Bouncing Bear Botanicals Raided

[Auxin]

Yeah that confused me a bit too. Kansas was about to enact a law explicitly making synthetic cannabinoids illegal. If the raid had occurred after that law was applicable it would have been most appropriate for the DEA to lead the raid. What I suspect may have happened was they were afraid BBB would dispose of all spice-like stuff before the law banning them took effect and so instead of waiting they used FDA agents so they could have added accusation powers in regard to collecting evidence of intent to sell products for consumption, something the FDA is better at.

Despite some recent cases of retroactive laws I dont expect this law will be retroactive if the guy has the money to fight it, I still strongly suspect they were just using this as a opening to do the bust so they can try and make anything stick against him. Otherwise why not wait until the law he was breaking actually existed?

Its a strange situation and it might just boil down to him seducing the police cheifs 18 yr old son or something and this being done in covert retribution

[Yeti101]

I don't think this case fully make sense until more details of exactly what allegedly occurred are released. The trial is bound to be very interesting and will set important precedents.

I think (and hope) that this might shift attitudes at forums like edot. Such blind faith that nothing will happen to change what they are allow to purchase or grow is unhelpful and amazingly naive. If it looks like a drug, acts like a drug and is marketed like a drug then eventually the authorities will treat it like a drug and bust your arse accordingly.

I can't believe that more isn't being made of this on edot. What's the reaction been like elsewhere?

[tripsis]

I fucking told y'all (people at the DMT-Nexus).

If that comment is directed to folk at DMT-Nexus, why bother posting it here?

I can't believe that more isn't being made of this on edot. What's the reaction been like elsewhere?

The Shroomery has a pretty long thread about it going.

[Torsten]

Before BBB arrived on the scene the 15 or so ethnobotanical suppliers in the world for the most part did not supply dried herbs that contained scheduled substances because it was generally accepted that amongst this group that a dried herb was regarded as the 'container' that contained the illegal drug [the wording used in the US legislation]. IN Australia the same argument raged in the late 90's, with most people claiming that dried herbs do not constitute 'preparations' as per the law, with pretty much only myself arguing the other side. A letter from the TGA that I posted eventually vindicated that my cautious interpretation of the law was correct and that dried herbs are indeed defined as preparations. So, while other businesses in australia and the US opted for the more forgiving defintion, this eventually caught up with some locals and then with some europeans, and now in the USA.

I don't see this as a sign of things to come. I just see this as something that was inevitable and predictable, and that was taken on as a calculated risk by the vendor in order to increase profit. BBB would have never been able to grow as big as it had it it weren't for the fact that he operated under a different set of rules to the old timers. People who do that should probably put some of the profits aside for a good legal fund.

NO, I do not support the tyranny, but there is a difference between pushing boundaries in grey areas where some advances could be made in reforming the laws, in comparison to flouting the laws to excessively profit commercially. I mean, we don't generally feel sorry for big drug dealers and manufacturers, right? That's because most of us probably feel that the profit they make is proportional to the risks they take, ie they are compensated with 'danger money'.

If a business like BPC, basement shaman or any of the other cautious community minded operations got busted I'd think that to be a tragedy. BBB is a bit dfferent in that he took big risks to make big bucks. It didn't quite work out.

Darklight - whatever evidence got seized can be divided up between the FDA and DEA as it applies best. Doesn't matter who raided. FDA laws such as labelling etc are much easier to use to shut down a business and to collect evidence, so this is probably why they went that way.

[Teotzlcoatl]

If that comment is directed to folk at DMT-Nexus, why bother posting it here?

They banned me there. They found it annoying me telling them "don't buy dried cactus chips", "Grow your own plants", etc.

I told y'all!!!

[nabraxas]

The U.S military is paying off the Taliban with bags of gold prevent them from attacking vehicle convoys, proving that there is no real "war" in Afghanistan, merely a business agreement that allows the occupiers to continue their lucrative control of record opium exports while they finalize construction of dozens of new military bases from which to launch new wars.

Conspiracy delusions...fitting a complex problem into a bite sized box

[ref1ect1ons]

Conspiracy delusions...fitting a complex problem into a bite sized box

There is some truth in these stories. Even mainstream stories and scientific sources can be black and white in many ways.

Even if just because communication is not perfect and can distort our understanding of the most fundamental premise.

[mutant]

Conspiracy delusions.

Some people choose not to accept some shit, like label all weird, non-popular ideas a conspiracy theory. it's what they count on. noone will believe or give credit ot crazy theories.

fitting a complex problem into a bite sized box

like fitting enlightment in a blotter, capsule pill, microdot, a bag of mushrooms, an aya brew, a holy cactus etc , huh?

