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Bouncing Bear Botanicals Raided

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If you don't see the good in people growing their own plants in the current situation that the entheogenic community is in then you are a retard.
[bold mine]

Thanks, I spare you the insult as a sign of good faith. Well actually I self-censored myself.

Hordes of stupid former consumers forced to cultivate and ask silly questions on net forums... Well yeah, that's really good news... for the cause.... or you're that naive that a guy with consumer mentality will transform so easily to a trich lover and cultivator? Nope, it's untill they find their next BBB. Which already exists btw.

Nice post Flip!

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Mutant.

What's happened is that the perceptional bar has been raised.

You give me the impression that you believe that it's better to give people convenient access to powerful molecules

without any training, guidance or demand that they raise up to a level of responsible use by way of a mature understanding for these tools?

Pointing people to erowid isn't going to cut it.

It's simply the wrong paradigm to follow.

I'd much rather have people raise themselves up to something like this than to have it lowered to them.

I have little sympathy for those that demand the quick and easy route for something they don't understand

If they are allowed to think of botanicals as way to cheat the drug laws and be reckless

Then, we've gained nothing.

Firstly

The good thing about making people cultivate their own plants

is because, they'll have to be responsible and stable enough to care for it.

This generally removes all immature kids (living at home) and fuckups from the equation.

and they know it.

Secondly

it's a self regulating system.

if you can't care for yourself (house and home), because you're all wacked out on kratom

Then ... you can't care for your plants ... you lose their "production" in proportion to your lacking stability.

Chewed up and ill cared for plants - don't grow.

Again the people most likely to complain about this, are the ones that know that it eliminates them

or because it forces botanical stability and responsibility on them as people.

Gone are the homeless wanders making mimosa orders at the public library.

Again, I don't have much sympathy..

at the very least... they're a image problem for the community.

If you're thinking that we can win public support for legalization

then we have to cultivate the upstanding and productive citizen image...

not the one of a guy who can't pay his rent.

Thirdly

It takes time.

this weeds out those casual people that don't take the time to research or have a true interest in entheogens.

It cools the heels of many and gives them time to think about what they're doing and why

investing time and expense into the cultivation of a plant also means they're going to be less likely to be frivolous about it's use.

The people that are currently asking questions are an easily solved problem

I'd much rather be pointing people to a gardening forum and having them learn something

that is of both philosophical and spiritual value. Many people have no connection to the earth

Many can learn more than how to grow drugs by caring for a plant that gives back 100 fold.

Whereas, the option you seem to be advocating is one of continued imports and sales of carrier items

(monitored by DEA, US Customs and other agencies)

To anyone with access to a paypal account or credit card (again easily monitored by the government)

IF that is removed, then the anti drug forces will be forced to judge consumption by ER visits

and the odd traffic stop... (I'm willing to bet that those will also decrease as well)

If we continue to have websales of dead plant materials (importation)

as with what happened with webtrypt "research chemicals"

It will lead to the same illegalization that webtrypt did.

Nobody learned a thing and when the suppliers were put into jail

everyone was left out and looking for the next thing

just as uninformed and as shallow consumers as before.

Now the same types of people are doing it all over again.

I'm asking you mutant to change your mind on this...

I'd rather have long term but more difficult (and more appreciated) access

then no access at all. (or worse).

Edited by Flip

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i think mutant just isn't looking forward to a slew of immature "noobs" on various forums.

... and there's something to this. what if they are so immature and numerous that they drag down solid forums with BS? guess time will tell.

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Wow! If all that is true then I actually think they deserve to get raided!

Selling stuff to kids? K2 found at school?

Holy Shit! What an irresponsible company!

I guess nobody will ever ask me again "WHY DON'T YOU LIKE BBB?" when I talk shit about them.

I NEVER liked BBB and always warned people against buying from them!!!

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Flip I don't know how exactly did you make these assumptions on how I see it. I wonder if you have read my posts... ~ nearly 1/3 of my posts are in Cacti&Succulents forums! My collection proportionally has far more of cacti with no use other than the pleasing of watching them grow and take care of them. I recently bought a collection of ozzie clones paying 150aus$ for the postage, perhaps starting a new saga of these clones in my region... And even if I know people like me who do like to grow cacti are few... I have a more elitist opinion on how clones and knowledge is held and communicated not because I am racist towards the mass, but because I know people better than that. Most people find growing cacti is boring.

