Importation of Coca Leaf Tea

[PhoenixSon]

no prosecution because it was quaratine possibly.

[mr me]

no prosecution because it was quaratine possibly.

 

You can still be prosecuted, AQIS just needs to contact Federal police

[Torsten]

i heard yesterday that the importer was sent a standard letter saying the material could be returned to the sender or destroyed, & apparently that was the end of the matter, no prosecution for importing prohibited material etc.

 

customs do not send letters like that. that's a quarantine letter.

[nabraxas]

i don't know the exact details as i'm hearing the story second hand.

i agree that that type ov letter comes from quarantine, but that's quite intriguing.

those Delisse tea bags come in sealed packs, as a tea i'd have thought it would have passed the quarantine tests.

also if quarantine did have it tested & it was identified as illegal why wouldn't they pass it over to customs?

[Torsten]

quarantine will only clear items based on botanical names [with a few exceptions of very common foods]. if there is no botanical name on the item they will treat it as unidentified herbal material and offer re-export or destruction as the only options. Even if the product listed the botanical name, it would still not pass as the herb for this species has not been assessed.

quarantine often pass items onto customs that they feel are customs prohibited, but not always. Most of the quarantine inspection people are quite incompetent either as a result of poor training or simply because that's the kind of staff the mail division attracts [you thought centrelink was bad, try dealing with these numbnuts on a weekly basis!]. If the customs warning isn't right in front of them then most of them won't act on it.

[tripsis]

Have to love the incompetence of the body that protects our country from the rest of the world.

[michaelangelica]

What about something more sustainable like a plant?

What are coca "nibs"?

[folias]

Friends tell me that their kilos of Coca leaf often just don't arrive!

Julian.

[occidentalis]

What are coca "nibs"?

 

Sounds like you are getting confused between coca and cacao (or cocoa) - Theobroma.

[VOID]

IMO it is a grey area...

SWIM loves his coca infusions, he has never contemplated an extraction or ever would, the tea is a nice healthy way to enjoy this wonderful plant, if a big day of work is planned a bag or two with some Baking soda does help motivation.

SWIM has ordered "coca Trash bags" from Peru which contains 1000 coca tea bags (about .9 gram per bag) 4 times now every time the same things happen.

1) It always takes over 4 weeks

2) It is always opened by Australian Quarantine and Customs with yellow and green tape attached

3) It always has literature from Australian Customs and Quarantine included such as "Opened for Inspection- Customs and Border protection found nothing of concern in your parcel or letter and did not remove items".

IMO customs could not be as incompetent on all the occasions to inspect, open and pass a plant material from Peru South American with no idea on what it is, if they had no idea it should have been rejected and destroyed on the basis of no botanical name attached?

IMO Some coca products would not be allowed through and some would.

Here is why I think it is a grey area to mail tea bags into Australia or the USA.

Australian Narcotic Drugs Act 1967

ARTICLE 27

Additional provisions relating to coca leaves

1. The Parties may permit the use of coca leaves for the preparation of a

flavouring agent, which shall not contain any alkaloids, and, to the extent

necessary for such use, may permit the production, import, export, trade in and

possession of such leaves.

2. The Parties shall furnish separately estimates (article 19) and statistical

information (article 20) in respect of coca leaves for preparation of the

flavouring agent, except to the extent that the same coca leaves are used for the

extraction of alkaloids and the flavouring agent, and so explained in the

estimates and statistical information.

I say grey because I think that the Packaging of coca into tea bags constitutes "preparation of a

flavouring agent" as tea is water flavoured by a leaf infusion.

The Leaf on it's own may or may not pass through, I believe it will have less chance.

As far as Delisse being decocanised (no where on the packaging does it state this), I have found no information stating that "is has been", I have found plenty of information stating that "it may be". I have also read that this is a marketing ploy by many of the coca manufactures as to have the tea passed, I am not sure what kind of tests are involved in finding out the legal 4milligrams of cocaine as deemed by the "Single Convention in Narcotic Drugs" (as stated on sellers web page mentioned in a previous post)and 4+ milligrams being illegal, IMO it would not be cheap and to test every shipment of tea would be a costly exercise.