Edited February 8, 2010 by mutant

[mac]

Even if most charges are dropped, Im sure they were more interested in shipping invoices & any paper trails for bulk orders of Mimosa bark & a few others of "interest"

[nabraxas]

There is some truth in these stories.

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense."

The trouble w/most conspiracy theories seems to be that they take some truth & then twist & stretch it to fit their own personal delusional view ov reality, eg: the fact that opium production in Afghanistan has increased since the fall ov the Taliban must mean that a rise in opium production was the goal ov those who caused the Taliban to fall...

like fitting enlightment in a blotter, capsule pill, microdot, a bag of mushrooms, an aya brew, a holy cactus etc , huh?

no-one ever said it was a permanent enlightenment, just like if a schizophrenic stops taking their pills the delusions return...

Edited February 8, 2010 by nabraxas

[bℓσωηG]

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense."

DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING UNTIL IT HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY DENIED...............

Edited February 9, 2010 by blowng

[ref1ect1ons]

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense."

This is exactly what I am saying, I agree, you have said it better. Some things are truly meaningless in many ways, I like this.

My question is why do you label some stories as conspiracy and dismiss them out-of-hand while giving more credit to 'officially sanctioned stories?

Sometimes official stories can be lies as with conspiracy stories, this is all I am saying.

I personally like to read more into some conspriacy stories like 911 or jfk and find out how intriguing it all is, while maintaining a sceptical view towards them, and maintaining a sceptical view towards the government and commercially sponsored media.

All people stretch the truth, not just conspiracy theorist as they are called, perhaps it is because we all have an interest in the people around us, afterall humans number one psychological need is to belong.

Edited February 9, 2010 by ref1ect1ons

[Flip]

Well there's some good coming out of this

I've seen some threads on different forums that tend to have a large number of bouncing bear customers

They're now going on about figuring out how to cultivate plants.

Some are insistent that cacti can only grow from cuttings and that viridis are limited to only the amazon.

Many are complaining that they can't find anyone the net selling live plants or seeds.

Goes to show the kinds of people that patronized BB, and their complete dependence upon dried and prepared materials.

This all goes hand in hand with their non discrete methods of marketing such as...

A Facebook fan page for their outlet store

Second item of note:

The charges against Jonathan Sloan

are State and not Federal charges

.pdf link.

Third:

The Federal DEA is NOT heading up the investigation

it's the FDA (food and drug admin.)

Quite odd.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Flip

[ethnodude]

Third:

The Federal DEA is NOT heading up the investigation

it's the FDA (food and drug admin.)

Quite odd.

 

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist .

CODEX ALIMENTARIUS

Edited February 10, 2010 by ethnodude

[bℓσωηG]

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist .

CODEX ALIMENTARIUS

not for the conspiracy basket http://www.anhcampai...campaigns/codex but yeah there is nothing wrong with asking questions , this is how they got so much damn power to begin with , everyone being complacent or ignorant ...conspiracy shipiboracy

Edited February 10, 2010 by blowng

[ethnodude]

I wouldn't be surprised given the way BBB was marketing these powerful sacred plant tools, there were likely people abusing and ending up in hospital. Once this happens there are investigations into products and how they are being sold. BBB were clearly selling these as drugs for consumption rather than sacred plants.

[Torsten]

I suggest you guys educate yourself about the codex before invoking it's name inappropriately. The codex does not apply to herbs and therapeutics in australia nor does it apply in the USA. In AUstralia the implementation of the codex would actually WEAKEN the restrictions on herbs and herbal products!

[mutant]

Well there's some good coming out of this

I've seen some threads on different forums that tend to have a large number of bouncing bear customers

They're now going on about figuring out how to cultivate plants.Well there's some good coming out of this

 

where's the good in that?

[Teotzlcoatl]

If you don't see the good in people growing their own plants in the current situation that the entheogenic community is in then you are a retard.

[Auxin]

What I wonder is if BBB and other vendors who sold spice, K2, and the like knowing they contained synthetic cannabinoids will face class-action lawsuits for tens of millions in damages.

I was always suspicious of those mixes and never tried them, but if I had smoked up a bag believing it was all-natural and I later found out the vendor knew it was adulterated with synthetic compounds I'd sure as hell sign on to a law suit.

[SunChaser]

Don't know what everyones problem is with the jwh smoking blends? I mean with all the crap there selling as "legal highs" out there at the moment, jwh would have to be the safest, since it just gets you stoned and it's clearly the best quality "legal high" out there, since it basically works just like the real thing. You might get deeper thoughts, slightly euphoric, munchies, then sleepy. Why would anyone have a problem with a substance that just does that?