Your points assume that a temporary lack of cacti stock will slowly turn a consumer-type into a cactophile and grower! Or that someone who wants to get 'high' on a cactus actually appreciates the beauty of the cactus itself as the living organism...

ThunderIdeal is spot on. And these forums are good for people who love plants. There are others that are more into the consumer mentality and stuff about consumption. Different forums, different people. Some people are in differnt forums too.

In anycase, cacti were easy to grow before BBB bust anyways. Psych use doesn't necessarily change a person into a richer, great-hearted and more open-minded individual. I have been learning this over the years...

Other than than, it's cool if people actually get to see how beautiful and rewarding is to grow the plant itself. Then they might stop thinking about eating a peyote , if they grow it themselves. Maybe. I hope it will! More people for me to share the 'hobby' of cactophilia!

Personally I am trying to make a nice garden of columnars also other cacti and succulents, not limited to trichocerei or peyotes. The fact that some of these plants might possess 'magical' properties is indeed what actually got me to start the hobby passionately, but to me, just like with mushrooms, psychoactivity or culinary potential is only one chracteristic that's special for some of them.

But growing plants has to be one of the most rewarding hobbies, and this has always been associated with their potential use in food, paint, medicine, etc. This attitude of mine is not pretended, as if to be -legal- or to sound picky. I am really that way. ANd I am trying to speak up in a serious manner when talking to people, users or non-users , mainstream or undeground, all kinds of people, trying to show that not everyone of us is a fucking druggie or an uneducated or dumb freek. And this, in a country that all these are still a tabboo.

So we don't have any laws for salvia kratom amanitas lsa seeds around here, and they are relatively unknown ...... It's better to stay this way, until sensible people start using ethnos. Demand is not necessarily good. When serious approaches are followed then you won't hear this on the news!

Such approaches are more silent, growing slowly like cacti themselves, among close, somewhat elitist groups of likeminded psychonauts and friends.

Mentality is everything!

My friend is actually the definition of a sensible and conservative psychonaut, so I think you totally misunderstood whatever you thought about me...

Edited by mutant

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Hello Mutant,

Yes I've read some of your posts and I remember seeing you within the threads that are of interest to myself.

and I also understand.... Guess I'll also have to jump the hurdle with you as you will with me.

Your points assume that a temporary lack of cacti stock will slowly turn a consumer-type into a cactophile and grower! Or that someone who wants to get 'high' on a cactus actually appreciates the beauty of the cactus itself as the living organism...

No, what I know is that if drugs are the primary motivation

This will open the door for a few that desire what they think they want

and bring them up a level or two in personal growth by giving them something more to think about

The lazy and stupid will fall away of their own accord unless catered to.

That is the main problem... someone will cater to them in a quick bid for cash

so I suggest that different people help reduce that (noob) market as much as possible by encouraging plant cultivation.

as well as, throwing blame upon all websites like BBB for threatening their legal access to plants.

Go into their web forums and jam their system... find the best and bring them in... get the others to blame those BBB esque websites.

reduce their profit pool and help preserve the cultivation of valuable plants.

ThunderIdeal is spot on. And these forums are good for people who love plants. There are others that are more into the consumer mentality and stuff about consumption. Different forums, different people. Some people are in differnt forums too.

Of course, that's why I'm here.

By accepting this you also accept that you won't be having to deal with the american noobs asking basic questions either. so they'll shouldn't be bothering you.

This forum speaks in a language that isn't to their tastes.

I'm currently dipping down into some forums to help select and point the way for those that are above the problem people but don't yet know where to turn. Someone has to be the guide every now and then... otherwise you only feed the monster.

Psych use doesn't necessarily change a person into a richer, great-hearted and more open-minded individual. I have been learning this over the years...

Yeah, I roll my eyes when I hear this new age over idealization from someone.

[added} Christian, Jewish, Islamic followers all say the same thing as well.

