhism the preferable of the major organised religions, which I admittedly generally dislike [organised religion, especially monotheism] mostly because of the liberty and the pretty individualistic philosophy system of buddhism

I cannot know if this is better or not for what my friend wants to do, I guess I should think twice when sharing so big portion of me. Or maybe, just maybe, this is exactly what I need... Have my ego hurt & attacked as the climax builds up... Too bad no real people around here are into psychedelics and share similar quests. Or maybe this is another failure of mine....