Warning on Subs

[ThunderIdeal]

no need to compare cubes in a disrespectful way. cubes are beautiful critters and extremely profound.

i am going against the flow here but can only comment on my experience: i think i prefer subs but that is because they are smoother.

[The Spoons]

PS: Subs LOVE good graf and good hip hop. Kick back with somne rhymes, close your eyes and experience the love and mad graf. Nothing beter imo. Truly that culture has a deep psychedelic undercurrent that the myco-gnosis truly appreciates.

 

I whole heartedly agree with your thoughts on subs and graffiti visions. I find its either that or scenes of gore and horror coupled with metal. This also always seems to happen in the last hour of really feeling the shrooms.. they can permeate for a few hours after the euphoria and head fucked feelings have worn off. Makes for an interesting time sleeping. I tend to tell whats left of the shrooms to "bring it on and show me everything" i always wake up feeling amazing.

Edited May 1, 2010 by The Spoons

[holymountain]

mutant..you are the one calling the trip a bad trip. you are still stuck in the belief of bads trips. if only you had been there. paranoia had nothing to do with it. the reason things got weird was because of the large dose and the challenge to the mushroom to see something different. i had the intent to go to new places and i certainly did. i'm not attributing a difficult trip entirely to the mushrooms/spirits like you suggested. i'm attributing it to dose and intent.

if you took the same dose with the same intent i'd be very interested to hear your report.

i wouldn't call my beliefs my religion. you can have spirituality without religion. you are the one putting me into the 'psychedelic theist' box. i bet you just wanted to whip out the term so you could proudly tell everyone you coined it in 2007. good on you!!

basically this is a warning on subs thread and my story was a warning that 'subs can get pretty bizzare on doses such as 3-4g so be careful'.

they can also be very gentle and easy going on smaller doses. no doubt about it.

believe whatever you want to believe. i'll do the same. seeing is believing and i've seen a lot of different stuff. i can't box it up as easily as you do. i guess it would be a lot easier to box it up if i hadn't actually had the experience.

you are telling me the mushroom has no character, has no agenda, has no messages. thats it's all just my mind. just have a decent dose and you'll see that this is a load of shit! unlike a lot of spiritual/philosophical arguments this one can be proven. all it takes is the twenty minutes to prepare and ingest your dose. arguments like yours become a dead issue. the mushroom has a spirit and a personality. why don't you pick up the phone and have a chat with it.

Understanding is better than knowing

understanding IS knowing right?

i would further wager that experience is better than non experience and only experience can lead to true understanding and knowing.

and when it comes to experience on subs (or dmt, high dose mushrooms etc) you seem to have zilch.

Subs don't teach respect. Bad trips do

no. subs do teach respect. hard trips or easy trips. they still teach. only someone that has never had a full experience with them would say stupid shit like that.

furthermore...i have seen the graffitti connection and i dig it very much.

Edited May 2, 2010 by holymountain

[PD.]

OMG the carpet is swallowing and I'm dead and am the cosmic being at the end of time remembering my own evolution in reverse. Shit, that's how I befriended PD, many, many years ago!

I still wanna know what that old lady was doing!

[PD.]

But yeah, don't shoot speed on subs

[mutant]

Holymountain

you seem to try to hard to proove I am a 'lesser' person to express my opinion on psychedelics, because I am not a theist, because I haven't made tham my gods, because I haven't had an experience you think everyone should and CAN see. {can everybody really see it, believer?]

Plus because I haven't lived the life of the acid freek some and yeah, I am not like you who suddenly think that because we are in a forum discussing psyhcs you are the true psychonauts because you eat more shrooms than me! [aka disk sizing]

I personally find your attack to me the opposite to enlighment, and actually provide with all the thoughts and arguements why this might be happening, according to my comments to your report.

mutant..you are the one calling the trip a bad trip. you are still stuck in the belief of bads trips.

so it was a prery trip? a pleasant one? a meaningful one???

you call it difficult, I call it difficult and incomprehensible and with overtones of paranoia. I don't care to name it bad trip at all means. Call it what you want. It would be a bad trip for me by the description, but it could still be useful, like striking at our soft spot, ego. But not meaningful...

