wanting faith.

[watertrade]

Sometimes I wish I was religious, wouldn't it be good to feel like some greater power was taking care of you? When life gets hard I often think it would be nice to be able to turn to some religion to find comfort. I could go looking but would feel like a fraud or/and couldn't convince myself of the existence of god.

Where do the atheists go?

[Chiral]

Damn I've had this disscussion with myself so many times...I really know what you mean man...I think sometimes that's a really big part of why people turn to religion...it gives them a sense of belonging in a world full of emptiness and negativity....I really do beleive that's why most do it, also to be a part of something bigger than themselves is important so as to continue to feel humbled and continue to be thankful for things in life or just life in general.

this is an amazingly cool topic WT that I'm sure many bots here can really get thier teeth into.

praise alah, jesus, buddha or whatever huh...just be or be together.

atheisists have to have something to belive in even if it's not a recognised religion, they just need some common ground and that's a group and viola they have their religion.

[rahli]

Where do the atheists go?

 

Agnostic is a good start. First you must come to terms with the fact that you don't have hard proof that god does not exist. Then you can start searching for your own true god. I have been searching using an integral framework which seeks to understand and intergrate all states and stages of conciousness. It has helped me to get a clearer understanding of the world we live in.

This book is a masterpeice and can be read by anyone religious, athiest or otherwise -

Integral Spirituality by Ken Wilber.

Integral Spirituality is being widely called the most important book on spirituality in our time.

Applying his highly acclaimed integral approach, Ken Wilber formulates a theory of spirituality that honors the truths of modernity and postmodernity—including the revolutions in science and culture—while incorporating the essential insights of the great religions. He shows how spirituality today combines the enlightenment of the East, which excels at cultivating higher states of consciousness, with the enlightenment of the West, which offers developmental and psychodynamic psychology. Each contributes key components to a more integral spirituality.

On the basis of this integral framework, a radically new role for the world’s religions is proposed. Because these religions have such a tremendous influence on the worldview of the majority of the earth’s population, they are in a privileged position to address some of the biggest conflicts we face. By adopting a more integral view, the great religions can act as facilitators of human development: from magic to mythic to rational to pluralistic to integral—and to a global society that honors and includes all the stations of life along the way.

Once you have an understanding of the value and purpose of religion and spirituality you may choose to devote your time to practice and who know may even be held in awe by your own understanding of god. Stanger things have happened.

[Chiral]

Every single person can accept that there are unimaginable powers or forces that have created us and every other organism before and after our time, a series of events that continually evolves made or caused by "something".. without being able to be pigeon holed or focused on as a single entity or framework, because we can never imagine understanding how the universe became or how does it end we give up trying to understand this extravagance in lieu of something called "god"

What else can one do I suppose but just accept and hand up the respect that surely must be due to the construct that has absolutely no sympathy and just goes about it's work tirelessly over and over...work that is so magical and intricate that one could spend a whole lifetime just studying one minute detail of it such as a single plant or insect and yet still not ever understand how or really ..."why"

DMT has been the the thing to truly open my brain blocks over the last few years, I truly believe it's experience is some sort of compressed time portal, the actual chemical/molecule is a stain/residue that is intricately hidden, or a by product of "making" it's probably a molecule left behind non intentionally or perhaps very intentionally, that only at a certain time period of our brains evolution could we find it and use it giving us a peek into another minor dimension outside of this one, not that it explains anymore about this dimension, but it certainly does help if you are like me and never believe anything and always forever question everything.

For me lately I have come to feel happy enough with this line of thought...

There is no other organism or entity no matter how advanced or how intelligent that knows the meaning of the universe...in fact the most advanced beings out there are in fact no closer to finding "god" than me or the Greek guy who goes to church every Sunday...that's how it is and that's how it always will be.

[ThunderIdeal]

Sometimes I wish I was religious, wouldn't it be good to feel like some greater power was taking care of you? When life gets hard I often think it would be nice to be able to turn to some religion to find comfort. I could go looking but would feel like a fraud or/and couldn't convince myself of the existence of god.

Where do the atheists go?