Even if is true and the tea can be decocanised, it still has at least 2-4 milligrams of illegal Alkaloid, from my research you can not have 100% alkaloid free coca plant material....IMO a smart marketing trick employed by south American companies, it goes from black and white to a shade of grey.

 

I would not expect a knock at the door, if it were that serious none of SWIMS tea bags would have made it through border protection.

I hope that the importation of this plant continues to be a grey area as long as you do no go ordering truck loads of teabags and start extractions, just enjoy the tea as it was meant to be enjoyed, the tea on it's own is very enjoyable.

 

 

Peace,

VOID

Edited November 12, 2010 by VOID

[occidentalis]

I think the flavouring agent thing is just there to cover Coca Cola and other companies that use decocainised coca in their soft drinks. I don't think it would apply to the tea bags.

I do not believe Delisse to be decocainised as it is the most popular brand in South America and people there wouldn't waste their time on a decocainised product.

I think that Customs has just not caught on to this yet. It seems you are maybe also slightly confused about Customs and Quarantine (AQIS); as they are entirely separate agencies and do not always communicate.

[VOID]

I think the flavouring agent thing is just there to cover Coca Cola and other companies that use decocainised coca in their soft drinks. I don't think it would apply to the tea bags.

Maybe though it is still a preparation used to flavour water"The Parties may permit the use of coca leaves for the preparation of a

flavouring agent" i.e Coca leaves being the flavouring agent and Tea bags bags being the preparation of the flavouring agent, I am just thinking and picking apart the wording....Wording is everything when it comes to the Law.

I do not believe Delisse to be decocainised as it is the most popular brand in South America and people there wouldn't waste their time on a decocainised product.

Agreed

I think that Customs has just not caught on to this yet. It seems you are maybe also slightly confused about Customs and Quarantine (AQIS); as they are entirely separate agencies and do not always communicate.

 

SWIM has a friend that also order the tea bags in another state, surely someone from customs must know. I also noticed that the above mentioned seller only sells tea bags on their web site and has done for a while, there has to be a loop hole with tea bags? It is the only item SWIMS Peru based seller is willing to ship tea bags to Australia, he is not willing to ship loose leaf tea stating that it may not clear Australian customs, though the tea bags will?

Tea bags have been around for a long time, surely there must have been someone from customs bring it up in a meeting?

My parcel was checked by both Australian Customs and Quarantine, all literature supplied.

I am just trying to find out why so many are let into the country and a seller with an Australian ABN is legally allowed to sell tea bags?

Edited November 11, 2010 by VOID

[VOID]

Sorry re hit the add reply button

Edited November 9, 2010 by VOID

[Torsten]

IMO it is a grey area...

no, it is not. all cocaine containing material is definitely regarded as an illegal drug in every state. State drug law overrides federal drug laws, so even if there is a loophole in the federal law, it makes no difference. Most states directly schedule coca leaves as illegal drugs.

Federally the criminal code act specifically schedules Erythroxylum plant matter that contains cocaine as 'border controlled' and hence enforcable by customs.

There is just no ambiguity about the law, no matterhow many parcels you receive without problems, the next one could land you in jail.

Here is why I think it is a grey area to mail tea bags into Australia or the USA.

Australian Narcotic Drugs Act 1967

ARTICLE 27

Additional provisions relating to coca leaves

1. The Parties may permit the use of coca leaves for the preparation of a

flavouring agent, which shall not contain any alkaloids, and, to the extent

necessary for such use, may permit the production, import, export, trade in and

possession of such leaves.

2. The Parties shall furnish separately estimates (article 19) and statistical

information (article 20) in respect of coca leaves for preparation of the

flavouring agent, except to the extent that the same coca leaves are used for the

extraction of alkaloids and the flavouring agent, and so explained in the

estimates and statistical information.

I say grey because I think that the Packaging of coca into tea bags constitutes "preparation of a

flavouring agent" as tea is water flavoured by a leaf infusion.

This article allows for exemptions that MAY be given to those who apply for them. ie, this is based on a licensing system and you don't have a license.

You also apparently missed the bit where it says that the material has to be devoid of alkaloids.