Also, IME, psych theists always dismiss the notion of a bad trip, saying there are no bad trips, propably because they have had so many of them they got used to them. What a load of crap. No wonder I am boxing you so 'easily', a group of people supposedly experts on psychedelics use [now you specialise it to tryptamines] refusing some of the most basic concepts and realities of psychedelics: their psychotomimic [mimicking psychosis] effect and the implications of this.

you are telling me the mushroom has no character, has no agenda, has no messages. thats it's all just my mind.

huh??!!!

nonsense

I quote my self from the other relevant thread

I used to believe psychedelic potentiation is an organic thing too, not only a spiritual/psychanalytical proceedure. Well, it is sure is!

I can further analyse this belief of mine if you like to see what I really think of psychs.

look, it might be useful to think of salvia space as a feminine presence while entering there, IME anyways, but that doesn't mean that the lady or the space are actually real or representing some other parallel universe.

that has nothing to do with the info the mushroom is carrying.

that's what I believe: mushroom and psych plants carry information.

Why would you think mushrooms like you more than me?

just have a decent dose and you'll see that this is a load of shit!

so you're telling me the dose and approach and intent that seems to helped me with my persuit and present goal in my real life [and not in my imagination] is NOT a decent dose, and that a 'decent dose' which will result in a difficult and 100% incomprehensible trip is the 'real' thing?

Get real man

Get over recommending me to use your own approach to reach my goals which you quite obviosuly don't seem to even remotelyunderstand. I'm not ingesting psychs to establish some contant with 'the other'. You're not listening. Becasue .... you 'know' , you're not trying to understand.

understanding IS knowing right?

yeah, better understand first then know, as compared to knowing beforehand then translating, understanding accordingly which IMO you seem to do.

unlike a lot of spiritual/philosophical arguments this one can be proven. all it takes is the twenty minutes to prepare and ingest your dose. arguments like yours become a dead issue. the mushroom has a spirit and a personality. why don't you pick up the phone and have a chat with it.

psychoactive substances do not have personalities in the traditional sense [even it might help us understand them seeing them as such], they are part of plants, but they do have qualities. 'Agendas', if you like. They sure seem to have played a role in our evolution.

Now, mushrooms are entities, organisms, I doubt you understand them better than I do as you so desperately need to proove. I am an avid mushroom enthusiast and picker. I get high on finding them, Id'ing them and watching them, all of them, edibles, toxic ones, psychedelic ones and this internatinal rarity find of mine 5 years into picking seems a lot more to me than to the average seasonal picker specialised in 2 magic species...

i would further wager that experience is better than non experience and only experience can lead to true understanding and knowing.

sure, I agree, only you seem to imply understanging and knowing equals believing in some form or supernatural. I still don't see anything supernatural.

BUT, if I took a ton of mushrooms I might see it. Or maybe [more probable] I would turn permanently nuts.

Maybe I will see 'the other' in the future. Maybe. But why believe it beforehand?

and when it comes to experience on subs (or dmt, high dose mushrooms etc) you seem to have zilch.

 

nice arguement

my friend ate his first 1,6 dose recently. Sorry to disappoint you with not seeing any entities, and actually further understandin the psych space with my own eyes and not some external paradigm given my Terrence McKenna. Sorry for not dosing more, what can I say ?

subs do teach respect.

through difficult experiences mostly , and especially extreme bad trips

that aspect, of teaching respect is not exclusive to subs I assure you. Lsa seeds and acid can easily do this too.

In my friends experience the shrooms did not 'teach'. They just did what they do. And it fucking works. With no teaching, no entities. Maybe that's because I don't allow anyone to teach me. I am my own teacher.