 

if you're ideologically committed to atheism then i reckon that takes a bit of faith in yourself. that's somewhere to look isn't it, within? i believe in god but i tend to look within, nearly always.

[rahli]

For me lately I have come to feel happy enough with this line of thought...

There is no other organism or entity no matter how advanced or how intelligent that knows the meaning of the universe...in fact the most advanced beings out there are in fact no closer to finding "god" than me or the Greek guy who goes to church every Sunday...that's how it is and that's how it always will be.

 

So is this understanding of the universe more advaced then the last one you had? and more or less avanced then the one you will have tomorrow.

God is found at all stages of consiousness. Some stages have just evolved larger more inclusive view of the world, universe and all suchness.

Someone who is looking for no god will find such. This no god for no man might be the new god for those that aren't seeking.

[Chiral]

To discover God is to come to an end.

It's the constant journey and searching that matters, for without this there is no movement or nothing to aspire to to...imagine you had everything in the world you ever wanted and you knew everything there was to know...what then...?

it is the journey not the destination that is the driving force that propels all organisms forward...to survive, to procreate, to mimic and hide, discover new and adapt, becoming symbiotic with your surroundings, camouflage yourself and your young, pass on your knowledge to them and tell them to run, stay safe, survive and go as far as possible, then they can pass the torch to their young in a never ending chain of survival and death, all the while the search continues...this is life, for without movement and continuation and seeking there is nothing but static.

[rahli]

Maybe god is just as you describe, the seeking and evolution towards a greater more inclusive world, towards something greater then humankind, something that includes all levels of sentience on all plains at all times. Maybe there is no end only all suchness. I am seeking but as yet still do not claim to have found. Maybe seeking is having found but without one knowing.

[Chiral]

All my life I wanted to find some significance in the word "god" a hidden meaning, something so simple as to be overlooked by everyone or hidden in riddle or code, I even dwelt on what it meant or if you spelt it backwards.."dog", but there were never any answers, only pathways, journeys and more pathways. I even went so far as to spin the whole concept on it's head and started exploring the supposed opposite of god and goodness..."evil and satan etc...

I thought for the longest time that God and Christianity was nothing more than a grand charade, and that satan and evil were actually the ones we needed to be looking for and unveiling, not suppressing and keeping locked away...I'm still not 100% sure about this one, but this is what becomes of this sort of thinking and if like me you develop a pattern of fundamental reason and thought based around opposites...black & white, lightness and darkness, the universe and the anti-universe...how every single living organism has an opposite of how it can be sectioned in half perfectly to reveal to equal sides...I tell you it can drive one's mind into a psychotic state of distrust and morbid and malevolent looped madness after a while.

I'm with Buddha on this one..it's the path not the destination, it's in between not on any one side or the other...it's just right there in the middle.

[rahli]

And Chirals on the bomb with DMT.

If you want to tear down the walls in your search then look no further.

[drugo]

Great discussion. As Chiral points out, the quest for meaning and assurance is an enigma everyone (to some degree) is sinking their teeth into. But I tend to have a different view on meaning than most of those around me.

Perhaps the human ability to decide that things in the world mean something, that life has meaning, is simply an apparatus -- a tool or capacity of being --that we use to define value (or what we like and what we don't like [also, some people like to dislike things, if you know what I mean]). For example, my thick wooden chopping board in the kitchen for me means cooking, dinners, food and a passion. The meaning of the chopping board is very different for me than it is for my house mate as he doesn't like cooking so much. Although my house mate and I agree that the chopping board is a chopping board, the meaning of it -- and more importantly, the experience of it -- is radically different for me, the passionate cook. This is a somewhat simply example. But, consider consumerism and meaning making, and even ideas/experiences of God. It seems that meaning is a tool that the heart uses to become, or that we use our heart (values) to move around in the world and meaning making supports and inspires this process.

I think where we tend to get it wrong is by exploring our faculty of meaning making in search of an absolute. I don't think the capacity of meaning (as understanding) is meant to be about absolutes. It is like trying to fit an ocean into a balloon. Therefore, the search for conceptual absolutes seems to ultimately (hehe) be tormenting and disappointing.