[VOID]

IMO it is a grey area...

no, it is not. all cocaine containing material is definitely regarded as an illegal drug in every state. State drug law overrides federal drug laws, so even if there is a loophole in the federal law, it makes no difference. Most states directly schedule coca leaves as illegal drugs.

Federally the criminal code act specifically schedules Erythroxylum plant matter that contains cocaine as 'border controlled' and hence enforcable by customs.

There is just no ambiguity about the law, no matterhow many parcels you receive without problems, the next one could land you in jail.

Thank you for your reply Torsten, I understand what you are saying, though it still does not answer my main question on why it is entering Australia with extreme ease and has done for many years? Incompetence of customs officials, it just does not sit right with me....The customs officials must have a reference hand book which includes items arriving from south America, maybe coca tea bags is not listed? Why have I never heard or read about anybody getting prosecuted or even fined for the importation of coca tea?

I will take on board your comment about the next order landing SWIM jail and if it is decided that another order will be placed, a phone call to Australian customs will be made before placing any order.

Here is why I think it is a grey area to mail tea bags into Australia or the USA.

Australian Narcotic Drugs Act 1967

ARTICLE 27

Additional provisions relating to coca leaves

1. The Parties may permit the use of coca leaves for the preparation of a

flavouring agent, which shall not contain any alkaloids, and, to the extent

necessary for such use, may permit the production, import, export, trade in and

possession of such leaves.

2. The Parties shall furnish separately estimates (article 19) and statistical

information (article 20) in respect of coca leaves for preparation of the

flavouring agent, except to the extent that the same coca leaves are used for the

extraction of alkaloids and the flavouring agent, and so explained in the

estimates and statistical information.

I say grey because I think that the Packaging of coca into tea bags constitutes "preparation of a

flavouring agent" as tea is water flavoured by a leaf infusion.

This article allows for exemptions that MAY be given to those who apply for them. ie, this is based on a licensing system and you don't have a license.

You also apparently missed the bit where it says that the material has to be devoid of alkaloids..

 

I did not miss the Alkaloid statement, from my reading coca leaf can not actually fully be decocanised. I was under the impression that under the UN "Single Convention in Narcotic Drugs" to be within acceptable limits as stated in the above mentioned Australian sellers web page under products Descriptions applying the Coca Leaf tea and wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca_tea:

"As coffee can be decaffeinated, the coca tea can also be decocainized; however, after undergoing such a process it will still contain a minute quantity of the drug (about 4 milligrams per tea-bag).When the cocaine is removed, the amount of cocaine is small enough for the product to legally sell in the USA according to the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs. In the 1980s the tea was used to wean cocaine addicts off of the drug."

Though after reading the "Single Convention in Narcotic Drugs" it is exactly the same as our article 27, I can not find the above statement in the "Single Convention in Narcotic Drugs" even though it is stated on the Australian and other web pages.

As I stated above if it is wording I am looking at then you are right saying "shall not contain any alkaloids" as in Article 27.

This then raises more questions:

If this is the case for the UN as stated in Article 27 of the "Single Convention in Narcotic Drugs" then the USA must also need to adhere to the same laws? Why is Amazon.com allowed to sell coca tea on their USA web site (at over inflated pricing) locally in the USA and internationally when Article 27 is clearly worded the same as here in Australia? From my reading orders place with Amazon.com come shipped out of both Peru and the USA, albeit I have read that they are limited to what is deemed as "personal use"? I would read this as the exact same law that applying here, why then is a huge company like Amazon.com above the law, unless there is a grey area/loop hole or perhaps is it just a blind eye.

Does this mean that the above mentioned Australian supplier has an exemption to sell Coca tea with at least 2 milligrams of Alkaloid present to anyone who cares to purchase it in Australia and has just not been spotted by any law enforcement agency or anti-drug activist trolling the WEB?

I understand what you are saying, there IMO are still a lot of why's unaccounted for?

Peace,

VOID

Edited November 12, 2010 by VOID

[Mr Stay Puft]

a call to customs may be the nail in the coffin for those getting it in atm!