[holymountain]

okay way too much stuff to reply to...but thanks for taking the time to write all of that out.

i couldn't care less at the moment. like i said believe whatever you want to believe and i'll do the same. i don't think i'm any better because i've had higher doses. i hate that bullshit and i've said time and time again i do not mean to sound elitist with my comments....but lets face it...if you haven't had the experiences then there's not a lot you can add other than speculation and some hefty generalisations.

just got to defend a couple of things that i can be bothered with forgive me if i come off like a jerk but you seem to really bring that out in me.

you seem to try to hard to proove I am a 'lesser' person to express my opinion on psychedelics, because I am not a theist, because I haven't made tham my gods, because I haven't had an experience you think everyone should and CAN see. {can everybody really see it, believer?]

i have no doubt that everyone could have these experiences. it's not hard to follow a few simple steps. i don't think everyone should or needs to have these experiences. it's not neccessary. but if you are prancing around making claims about such things maybe you should have the experience first then talk about it. i'm not out to prove that you are lesser. i couldn't give a shit. this isn't a dick sizing competition like you suggested (or hoped). honestly i'm so over this shitty argument that it would be funny if it wasn't such a pain in the ass to write replies.

What a load of crap. No wonder I am boxing you so 'easily', a group of people supposedly experts on psychedelics use [now you specialise it to tryptamines] refusing some of the most basic concepts and realities of psychedelics: their psychotomimic [mimicking psychosis] effect and the implications of this.

i never claimed to be an expert. i know what i've experienced and i know what i've read in books. thats about all. speaking of books why don't you check out 'DMT: The Spirit Molecule' by Dr. Rick Strassman. This guy is an expert and he spends a whole book talking about people's experiences with beings and clowns and mantids and reptiles and all sorts of other crazy stuff. and he's a scientist! read the book, realise that other people are having similar experiences and then maybe, just maybe pump your nuts up and have one of your own!

yeah, better understand first then know, as compared to knowing beforehand then translating, understanding accordingly which IMO you seem to do.

is it just me or does this make no fucking sense?

so you're telling me the dose and approach and intent that seems to helped me with my persuit and present goal in my real life [and not in my imagination] is NOT a decent dose, and that a 'decent dose' which will result in a difficult and 100% incomprehensible trip is the 'real' thing?

Get real man

a decent dose doesn't mean 100% incomprehensible nor does it mean difficult. fucking generalisations. it's not the 'real thing' it's just another level of experience that the mushroom can show you. and i'm telling you (for the millionth time) that the things i am talking about can easily be accessed and experienced...if only you'd increase your dose. i'm not claiming i understand mushrooms better than you or anyone i'm only stating some basic facts: increase your dose and stranger things will happen. more doors will open and some of your world views just might be exposed for the illusions that they are.

if you are happy with the level you are exploring at then thats great! no need to increase your dose. carry on and best of luck!

that aspect, of teaching respect is not exclusive to subs I assure you. Lsa seeds and acid can easily do this too.

thanks for the news flash.

you seem to imply understanging and knowing equals believing in some form or supernatural. I still don't see anything supernatural.

BUT, if I took a ton of mushrooms I might see it. Or maybe [more probable] I would turn permanently nuts.

here you admit that if you took more mushrooms you might have supernatural experiences. thats pretty much the end of the argument right there.

you also show how frightened and misinformed you are about these sorts of doses and psychedelics in general. you keep worrying that you will go crazy, or that these doses are dangerous. you've already decided that rather than see something supernatural you will more likely turn permanantly nuts! talk about a negative mind set.

 

Maybe that's because I don't allow anyone to teach me. I am my own teacher.

judging from the amount of spelling errors in your post i can certainly believe that.

Maybe I will see 'the other' in the future. Maybe. But why believe it beforehand?

good point. why wait around pulling your dick, speculating and contemplating maybes?

jump right in! read some books on the subjects, have a go yourself and then get back to me. i'd LOVE to chat about it!