I have found that greater forms of unity (I think this is what "absolutism" is grasping for) comes more in embodied experience than conceptual consideration. When diluting the ego or flying through the Milky Way via a gut full of DMT we are engaging in life through a more intelligent knowing.

Perhaps the "body" (as form not flesh) explains and becomes its explanation in one, rather than explaining in our head then using that meaning to move around in the world by.

I feel that life is a process rather than a being, as I think Chiral notes.

Finally, there are laws in the cosmos. Many tend to perceive certain fundamental laws as God, and by resonating and becoming in line, or in key, with such forces we embody God.

Gee, I didn;t expect to write so much

Edited April 4, 2010 by telepathogen

[drugo]

DMT has been the the thing to truly open my brain blocks over the last few years, I truly believe it's experience is some sort of compressed time portal, the actual chemical/molecule is a stain/residue that is intricately hidden, or a by product of "making" it's probably a molecule left behind non intentionally or perhaps very intentionally, that only at a certain time period of our brains evolution could we find it and use it...

 

Hey Chiral. I like these ideas.

Following the idea that our brains evolved to a certain capacity that allows us to metabolise and use DMT as we are using it now, it seems logical to suggest that there are profound compounds which sit outside the range of our biospiritual complex. Perhaps what our eyes and minds see as empty or chemically redundant is actually profound for other lifeforms that have different biospiritual capacities. Perhaps stones embody DMT-like tools for other animals/spirits. Perhaps the wind embodies a DMT-like tool for the wind spirits?

...giving us a peek into another minor dimension outside of this one, not that it explains anymore about this dimension, but it certainly does help if you are like me and never believe anything and always forever question everything.

I tend to think that by stepping outside the bubble we gain value perspectives of the bubble. Colonialism, as adventures into the "Other", is packed with this kind of psychoanalysis. We see ourself in different light in the face of different things. Hyperspace continues to transform my perceptions and explanations of regular time/space.

with love

[gerbil]

For me it can sort of be lumped under two options,

one is just going out into the garden/nature and really looking deep into the whole thing or simply an individual plant/animal or whatever, thinking about what a human actually is, and what other things are, how are things alive? what is everything? Why are we here? what possible function are we serving, whats come before and whats coming after... Ant nests are a good staring point during the day, and if you can't get into the mood, some minor plant enhancement can really get you in the zone.

When down and out, i find that can be one of the harder ones to bring yourself comfort as compared to my option 2...

Stare out into the universe at night time, even day time is good but needs more effort ime to get those mind boggling break throughs that come so easily at night time.

[MORG]

I'm an atheist and I'm with Gerbil.

You are the infinitesimally unlikely product of a sequence of events billions of years long. Every single one of your long chain of ancestors has survived to reproduce and by tracing them back into deep time you are linked to every organism that surrounds you.

You are one of the very few lucky ones, because most people are never born at all. You are one of the lucky ones because you are the universe looking back on itself, a consciousness with the ability to ask the question "Why?".

This is where, within a naturalistic worldview, I find belonging and connection to something far greater and a grateful affirmation for the joy in just living.

Absorb a landscape vista. Examine a flower. Gaze at the stars. Stand in the rain.

[ThunderIdeal]

maybe that's the answer for WT. the moment.

it's amazing how rarely most of us actually experience it.

[Chiral]

Nice post Morg, nice to see you round these parts again Mr..

Just for the record as I think we may have all gone off on a tangent here with relation to WT's OP, there is absolutely nothing wrong with packing in a messed up or confusing life for say a life with Christians and church or even rediscovering some catholic roots, I mean generally these people are honest and kind caring people and don't really ever seem to hurt anyone, they are pacifists and generous, it's just their belief is handed to them via a book of quotations that can be interpreted into doing good, being good and thinking of others as opposed to selfishness and debauchery.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people who choose this life if it saves them and their children and keeps them safe and happy IMO.

I've had to go to church many many times with relatives and family and have always felt a sense of warmth and peace when with the confines and stages of these settings...the people have been nothing but kind and overwhelmingly generous, always from the heart stuff too.