Other than than, it's cool if people actually get to see how beautiful and rewarding is to grow the plant itself. Then they might stop thinking about eating a peyote , if they grow it themselves. Maybe. I hope it will! More people for me to share the 'hobby' of cactophilia!

Well that is exactly why I'm promoting the idea of growing your own to the noobs as well as the fear that "the end is near".

I'm using both the carrot and the stick here mutant, to bring people up closer where they should be if they're interested in using these tools.

There's many that are looking in quiet desperation but do not know where to turn.... I chose to give them something to shoot for.

But growing plants has to be one of the most rewarding hobbies, and this has always been associated with their potential use in food, paint, medicine, etc. This attitude of mine is not pretended, as if to be -legal- or to sound picky. I am really that way. ANd I am trying to speak up in a serious manner when talking to people, users or non-users , mainstream or undeground, all kinds of people, trying to show that not everyone of us is a fucking druggie or an uneducated or dumb freek. And this, in a country that all these are still a tabboo.

ditto on all counts... you are not the only one.

perhaps you've know a guy named murple....

Such approaches are more silent, growing slowly like cacti themselves, among close, somewhat elitist groups of likeminded psychonauts and friends.

yes, but the cat is really already out of the bag here in the states

among the net junkies things have gotten waaaay out of hand

and when I was busy trying to hold back "the flood" as the lycaeum mod over a decade ago..

Working to keep the consumer drug mentality of the 1960's street drug culture under control

and getting people to think was a serious time commitment on my part... but I believe it was and still is worth it.

Yes I have the same viewpoint and I fully agree that the spread of information but not knowledge is what is bringing many things down.

I've preached it for over a decade.

People have to work and invest in order to get the keys. Peoplelearn and change their own personal attitudes along the way as a result of putting in the effort.

The worst thing to do is to cater to people with such consumerist attitudes and that is what is entirely what is wrong with the entire situation here.

Catering down to people is the crime, that BBB committed.

Now, I believe is the best time to change peoples perspectives

and help point them into a good direction...

because right now many are looking for help and are open to hearing what we have to say.

Mentality is everything!

I know what you mean...

I think you totally misunderstood whatever you thought about me...

Well, I think we can see each other more clearly now. Good to meet you :)

Edited by Flip

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When I first found out about these amazing plants I wanted to eat them and get high... now, years later, I'd much rather garden then trip.

Mutant I cannot understand how you would think that growing these plants is a bad thing...

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Teotz easy way to explain is in the conversation between mutant & flip

is Is the glass half empty or half full ??

mutant takes the Pessimistic view

That the market that BBB catered to are just going to flood good forums & bring the ethno junkie attitude & negative attention to the responsible stores & growers of ethnos as well as new ethnobotany research.

Flip is the Optimist. (glass half full)

Hopes that it will bring a few of the misguided MHRB & cacti skin chip buyers pull their heads in & actually become a bit more responsible

I think its already made the situation look bleak for the future, Your sally D plants teotz they may be next on the banned or scheduled list :huh:

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I'd like to think of myself as a optimist... :) So I'm with Flip.

Salvia divinorum is already illegal in many states, but some have passed laws which say you must be 18+ for it to be legal and stuff, which I believe is a good direction.

Also, we've won a bunch of entheogen cases in the USA concerning Peyote and Ayahuasca which seems very promising.

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Mac,

Yes, I do think it's about perceptions (but not the way you're thinking)

It boils down to this

Mutant doesn't want to be infringed upon with "idiotic questions"

so he's trying to protect the forums in a way...

I'm saying that we all start at zero and learn largely from example.

The best way to bring people up out of the mud

is to not let them all make a fucking royal mess out of everything.

but point out to them that there is a problem and a solution that the "best" will recognize

and gravitate towards.

Offer up a better solution than what the BBB types are making $$$ from

and people will take it and run with it.

Mutant, regarding longevity of forum sites.

they need new blood in order to thrive.

over a decade ago when the lycaeum was undergoing several changes

I argued for a more advanced and closed system of membership to the forums

just like the real old days when it was crazy encrypted, nymservered

and you had to make yearly payments to belong.

I also wanted to keep the idiots out and everyone and everything safe and secure.