Edited May 2, 2010 by holymountain

[t st tantra]

mutant, sometimes[often?] your opinion is way out of proportion to your experience [or lack there of].it is annoying to some here and why i dont engage with you much in such threads.not to say i dont 'like' you .i think i get where your coming from and you seem ok!

experienced people rarely seem to talk of 'bad trips'.it is a very limited conceptualization to them.

t s t .

[mutant]

your opinion is way out of proportion to your experience

yep! I admit, still, my arguements, datas and facts, stand as true as your next alien entity story

Re: holy

okey this is waaay too fucking personal and not getting anywhere.

maybe you're right,

psychedelic theism should be the rule-setting norm in such forums. Other approaches, points and views should be expelled to outer fire, when rude to the leading norm.

what the fuck reason has to do with psychedelics anyways, huh?

[this is half serious, half irony]

[holymountain]

yep! I admit, still, my arguements, datas and facts, stand as true as your next alien entity story

what facts and whats datas?

edit: actually don't worry. i can't be bothered.

Edited May 2, 2010 by holymountain

[Chiral]

edit: actually don't worry. i can't be bothered.

 

...hahah geeze man took ya long enuff didn't it...ya got more patience than me partner, I was out before y'all got started, I don't have the energy sometimes to be honest.

maybe I need to do another huge ass dose of subs again and liven the thread back up at some point, it feels like Rudd and Abbot have been in here bickering for a month and the worm has left the screen for a sleep.

[mutant]

Chiral you got no patience nor manners. So we are quite similar in a range of personality factors

Holy, how can you not be bothered but still return to answer me so many times in a row. I guess you have lots of spare time or you can be bothered after all, just playing cool. I have lots of spare time in my work.

what facts and whats datas?

my own facts and data, my own experience, my own take on what psychs do

Furthermore people who do believe those 'strange' phenomenons do happen [like me for that matter] , but give other explanations than what believers usually regard as a fact and a revealed truth, is a fact, a data, it's not just me. I am not the guy who obsesses over science, and scientific explanations, but man, everything you describe is best [iMO] explained with reason than with accepting that real entities speak to us in our strong trips.

OK you wanna hear my best data/fact?

Psychedelics can [and occasionally will] cause a state resembling psychosis where one actually believes all that he experiences as real or as representative from another dimention or whatever: visuals, spirits, voices as real, outside entities. That's what psychs do.

So what are you opinions on the psychotic state? You know, psychotics have very similar visions and beliefs with one other for no apparent reason. Some are chased by someone [conspiracy], some make contact to the other [person, entity, god] some are into the messiah thing, they are sure they were revealed the truth. Does this 'coincidence' mean what they see and experience is real?? Do they really connect to the other?

Another fact?

People in psychs, whether they have dosed once or more times, big doses or normal one, are generally open-minded. How come they are not so open-minded in exactly this spot? [that is, when this certainty is doubt: that whatever they experience in those deep strange experiences , it might be a product of the head rather than some outside entity.

In the bottom line, it's all about semantics. I don't doubt the experiences, I don't doubt their significance to you or those who choose to practice them, I don't even try to convince you to explain them otherwise [it's pretty obvious you don't talk to 'outsiders', non believers a lot about this]. I am just giving another perspective and that's what rules about psychs in the first place: allowing us to see stuff from different angles...

[holymountain]

nice facts you got there mutant. thank you for sharing them. you should write up a fact sheet and see if one of the mods will pin it.

can we get back on topic now please....

warning on subs: they can look very cool in their early stages.

[mutant]

you should write up a fact sheet and see if one of the mods will pin it.

I doubt that. Those facts are a disgrace to the sacraments, so we'd better hide them under the carpet ;) In any case, let's not talk about it, OK? I will be more liked this way, that's for sure. 3 years in ethno forums proove this

[Zen Peddler]

i never claimed to be an expert. i know what i've experienced and i know what i've read in books. thats about all. speaking of books why don't you check out 'DMT: The Spirit Molecule' by Dr. Rick Strassman. This guy is an expert and he spends a whole book talking about people's experiences with beings and clowns and mantids and reptiles and all sorts of other crazy stuff. and he's a scientist! read the book, realise that other people are having similar experiences and then maybe, just maybe pump your nuts up and have one of your own!

