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Need advice on discriminatory attack

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I come from a small town in Qld and there has been a recent dispute in the local newsagency. A muslim woman was dressed in her burqa and entered the newsagency with her husband. The store owner allowed the husband to purchase a newspaper, however, he refused to serve the woman. The story of the words exchanged during the encounter differ between the store owner and the woman. The woman says that the owner said that he refused to serve her because he "doesn't serve her type'. The owner says that he didn't say that and the reason he refused to serve her was because her face was covered and he was concerned for the security of the store. I understand that you can refuse to serve somebody if they are wearing a helmet or something which hides your facial identity. Would this woman have any chance of bringing this together as case for the legal system? Personally, from previous experience, I know that the store owner is a backward small minded bigot and I have no doubt in my mind that this was discriminatory attack.. Does anybody have any advice for this woman in this situation? A FOAF has seen the tape which was recording during the dispute but unfortunately there was no auditory recording..

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Although it seems likely that there is some kind of discrimination going on. I cant see any reason to make it a legal issue.

Even if it was blatant that he was not serving her because he didn't like the look of her. What could the law really do about it? Maybe he could lose his business license or something, i don't know. It sucks sure, but its only going to cost a bunch of money to go to court.

Like you said. If he wanted to use the argument that it was a security issue. In the eyes of the law, he is probably within his rights to do that. Regardless of his true motives.

It really depends what you/she/they want to get out of it. Money? an apology? make him lose his store?

But I'm by no means an expert on legal matters. Just my thoughts.

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One of the few cultural practices I have a problem with is the SERIOUS, BLATANT oppression of women by people with Islamic or middle eastern associations.

Sorry, but I'm with the store owner... take that fucking mask off and I'll sell you a magazine, I don't sell things to hooded men (or women).

If some black dude came in with his face covered by a bandanna they would have probably shot him, or at least called the police!

Where's Baph when you need him? :lol: Don't get too extreme on us Baph!

Edited by Teotz'

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People should use common sense. If he had a problem with her wearing a burqa he should of said something when she came in. If you walk into a bank with a motorbike helmet they don't wait for you to get to the counter before asking you to take it off. It's probable that he is a moron in any case.

I agree... and ya he probably was a racist moron.

Would a child wearing a full spiderman mask be required to take it off?

How about a full-grown 50 year old man wearing (nothing but) a spiderman mask? :lol:

Edited by Teotz'

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Im assuming that you're not in anyway 'middle eastern'.

Well no, I'm Asian, and some of my family lives in Bangladesh which I visit every few years. There are many Islamic people in Bangladesh and I think I have a general idea.... I've also been to Turkey... which is very beautiful and very Islamic!

Im sure there is quite a lot of women who are quite happy to wear it and it might not mean anything more significant to them than a wedding ring.

Yes the ones who are brainwashed! Some women HATE IT but they are still forced to wear it! Honestly the only ones who "enjoy" it are the "I know my place" kind of women! This is just what I'm drawing from my own interactions with Islamic culture as well as having Islamic family members. My parents are Christian, however.

At the end of the day it is someones choice to wear whatever the hell they want. It's not our job to ban it because we don't understand it, particularly here in the west where people have a lot more freedom. Obviously in somewhere like afghanistan the woman ARE blatantly oppressed a lot of the time.

It's the entire Islamic world.... not just places like Afghanistan!

Edited by Teotz'

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I agree, the store owner sounds like a bigot.

Edited by Teotz'

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Sorry, but I'm with the store owner... take that fucking mask off and I'll sell you a magazine, I don't sell things to hooded men (or women).
Now thats pretty obviously bigotry for a simple reason: if it were based on a genuine security concern no one in their right mind would cop an asinine attitude to, and refuse the business of, someone they thought may very well be armed and dangerous. They would just poke the alarm button and be all like 'yes ma'am, anything you say ma'am'. However, if one thinks another to be harmless and simply of a creed they perceive to be fundamentally inferior (like in the way which you seem to indicate those labeled with things like "brainwashed" "know-their-place" women are inferior to you) and they refuse them business based on that, that is just genuine old fashioned repugnant bigotry. Not even very creative bigotry. I dislike bigotry quite severely but even more than my dislike of bigotry is my dislike of lazy stagnant bigotry, at least show some creativity in your oppression of people!

You acknowledge that some women that wear the burqa do so out of genuine desire to do so rather than it being forced on them so why are you intent on forcing your belief system on them? More importantly, regardless of their private views on their clothing, how is it any business of yours whatsoever? I've already ruled out the security argument so I presume the most probable scenario is that you think your sociopolitical and religious views are fundamentally superior to the people which you criticize. So on the assumption that my hypothesis as to your motives is correct, seeing as how your a self appointed omniscient prophet of universal moral principals, please tell me how I, all my descendants, and people of every human culture and social creed should behave. I'd very much like to know how my culture and practices are viewed by someone who thinks her self a superior, neigh a God Like! being :)

... or not :P

My personal policy is just to mind my own fucking business when it comes to how people look and what I think it represents and to give them the benefit of the doubt knowing that they are probably just regular people doing their own thing in their own way, but to each their own.