I was outvoted and while I was correct on many points

the realization that any measure we could undertake

it didn't stop peoples greed.

There would always be someone else willing to cater down

to the masses in order to make a buck or have their lame ass ego stroked by a ignorant kid.

I digress....

While there were a few forum invite only sites set up for the advanced people

in the wake of all of this...

What I learned was, that its about as fun as the Universities professors mess hall.

Even in these advanced websites... without the new people coming in and asking questions,

bringing in new things and random information

we all grew stagnant in our comfortable little worlds of BS.

and worse of all....

That which we left behind... grew stronger.

Those open sites grew in membership and bozo ideas became gospel.

The clueless kept going along without us... growing in both numbers and influence.

without the voices of the reasonable and learned... they were able to shout down

the few voices of reason left on many of the larger forums.

It's all steps that have lead us to the point we're at now.

the only way I see to combat all of this is to educate people and teach them

because if we don't... the idiots will be more than willing to do it for us.

then we'll all be left with nothing.

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Well, I am not like 'elitist groups' only . All kinds of groups fit in the big picture. I am into actively changing the approach towards drugs . Remember that I am in a country that calls all recreational drugs as narcotics - even users do. Police are not after the ethno scene, because there is no ethno scene. But the attitute of people is pretty shitty. I mean people are completely clueless here in Greece. Hence, I might be a mit less tolerant with stupid-consumer attitudes, not against noobs in general.

but yeah, culture shapes through people.. i love see people into cultivation

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Wow! If all that is true then I actually think they deserve to get raided!

Selling stuff to kids? K2 found at school?

Holy Shit! What an irresponsible company!

I guess nobody will ever ask me again "WHY DON'T YOU LIKE BBB?" when I talk shit about them.

I NEVER liked BBB and always warned people against buying from them!!!

But didnt you say on these forums once that you lied about your age? and that you were actually younger than youve stated? So does that mean that you were one of the "Kids" that they supplied stuff too?

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is that really relevant? i began getting blind drunk at something like 14, if it were my choice nobody would be getting blind drunk at such a ridiculous age. i was finishing off quarter bags in a day about a year after that, if it were my choice nobody would practise that kind of chronic pot abuse at such a ridiculous age.

the point i'm making should be pretty clear, i'm not saying i want to be god and tell everyone when they are old enough to turn drug use into drug abuse... it's just that anyone is allowed to speak out against something even if they were involved with it in the past.

Edited by ThunderIdeal

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is that really relevant? i began getting blind drunk at something like 14, if it were my choice nobody would be getting blind drunk at such a ridiculous age. i was finishing off quarter bags in a day about a year after that, if it were my choice nobody would practise that kind of chronic pot abuse at such a ridiculous age.

the point i'm making should be pretty clear, i'm not saying i want to be god and tell everyone when they are old enough to turn drug use into drug abuse... it's just that anyone is allowed to speak out against something even if they were involved with it in the past.

yeh, i know i know...

Maybe im just gettin tired of his/hers mindless rants.... lol

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Great discussion.

over a decade ago when the lycaeum was undergoing several changes

I argued for a more advanced and closed system of membership to the forums

{snip}

I also wanted to keep the idiots out and everyone and everything safe and secure.

I was outvoted and while I was correct on many points

the realization that any measure we could undertake

it didn't stop peoples greed.

No kidding, Flip. I was in the same position at Lycaeum a year or two after you, I imagine.

I had Ivory Tower delusions too, and the thing is, on the internet, you can't do it. Like you

said, forums need new blood to survive. At the same time, there's a lot of destructive ignorance

out there. How to balance that, and survive as a forum where people actually talk about things

and behave somewhat responsibly, is the trick -- and SAB is the only place I've seen that comes

close to doing it. "Civilized" is not a word I apply to forums, but it often is that way here.

SAB being not USA-focused helps for some mysterious reason.

and worse of all....

That which we left behind... grew stronger.

Those open sites grew in membership and bozo ideas became gospel.

The clueless kept going along without us... growing in both numbers and influence.

without the voices of the reasonable and learned... they were able to shout down

the few voices of reason left on many of the larger forums.