[Mr Stay Puft]

firstly, it is illegal, Torsten has said this numerous times in this thread, it is material containing a highly illegal substance, and VOID if u cant believe that its entry in the country is based on the incmpetence of customs and other government bodies then you obviously havn't dealt with them very much...

secondly, publishing a vendor website i think is not in the best interests of the forum, its users or the vendor himself... this means that if caught with the tea, and associated with this forum it will be very difficult to argue ignorance when there are topics like this!

thirdly, these kind of topics are what causes the clamping down by customs on these types of things... dont ruin it for everyone whom has been getting them into the country for this long.... we do not want to bring this to the attention of the authorites whom may be scouting forums like these!

[VOID]

firstly, it is illegal, Torsten has said this numerous times in this thread, it is material containing a highly illegal substance, and VOID if u cant believe that its entry in the country is based on the incmpetence of customs and other government bodies then you obviously havn't dealt with them very much...

secondly, publishing a vendor website i think is not in the best interests of the forum, its users or the vendor himself... this means that if caught with the tea, and associated with this forum it will be very difficult to argue ignorance when there are topics like this!

thirdly, these kind of topics are what causes the clamping down by customs on these types of things... dont ruin it for everyone whom has been getting them into the country for this long.... we do not want to bring this to the attention of the authorites whom may be scouting forums like these!

 

I do not disagree with Torsten in the slightest, l merely wanted to share some observations I have made and whispers I have heard which I find peculiar.

It depends on what you mean by limited dealings with customs, I have had interactions with customs in 28 countries around the world some of them on multiple occasions, whilst travelling over a 2 year period.

My intention was never to bring attention to this matter just to reply to a topic and shed my point of view and my point of view only through the extensive reading I have done, including references and examples which I believed to be valid.

I do not know why the vendor posted his/her advert but I guess he/she felt it was somehow legal...

I did not start the topic I merely replied, I do not advocate anyone importing an illegal substance and never would, I guess I will wonder in silence...It is a shame that topics like this are not open for what I believe to be a sensible debate, open for discussion on forums such as this covering "Legal Matters".

On a final note SWIM will not attempt to order any more tea bags until he is sure he will not end up on the wrong side of the law, which is what he was trying to initially find out by replying to this topic.

Peace,

VOID

Edited November 10, 2010 by VOID

[Mr Stay Puft]

sorry if you took offence but I am not being rude or dismissive, i would like to get to the bottom of this but there is nothing to get to the bottom of, it is illegal.

its unfortunate that we cannot talk about this openly without some downstream consequences but the reality is that there will be consequences including the clamping down on the importation of such products!

[VOID]

sorry if you took offence but I am not being rude or dismissive, i would like to get to the bottom of this but there is nothing to get to the bottom of, it is illegal.

its unfortunate that we cannot talk about this openly without some downstream consequences but the reality is that there will be consequences including the clamping down on the importation of such products!

 

Hey Man I did not take any offence what so ever just making my point, it is what I hope this forum is about, can't really talk about it anywhere else can we?

My ultimate feeling is that if it is illegal... Over the years there has been a push to legalise Coca leaf through the UN and this maybe the beginning of the laws relaxing, maybe a test..I am not sure I'm just putting it out there, I still have trouble with the customs officials being incompetent for all these years.

Have a read of this which I find very interesting, Bolivian President Chews Coca During Speech At UN

Peace,

VOID

Edited November 10, 2010 by VOID

[occidentalis]

Different countries implement the UN treaties on drugs in different ways, and change will occur at state and national levels before it is formalised in international agreements. Look at Cannabis in the US and to a lesser extent in Australis. It is managed very differently in different jurisdictions.

While you might be right that Coca leaf may be legalised through the UN, that won't necessarily have any effect on Australia and if it does, it probably won't be for quite a long time.

[Torsten]

There is a big differecne between 'legal' and 'getting away with it'. eg, bongs are illegal in NSW, but police have 'discretionary powers' which means that unless it suits their purpose [eg gaining entry to do a search] they don't care about bongs.

I do not know why coca tea gets ignored, however I have my theories.

1) incompetence. it may well trigger a swab test or a canine, but then confuses the inspector by being a green leaf so they assume it must just be contamination.