I've found that I cannot ever fully give myself to an established religion, I'm very selfish and try to not inflict that upon others if i can, so being in a church group I would be always wanting to do good but in the back of mind half thinking how I'd really like to get blazed or suck on a ciggy...know what I mean.

[Evil Genius]

I totally share your Opinion on this WT. Its good to believe in something even if its crap. Ignorance is bliss sometimes. When i was younger and still bought all the religious hype, i was convinced that i´ll always be fine no matter what caus someone watches me. But when i started to change the way i saw religions, it affected myself because i overthought everything. Got depressions, hated life, got no fun. Now, i just assume that something watches my step though it has nothing to do with religion. You could call it some kind of universal karma. Even if i´m just a tiny part of a chairs leg in the giant universe...I just assume that something in this chair watches my step. This works well because i dont overthink my life that way. I just take it how it comes and do the best with it. If i feel a little bit anxious because of something, i just think: "fuck it!" and do what feels right. Worked everytime till now. This way, i can still make fun of all the crazy religious people that knock on my door at 8am on Sunday to save my soul without giving up my sense of security because i can be crushed at any minute. Even if its a false sense of security. If it works, then i dont care why it worked. And if it doesnt, well fuck it. Shit happens.

[Mycot]

You don't want faith for many reasons.

What you want is gnosis.

[hamma]

Sometimes I wish I was religious, wouldn't it be good to feel like some greater power was taking care of you? When life gets hard I often think it would be nice to be able to turn to some religion to find comfort. I could go looking but would feel like a fraud or/and couldn't convince myself of the existence of god.

Where do the atheists go?

 

God indeed can be reached directly, for there is no distance between Him and His Son. his awareness is in everyone's memory and His Word is written on everyone's heart. Yet this awareness and memory can arise only where all barriers to truth have been removed. In how many is this the case? Here, then is the role of God's teachers. They,too have not attained the necessary understanding as yet, but they have joined with others. This is what sets them apart from the world. And it is this that enables others to leave with them. Alone they are nothing. But in their joining is the Power of God.

There are those who have reached God directly, retaining no trace of worldly limits and remembering their own Identity perfectly. These might be called the Teachers of teachers because, although they re no longer visible, there image can yet be called upon. And they will appear when and where is is helpful for them to do so. To those whom such appearances would frightening they give their ideas. No one can call on them in vain. Nor is there anyone of whom they are unaware. All needs are known to them and all mistakes are recognised. The time will come when this is understood. And meanwhile, they give all their gifts to the teachers of God who look to them for help, asking all things in their Name and in no other.

Sometimes a teacher of God might have a brief experience of direct union with God. In this world, it is almost impossible that this will endure. All worldly states must be illusory. If God were reached directly in sustained awareness, the body would not be long maintained. Those who have laid the body down merely to extend their helpfulness to those remaining behind are few indeed. And they need helpers who are still in bondage and still asleep, so that by their awakening can God's Voice be heard.

Do not despair, then, because of limitations. It is your function to escape from them, but not to be without them. If you would be heard by those who still suffer, you must speak their language. If you would be a saviour, you must understand what needs to be escaped. Salvation is not theoretical. Behold the problem ask for the answer, and then accept it when it comes. Nor will it coming be long delayed. All the help you can accept will be provided, and not one need you have will not be met. Let's not then, be too concerned with goals for which you are not ready. God takes you where you are and welcomes you. What more could you desire, when this is all you need?

Amen

"A course in miracles"

[hutch]

if you're ideologically committed to atheism then i reckon that takes a bit of faith in yourself. that's somewhere to look isn't it, within? i believe in god but i tend to look within, nearly always.

 

I once couldn't have agreed more Thunder but what about at that moment in your life when something really bad is happening around you, like a partner near death. Would you or could you still look solely within? I wonder when all hope seems lost would you not look towards the heavens and pray? Haven't been put in that position yet but I have thought about it. I thought I had a handle on god...Bloody psychedelics More work to be done. I am more confused now than ever before but am looking at that as part of a journey. Up until recently I was only taking puppy steps. Then my whole conception of what psychedelics were was shattered in one (overseas) Salvia experience. I'm just not sure anymore! Everyday I see things all around me that remind me so strongly of that trip. There was a lesson there and I feel I missed it. I was about to find out something big...But what? Bloody psychedelics...