I think this is the truth. It's certainly got me thinking. I wonder if blogs with more author

control over content and membership are the way of the future for certain kinds of information.

Internet forums are sociological experiments with oft-unintended consequences, for sure.

Thanks for your posts.

Edited by Rizla

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Nope the bust would fall under DEA. FDA may be called in as experts during trial on there regulations but not to actually make chargers. I wouldnt worry about this to much Its fairly standard mode of operations for border line ocupations for example i know a local strip club owner in my area that recently went down he was just about to purchase a new home for a large sum of money.He was the smallest operator in the area and didnt have ties to law inforcement like others did. Basically they let these types of folks get fat enough to slauter this is what happend to BBB. He grew big enough long enough for them to take him down. He will shortly be replaced with somone new. Now that they see how much money there is to make somone from there own ilk that will provide off the record pay roll inflation will take the lead. If there is not some one setup already most likely operating under multiple names. Remeber the police are so intimatly linked to the criminal aspect in my country he could have done what he was doing for alot longer if he had been sleazy enough to illicet the local badges to watch his back. I wouldnt be to worried about cactus they will probably chase the weed and profit from the cactus. They have to do there job enough to appear to be doing there job, what was that scar face qoute "we like snacks". Look up "FBI run gambling dens" on google. The feds use those places to gather names and information about those involved in illicet activities so i wouldnt worry about his books. I happen to know where the local FBI information collection outlet is in my area. Like I said standard mode of operation for them. Im highly intrested in knowing how this turns out exactly what charges they will drop what shit will stick. In my area you can look at the amount of pain clinics that have just now after being around for 10 + years started to get attention for being prescription shopping out lets for drug abusers and dealers.

PS. Get realistic guys we all like to get messed up and have a good time. If there is any one thing that anoyes me its somone lifting them selfs up to being a better person on the grounds that there doing the same action as other for there own intellectual growth making them better. Its not a far leap from that to the same argument that the dealers that work for the FEDS must make to justify there existance. I only sell dope so i can keep everyone safe from them self blah blah blah. And as far as the "Ethno comunity goes" the real problem is that pepole dont like to have to hide there true selfs behind smoke and mirrors and shouldnt really have to. I personaly think that mind set keeps all of us in the dark where we dont belong. Dancing on that thin gray line is right where we dont want to be. Perhaps its a generational thing but i keep it tucked under my pillow that one day all this regulatory bull crap will come to an end. I also find it really hard to belive that they were selling directly to school aged kids is there any link that can be provided to prove this.

Edited by Teljkon

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I also find it really hard to belive that they were selling directly to school aged kids is there any link that can be provided to prove this.

Any link is going to be coming from the media or from "the authorities". I followed up on it

What I did find was that the school districts cited we're less then 30 miles away from the storefront.

other districts did state that k2 was a active problem on campus. But admittedly, nothing that stated that they got it directly from the store ... of that the storefront had a policy of checking age for sale either.

they could have ordered via the web. I do know that when I was in high school that a 30 mile drive in a friends car wasn't that big of a deal to get something new, exciting and legal.

And as far as the "Ethno comunity goes" the real problem is that pepole dont like to have to hide there true selfs behind smoke and mirrors and shouldnt really have to.

Sure, you don't have too but you'll pay the price if you do... it's your choice.

If there is any one thing that anoyes me its somone lifting them selfs up to being a better person on the grounds that there doing the same action as other for there own intellectual growth making them better. Its not a far leap from that to the same argument that the dealers that work for the FEDS must make to justify there existance. I only sell dope so i can keep everyone safe from them self blah blah blah.

non sequitur

Remeber the police are so intimatly linked to the criminal aspect in my country he could have done what he was doing for alot longer if he had been sleazy enough to illicet the local badges to watch his back. I wouldnt be to worried about cactus they will probably chase the weed and profit from the cactus.

Very true. What they're after is the cash that they can take from him by making a reasonable claim that they're illegally acquired profits.

There is a small sandbox that very one can enjoy... stay in that and everyone is fine..

throw dirt at people, cause problems and you'll be taken out and beaten up.