What a wank of a book that was - dont even get me started on it! The guy was obviously desperate for a gimick. The book is poorly written, has stupid contentions that are unprovable at best and at worst dont even relate to the content of his book and ultimately the book is really just a set of trip reports with no point.

Just because he is a scientist doesnt mean his views on these issues have any more weight than any one elses.

That book is a bad choice for anyone trying to prove any point about psychedelics.

And as for a comparison of subs, azures and cyans - azures and cyans blue more, have a different colour to the bluing effect and have less body load than our native subs - but every body is different.

And vic subs are definately more potent than those from WA and NSW!!!

[holymountain]

ultimately the book is really just a set of trip reports with no point.

exactly... a bunch of trip reports of trips that were all performed under controlled conditions.

similar to what we have in this thread...a few trip reports and we find similarities between people's visions e.g the carnival aspect.

rick strassman didn't claim to know what the data he collected really meant and neither do i. he ends the book saying he has no answers. no one really knows what exactly is going on.. weather these visions come from within or from elsewhere.

the important thing about the book is that controlled experiments were done and the results that came from it were that many people claimed to see entities (of varying types) whilst under the effects of DMT. thats the point.

i don't see anything gimmicky about it either.

Edited May 4, 2010 by holymountain

[mud]

And as for a comparison of subs, azures and cyans - azures and cyans blue more, have a different colour to the bluing effect and have less body load than our native subs - but every body is different.

And vic subs are definately more potent than those from WA and NSW!!!

 

Very interesting.

Zen, have you noted much difference in substrate?

I recently came across mountain shrooms by the kilo..

And they're growing most heftily from old bracken fern and Eucalypt matter.

Do they have a similar nature? A key to a doorway kind of thing? Do azures and cyans both allow entry to the carnival?

There's such a wonderful array of different fruits amongst Subaeruginosa, couldn't we eventually establish stable substrains?

The wavy caps.. the fat stems.. the nipple tops.. and then, those fruits that weigh out to over 2g dry!

I'd definitely like to uncover more of their secrets.

[kindness]

Its too hard to read all of this thread now. There is just too much to go over. I'm just replying here to mud and thunderideal, (well sort of)...

although p.subaeruginosa can definitely be hard at times - in particular heavy body load - so can so may other plants and fungi. I don't really think that this is specific to subs.

This thread is about subs in particular though so I won't stray too far from the topic! I have to say that for all the hard times subs have given, so have i experienced light easy times. I mean that in the way of body load, subject matter whilst in the space of the shroom and visions etc. I have noticed that this depends at least in some degree to where they have come from. I have said hello to these guys from a whole heap of areas. I will not list where cause that would be silly but it's from at least 15 distinct areas around NSW. Some have been light almost cube / cid like others have been heavy and very introverted.

I believe there is definitely something to be said for where the little dudes are found.

It is such a subjective thing to try and put rules or grand theories on. I don't think I could go any further than what I have said here in trying to explain! It would take the same exact mind thoughts leading up to eating them, same people saying the same things around us, same light, same food, same bloody everything... even then how could it be the same because since the last time our minds would have grown and changed by the things that have happened to us since last time.

ugh, it's giving me a headache trying to even explain this lol. It's much easier to just beshroomed!

Edited May 4, 2010 by meanies

[holymountain]

It's much easier to just beshroomed!

 

wish you'd said this three of four pages ago!!... good advice indeed.

[kindness]

lol.

eat em up butter cups

[mutant]

similar to what we have in this thread...a few trip reports and we find similarities between people's visions e.g the carnival aspect.

a serious and objective observer-explorer would note what kind of people are the sample for such a survey, what the history and education of them is etc etc, what kind of use history they got, what kind of interests they have, what books on the subject have they read etc

rick strassman didn't claim to know what the data he collected really meant and neither do i. he ends the book saying he has no answers.