May not be as good as the real thing, but it's not the vendors fault if the person buying the product is to lazy to google it and find out it contains synthetic cannabinoids, they could never please you guys, if they advertise the actives in the cacti, you all complain, when they don't 'openly' advertise actives in there products you guys complain.

Also it may not be natural, but it does mimic the effects of the most popular ethnobotanical in the world, so it's not really that wrong to be selling it at a ethnobotanical shop.

to top it off, going by what people are saying the jwh didn't really have anything to do with them getting raided, anyway, and none of the charges seem to relate to it. So why do people hate it so much? Is it because it's legal or something? Unless you've actually done it and had an adverse reaction to it, you really have no basis to complain and condemn vendors who might be making a few dollars from it.

It's only because of prohibition that it's around. But it doesn't show up on drug tests, so it makes it a powerful weapon for people to potect themselves against the dangers of the war on drugs.

[Auxin]

You dont see the problem?

Imagine if you bought some herb to smoke and later found out the dealer had artificially spiked it with a pesticide to boost effects, or perhaps a little dab of heroin.

Perhaps thats a bad example since most australians (and americans) dont seem deterred by poisoned or otherwise adulterated marijuana [1] However I'm more careful what I put in my body and I want to establish informed consent, emphasis on informed! If I knew what was in it and smoked anyway I wouldnt complain.

Point is some people were spiking the stuff with synthetic compounds of unknown toxicology and unknown long term side effects while selling it as an all-herbal blend constituted of herbs known to be relatively safe. Then even after being caught people continued to sell it either as all-herbal or just not mentioning that powerful synthetic drugs of unknown toxicology were added. All of that is illegal in every developed country on the planet, and most undeveloped countries too! Its not up to the consumer to investigate every product they buy to find out if synthetic pharmaceuticals or outright poisons were secretly added, when a seller poses something as safe and conforming to a certain list of constituents there should be a reasonable assumption that the claim is truthful and if there are secret ingredients not admitted to that constitutes a breach of trust, a violation of consumer safety, and a violation of truth in marketing laws.

This is no different from the chinese that adulterated milk with melamine for profit (I hope you remember that, a bunch of babies died).

Sue the people.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Auxin

[Teotzlcoatl]

The ONLY things they should ever sell are live plants and viable seeds! This prepared crap is what gets us in trouble!

[SunChaser]

I think this is a little different to the melamine scam, dude. I mean no babies have died that I'm aware of from these jhw blends.

BTW, I wouldn't buy herb from someone that had shit, or laced it with smack and if someone did lace my weed with smack, it would be obivious. Just like if there is some legal high floating around that actually works just like the real thing, it's obivious that it's either illegal or synthetic. You would have had to be very naive to actually believe it was natural and legal.

Anyway, I don't think what they where doing was exactly illegal either, since they've had to make laws to stop people from selling it. Just because it's legal isn't an indication of whether it's safe or not, anyway.

Maybe if they were selling it to kids or as a food, or even if there had been any documented adverse effects from it you'd have a point. But all it does is get you stoned! Big deal. If the government wants to carry on this war on drugs BS, then good on anyone that can find a loophole around it. As long long as what there doing isn't going to cause harm to anyone.

[Flip]

They were selling it to kids

The BBB had a brick and mortar store that sold to basically any and everyone

so much so that the local news stories didn't bother to describe the store or what they sold

when it made the news lead that evening.

Well before this latest raid, they were too far above the radar within their own local

(and very conservative) community in a conservative rural state american state.

When they got raided the first time a few years back their customers were also hauled in

They should have gotten the hint.... but they didn't.

This time ... they once again seem to have handed over

their entire customer and shipping list to the authorities.

All the information was written down and or kept unencrypted.

When doing a little more research on this issue

it was discovered that there had been multiple confiscations

of K2 on the local school grounds from students by teachers.

That really does need to be stressed.

They were selling it directly to school age kids.

So we've got business that pisses into the communal botanical well

No, he and his staff squat and take their turns shitting in it with cactus skins

and overt marketing to the lowest noob end of the drug culture.

He, nor his staff will listen to reason when people called them

(I personally called them in an attempt to discuss my concerns)

They insisted upon pushing the limits and basically were over confident

and cocky about their legal standing as if that was the only concern.

Now they're shut down and I'm thankful.

I wish it hadn't been at the hands of the authorities

and lawmakers.... but at least it's done and put some fear into the willfully naive.

Both legally and culturally,

This really deserves to be watched as well as stressed

the history of events so that people will learn

and that the only way is to really grow from seed

and put the personal time into it...

Quick and Easy is the Enemy.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Flip