.BBB Stepped out of the sandbox allotted to them.

and seems to not have played ball with the other team as well.

but that's not the whole situation either.

There's the State legislation that seems to have generated it's banned list off of BBB's menu of products.

looks like many things are now going to be illegal in that state other than K2.

Teljkon,

What do you think the worth is to use this as leverage to actually

get their marketing and customer base to cultivate their own domestically

vs being consumer of powders, skins and imported materials?

is there any advantage to growing other than access in your opinion?

Edited by Flip

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Fuckin Americans and there school district shit! It means fuck all if a drug deal is done near a school in some white middle class suburb, or in one of those poor minority suburbs that they love building so much over there. It's just another BS law to keep crime away from the rich and middle class, while forcing the poor and most vunerable in the society to deal with the problem.

Anyway, don't know how it is in the US but in Australia you couldn't stand anywhere in a town, suburb or city without being within 30 miles of a school. So I really don't understand why you would think that the BBB shop being within 30 fuckin miles of a school means a single thing! No media report has even come out claiming they were selling directly to kids, so unless someone has got actual evidence of it, stop spreading hysterical shit, because of some personal vendetta you may have with BBB.

Also, growing your own plants has a lot of advantages, it's healthy to learn a little something about the plant and fun to watch them grow. But to claim you have more of a right to consume these plants than other people because you grew them yourself is far from that enlightinment thing a lot of you claim to get from these substances, in my opinion!

If I go out to the local park and pick a few shrooms does that mean I have less of a right to consume them than someone who has grown them in a artificial enviroment? Or is it only if I paid for the substance with the evil $ that I become a ethno junkie with no respect for the plant (fungi) and lose my right to consume it?

You can't act like an elitist, while claiming to be enlightend, it's a oxymoron dudes.

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But didnt you say on these forums once that you lied about your age? and that you were actually younger than youve stated? So does that mean that you were one of the "Kids" that they supplied stuff too?

Yes. Also I was the kid they caught in the school yard with the K2 :)

Maybe im just gettin tired of his/hers mindless rants.... lol

Don't read my posts.

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Jabaz,

I'm sorry if I didn't state it clearly.

There is a general "rule" regarding sales of prohibited items to those under 18

This also applies to grade / highschool campus's as well

Violation of providing "drugs" within 1,000 yards (roughly 1k meters)

and/or to someone underage results in the court systems use of special charges charts

for increased and even mandatory time in prison.

Basically everyone knows that sales to kids

even if it's technically legal... is just stupid and begging to get busted.

What was insinuated by the media reports was that sales were made to school age kids

by the fact that a close by school district found their students with K2 on them while on campus.

Reporting this is solely intended to inflame the public's sentiments against BBB store.

While I didn't find any references to K2 being found at the local school district to the store.

That doesn't quite mean that they're not selling to those same kids.

Only that those from other districts are less wise about bringing it to class with them.

30 miles isn't that far to drive along those rural roads and for the cost of gas vs shipping to their parents home

I'm willing to bet that most picked up their stuff directly.

Edited by Flip

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Yes. Also I was the kid they caught in the school yard with the K2 :)

Don't read my posts.

I dont. ;)

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Id like to address both of these

non sequitur

Teljkon,

What do you think the worth is to use this as leverage to actually

get their marketing and customer base to cultivate their own domestically

vs being consumer of powders, skins and imported materials?

is there any advantage to growing other than access in your opinion?

If you think my comment was none sequitur then ley me clear it up for you. The argument of somone who is growing researching and using a ethnogen is any better than somone who is just using an ethnogen or is in any way more responsable ethnoginic community member is false. Especially anoyes me when somone says that becase there after it for research and higher good when we all dam well know that there going to get wacked on the stuff. I feel that this argument isnt far from the goverment endorsed (by this I mean the guys who play ball with the Feds) Drug dealers make about the same argument in there minds to justify there actions even murder. Its a pure flex of ego and isnt valid.Mind you this commnet wasnt just directed at you it was at most of the posters in general.