[hutch]

To discover God is to come to an end.

 

Chiral, I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement! How profound... Is it yours?

We are all on a journey that must come to an end. And then I think "but does it"

I like it anyway..sums it up nicely.

hutch

[devance]

[sometimes a teacher of God might have a brief experience of direct union with God. In this world, it is almost impossible that this will endure. All worldly states must be illusory. If God were reached directly in sustained awareness, the body would not be long maintained. Those who have laid the body down merely to extend their helpfulness to those remaining behind are few indeed. And they need helpers who are still in bondage and still asleep, so that by their awakening can God's Voice be heard.

Do not despair, then, because of limitations. It is your function to escape from them, but not to be without them. If you would be heard by those who still suffer, you must speak their language. If you would be a saviour, you must understand what needs to be escaped. Salvation is not theoretical. Behold the problem ask for the answer, and then accept it when it comes. Nor will it coming be long delayed. All the help you can accept will be provided, and not one need you have will not be met. Let's not then, be too concerned with goals for which you are not ready. God takes you where you are and welcomes you. What more could you desire, when this is all you need?

Amen

"A course in miracles"

I don't where this came from but Satanic.

If ones like a nialistic philosohy[as a test, then there are demons that can fullfill your wishs of abject, misery, slavery but its not spiritual break through method.

Just get slowly weaker and confused.

T

[botanika]

Belief? I believe in happiness. We're here for a good time not a long time. Belonging? I just look at all the cool people around me that constantly inspire me. Most people are inherintly good - its a better survival mechanism than brutality. Purpose? I look at all the ecological and human diversity around me - its unlimited and infinately beautiful compared with scripture. Where do we go? We live on in the above two: our actions live on in others and our physical self lives on in nature.

Honestly I think not being religious is the most amazing thing. I thank my parents for never forcing any sort of doctrine onto me...I have always been free to choose or not to choose it.

I think most people are religous simply because their parents were.

Edited April 9, 2010 by botanika

[ThunderIdeal]

I once couldn't have agreed more Thunder but what about at that moment in your life when something really bad is happening around you, like a partner near death. Would you or could you still look solely within? I wonder when all hope seems lost would you not look towards the heavens and pray? Haven't been put in that position yet but I have thought about it. I thought I had a handle on god...Bloody psychedelics More work to be done. I am more confused now than ever before but am looking at that as part of a journey. Up until recently I was only taking puppy steps. Then my whole conception of what psychedelics were was shattered in one (overseas) Salvia experience. I'm just not sure anymore! Everyday I see things all around me that remind me so strongly of that trip. There was a lesson there and I feel I missed it. I was about to find out something big...But what? Bloody psychedelics...

 

look in, look out, it's just perception.

i do think that as multi-layered divine beings one of if not the greatest faculty we have is heart. this is usually overlooked. occupy this part of yourself and maybe the need to believe 'somebody is driving' will diminish. you don't need to be spiritual to believe that meditating and experiencing clearly improves your quality of life, AND, your level of comfort about living an uncertain existence.

[drugo]

I have always been free to choose or not to choose it.

 

Have you heard of Chomsky theory on the manufacturing of consent? It is similar to Habermas on social constructionism.

Put crudely, the feeling and expression of freedom or agency is said to melt and obscure into unconscious socially constructed motivations. For example, we are free to buy any product on the market, devise an identity through consumption. But, is the initial desire in us to conform to a consumer system actually ours???

It is not black and white, but the blurred nature of human agency seems to problematise ideas about belief-systems, doctrine, freedom etc.

The doctrines of western liberal atheism are ironic to say the least. They are contradictory and pumped full of shallow aesthetic symbols and rhetoric.

Bogans in pubs worship and are informed by moral systems as are Christian devotees. There are fundamentalist atheists and fundamentalist religious folks. I think we should be careful to not dissolve complexities and multiplicities into ideals and extremes, such as fundamentalism.