2) customs doesn't like seizing products that are used by ethnic groups. This is probably because any judge will just throw the case out or impose penalties that are not worthwhile all the hassle for customs. Seizures often result in legal challenges, and the last thing they would want is for the laws to be knocked out by a challenge.

3) customs does not want to raise the profile of this product as it will just increase attention to it and may drive the import underground [eg smuggled in falsely labelled containers]. Open trade means customs knows the quantity that is arriving and can keep tabs on where it is going. I'd assume that someone with repeated imports would have their name on a database for future reference.

4) customs does not decide what products come in and and which don't. This is done by the liason officer of the 'community protection group' at the TGA. There may well be a decision by these people that coca tea is of little risk to the community and should be allowed in. I doubt this because the same group also decided that ephedra seeds were not allowed in because they could be grown into ephedra plants, which contain ephedrine which can be used to make drugs. This at a time when neither ephedra herb, nor plants nor seeds were illegal imports or illegal in any state! In fact I regards the community protection group as they biggest tight asses around, so probably best to ignore #4.

Bottom line is that there is no question about the illegality of coca leaves. And this includes decocanised material as there is no legal limit for cocaine in australia. ie, if it is detectable by GC/MS then it is illegal. The vendor that posted here does not agree with me on this and seems to be lucky enough. But he also caters to the ethnic community which is pretty much a get-out-of-jail-free card in these sort of instances.

[VOID]

Torsten, thank you for your well thought out reply, there is nothing you state above which I can not but totally agree with.

The only ipoint I had not considered was point 1 and still have trouble accepting that if it were picked up by say a canine "flag" then I believe that the would warrant further investigation and more detailed testing i.e if tea bags were constantly being "flagged" something is going on which may not be kosher, though your argument is very valid.

Points 2 and 3 I consider myself to me the most logical, I lean towards point 2 being the most sound as I am sure there must be a minority of South American immigrants who honestly would have no idea that their daily cuppa could possibly land them in Hot water so to speak. If prosecution was a normal course of action, it IMO would surely be thrown out wasting valuable court resources.

As you stated above:

he also caters to the ethnic community which is pretty much a get-out-of-jail-free card in these sort of instances

If this is then the case and courts do not discriminate between races who are all ultimately deemed Australian, then logically this must apply to all who reside in the land whether you come from Peru or Tim-buck-too. Say I had a south American FOAF who gave me a cuppa oneday, told me he brought it in from is home land where it is drunk daily like coffee, I liked it so I bought some for myself not knowing what is was on a controlled imports list, would I be treated any different to him?

I do agree that you maybe put on a data base, as from what I have read this is what is happening with Amazon.com (who are kind of acting as a silent customs agent)"the purchases are limited, you can only buy a maximum amount of 8 100ct boxes in a 45 days period" though I have nothing to back up this statement taken from another site... This could be a reason for the statement made by Julian rings truth true to me:

Friends tell me that their kilos of Coca leaf often just don't arrive!

IMO if people are not over importing what is deemed to be personal use for tea purposes only, IMO it MAY slip by...Though this is my opinion only and I could be totally wrong, landing the next person into a lot of trouble..If anyone imports enough to do an extraction and they let it slip through, I think you may then expect a knock on your door and if chemicals are found to support a case for extraction...Well, I think the penalty then would be extremely severe and an example would be made to deter anyone else, frankly you asked for it.

Finally I accept that it is clearly illegal and if it is being let through I can hypothesise all I like , but ultimately you can still get into a hell of a lot of trouble if caught as you WILL be breaking the law....

Peace,

VOID

[The Dude]

...I am sure there must be a minority of South American immigrants who honestly would have no idea that their daily cuppa could possibly land them in Hot water so to speak.

 

Top points for pun of the day, have you ever thought of working for a newspaper?

Informative thread. Cheers guys!

[shruman]

As far as I'm aware customs do'nt let coca tea through. If they find it & know what it is they will confiscate it & send you a nasty letter.

A friend showed me 2 of these letters he had recieved telling him that what was trying to do was illegal. 1 Kg each letter.

If its being held up & then allowed in its most likely AQIS not customs.

You should probly remove that link VOID as we have rules about incriminating others.

Edited November 12, 2010 by shruman