Secondly Let me take the Micro and home brew buisness as a good comparison for ethno gen comunity in terms of leveraging there customer base. There will always be those who will take the easy route and drink Bud. But the beauty of bud is that everyone gets started on bud and suddenly there made into beer drinkers. Through huge leaps in marketing and edjucation many get enlightend to the better world of micros and "Flavor". The good marketing concept is some thing that in my opinion is out side the praverbial "Sand Box" for the ethnogenic comunnity. Know all of this applys to the consumers of Ethnos, none of it applies to the growers. Your mixing apples and oranges yes some will move to growing there own as many brewers in the early 80's wer guys who loved diffrent beers and couldnt get them in the states so they Brewed there own dam beer. But know with the advent and more comman place of beer choices in the american market they no longer need to. Some still love brewing and do it to this day. I know others who stopped completly and dont brew at all any more. The advent a of easy to acuire product made that choice easy for them. In short a healthy community of intrested producers will never be the same as a community of a consumers. The best you can hope to do is well edjucate them and warn them of dangers. Also remeber one important fact its dam hard to grow some stuff iver tried several times to grow Passioflora edualis in my yard and never succeded actually as a matter of fact ive wasted more seed than I like to admit. I just might not have a green thumb what should I do to enjoy ethnogens??

Fuckin Americans and there school district shit! It means fuck all if a drug deal is done near a school in some white middle class suburb, or in one of those poor minority suburbs that they love building so much over there.

You can't act like an elitist, while claiming to be enlightend, it's a oxymoron dudes.

As awful as it is I do agree with some sort of higher penalty for selling in and around or too school kids. Protecting minors thats the intent of the law but sadly like so many of those laws like it ends up screwing with the guy smoking a dubie in his garage while hes working on his car and just happens to live near a school.

Your right on with the elitist comment.

Edited by Teljkon

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The argument of somone who is growing researching and using a ethnogen is any better than somone who is just using an ethnogen or is in any way more responsable ethnoginic community member is false. Especially anoyes me when somone says that becase there after it for research and higher good when we all dam well know that there going to get wacked on the stuff. I feel that this argument isnt far from the goverment endorsed (by this I mean the guys who play ball with the Feds) Drug dealers make about the same argument in there minds to justify there actions even murder. Its a pure flex of ego and isnt valid.Mind you this commnet wasnt just directed at you it was at most of the posters in general.

I find it a little perplexing that an idividual that partakes in the use of entheogens holds the importance and value of intention as not only insignificant but as a negative aspect of such a practice, given that the negativity is directed at good intent. On the most part we are products of our environment and the pressures that surround us. We justify ourselves by justifying the pressures around us. Alternatively we can change our intent and move away from past unwanted pressures, evolving to our full human potential. Without intent there is no evolution of consiousness which is on the most part why partakers of enthogens are seaching for the God within.

If other methods of seeking alternative levels of consiousness are employed by the same enthogen users, eg meditation, is their main intention just to get smashed?

Why do people seriouly consider whether the time is right to undertake a high level enthogenic experience if they are just wanting to get smashed?

The Australian enthogenic community is in the situation were plant source materials are not conviently commercially available due to legal reasons. These legal pressures have been left behind with good intent (by the majority of folk) resulting in a community that is rich in entheogenic plant propogation knowledge and know how, which is on the most part completely legal.

If evolving away from unwanted pressures is seen as elitist then I guess the Australian entheogenic community is guilty (well in my opinon at least).

Lets hope the US enthogenc community can do the same.

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Seriously no offence, but ya all full of shit!

If it really had anything to do with the plants and not just your personal welfare, you would all want to get these plants out to as much people as possible and create a change in the fabric of society. Hiding in the shadows and flipping out if someone dares write acacia and DMT in the same sentence on the net is just a short term win for a very small minority and a long term loss for the whole of society!

I've just got one question. How can anybody respect and treat the Australian etnohbotanical community seriously when they claim to believe these plants can give enlightenment and do so much for society, well at the same time, actively try to hide and keep these plants away from the majority of society?

The US medical cannabis community didn't get there law reform rolling by hiding in the dark and hoping the government doesn't know. They spent many years doing everything they could to make sure 'everyone' knew, especially the government! Use your head people, it's the fact that people are ignorant about these plants that got them made illegal in the first place.

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