I bet most people are McKenna readers. Mechanical elves, aliens, reptiles etc it's pretty simple to me that many of those visions come from his visions... and the hordes of the believers that took him literally...

no one really knows what exactly is going on.. weather these visions come from within or from elsewhere.

so why are so so fucking sure I am wrong? I didn't even claim I was right, but it's really indicative you fell you SHOULD dismiss me. So, these visions still CAN come from within, huh [as the very word psychedelic means] ??

*****

I was reading 'food of the gods' of McKenna, after my friends experience I thought it is more interesting now to read it. The Soma chapter , discussing amanita and other candidates for soma are very indicative of what I call psychedelic theism.

The dude only took amanita twice, with one of the being 5 gried grams {!??!?! a very low dose for a breakthrough}. Anyways, his lack of openmindedness and his obsession with the classic psychedelics, especially tryptamines is at its highest here, where he clearly doesn't know shit about amanita inebriation, and quite clearly cannot be openminded to see anything else.

The tryptamine obsession has blurred his jugdement into a firm messiah complex, not unlike what I call psychedelic theism....

[ThunderIdeal]

y'all continue if you must but i say it's getting old, the back and forth is tiresome, move on.

I bet most people are McKenna readers. Mechanical elves, aliens, reptiles etc it's pretty simple to me that many of those visions come from his visions... and the hordes of the believers that took him literally...

 

this seems undeniable, although there are a number of ways of interpreting this. simply though, your conceptions colour your perceptions, of course a book you read can alter the way you decipher an experience.

Edited May 5, 2010 by ThunderIdeal

[t st tantra]

i called it tryptamine chauvinism when i first came to sab.the place seemed full of it to me then.

t s t .

[Chiral]

I bet most people are McKenna readers. Mechanical elves, aliens, reptiles etc it's pretty simple to me that many of those visions come from his visions... and the hordes of the believers that took him literally...

The tryptamine obsession has blurred his jugdement into a firm messiah complex, not unlike what I call psychedelic theism....

 

you're an arrogant beeatch aren't you mutant, what makes you think everyone is a Mckenna reader...?

for your info I only read his stuff quite recently and even then I never finished the book, sooooooo pretty simply then where did all my alien and reptilian visions come from for the 20 odd years leading up to reading half a book.

I opened a store in the UK in the mid 90's that was totally based around psychedelics and aliens, I had been interested in both since a child, no books brought these things into my mind, although years down the track I confess to reading various encounter stories and studied and researched the history of LSD when I was 12-13 out of a Funk n Wagnalls encyclopedia.

You assume way too much for someone who has dabbled only very lightly, I would be expecting more questions coming from someone like you instead you seem to have to all the answers...perhaps you are Mckennas incarnation...if sooo then..

This was a thread P. subaueruginosa and precautions for pickers and those who may choose to take them...obviously you didn't read the thread title but decided to give your complete guide to mutants law on psychedelics anyways, oh that and merging your own thread about cannabis addiction into here cause obviously you just didn't get enuff attention with it here and the massive 5 pages of it at the nook...

[mutant]

i called it tryptamine chauvinism when i first came to sab

felicitous term!

You assume way too much for someone who has dabbled only very lightly, I would be expecting more questions coming from someone like you instead you seem to have to all the answers...perhaps you are Mckennas incarnation...if sooo then..

I do ask lots of questions too in case you didn't notice. And contrary to what you seem to be implying about me, I admit I am learning lots of stuff, even from you. It's just I don't judge people's opinions from the number of trips they've had, that's all.

Plus, we are still on topic, leaving your insults to me aside...

Getting seriously disillusioned IS a danger of psychs, you know. I have a friend that could not see it coming despite the warnings from me and a couple of other friends. He went for the high doses, for the big potential, the healing thing, and he believed. Now he is diagnosed psychotic/schizophrenic