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Now thats pretty obviously bigotry for a simple reason: if it were based on a genuine security concern no one in their right mind would cop an asinine attitude to, and refuse the business of, someone they thought may very well be armed and dangerous. They would just poke the alarm button and be all like 'yes ma'am, anything you say ma'am'. However, if one thinks another to be harmless and simply of a creed they perceive to be fundamentally inferior (like in the way which you seem to indicate those labeled with things like "brainwashed" "know-their-place" women are inferior to you) and they refuse them business based on that, that is just genuine old fashioned repugnant bigotry. Not even very creative bigotry. I dislike bigotry quite severely but even more than my dislike of bigotry is my dislike of lazy stagnant bigotry, at least show some creativity in your oppression of people!

Auxin don't you understand?! I'm angry that these women allow themselves to be oppressed in such a manner! I am not the oppressor! I believe they can do whatever they want, but they themselves don't believe that they have the freedom of choice to wear what the want! The men in their lives decide that for them! The whole thing is about men having the power and controlling women!

I'd very much like to know how my culture and practices are viewed by someone who thinks her self a superior, neigh a God Like! being

Auxin... I really hope you don't think that I think of myself as a "God-like" being. Geeze.

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I was only half serious anyway :P Just giving you a ration of shit while trying to point out that indeed you are a milder oppressor by imposing your beliefs on an outgroup that you really shouldnt be oversimplifying and ascribing foreign ideals to. Your right, in some places and some groups the men have say over what the women can wear, that doesnt automatically make it oppression given that its in the context of another culture and people.. which are quite diverse even within a unified culture. Perhaps its just a matter of perspective, as one who leans somewhat toward the submissive BDSM type of personality maby I'm more in tune with acknowledging that consensually giving up a little power in one way doesnt inherently make a relationship unequal or unhealthy, just different. You say you would punish those women for not fighting against what you perceive as an injustice- a breach of moral conduct, yet you denounce those who would punish those same women for what they perceive as a breach of moral conduct, ie. them Not wearing a burqa. Doesnt that seem strange to you? Your advocating the same as the alleged oppressors with nothing but a different imposed ideal. Instead of a punishment framework for dealing with people maby there could be peace and understanding?

Oh and I think we are straying a bit far from the OP's question :wink:

Edited by Auxin
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Auxin don't you understand?! I'm angry that these women allow themselves to be oppressed in such a manner!

Irony.

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.

Edited by lsdreamz

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i won't pretend to have anything like a sensitive, balanced, and well-thought opinion in these matters.....

it annoys me taking off my helmet, which has a clear visor so that most of my face is visible anyway, when other people are masking their entire face and body. if somebody can use a shop without ANY of their features visible, then why are helmets with clear visors such a big deal? and tinted visors are gonna be lifted anybody, nobody walks around with their visor down.

why aren't armed robbers using burqas yet? if you approach a bank wearing a balaclava then you rouse suspicion, and if you remove it during the getaway you're still wearing the same identifiable clothes. dressing up like a muslim seems ideal for armed robbery, it even gives you somewhere to hide the weapon. what are our robbers using their brains for eh?

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Prior to 911 we wouldn't even be having this conversation, it's remarkable how far the scaremongering has come. 10 years ago you could go and have a feed in Lakemba and be surrounded by lot's of women wearing their traditional attire and not bat an eye lid. Now apparently they all have guns under their garments and are bank robbers/terrorists.

H.

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you completely twisted my post. i was saying that it seems foolish of armed robbers not to use muslim clothing because it's one of the few ways to wear a disguise in public without rousing suspicion.

since we're gonna play the silly reaction game, fuck, all motorcycle riders are robbers so why aren't masked children and muslim women all robbers too? it came up in the aussie media maybe a year ago and i recall mixed response but isn't it reasonable enough?

anyway, i guess i do have a problem with things like this being imposed on people because of sex or whatever, to me it's akin to forcing jews to wear arm bands, and people will argue culture, etc, blah, and say that i'm a racist, but i'm an idealist and i don't accept this shit as reasonable to force upon another person (not that i can do anything about it, but i won't defend it). just like australian men making jokes about women belonging in the kitchen or whatever, fuck off back in time where you belong with your patriarchy. i'm manifesting a beautiful utopia and your dominator attitude is unwelcome :)

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I wasn't reacting to you Thunder, it's just a generalised feeling amongst many people that these women are some sort of security threat, unwarranted propaganda of sorts. Bank robbers in the past used motor cycle helmets to hide their faces, so I can understand why they made that law, but because two planes flew into a building we have to impune an entire section of a culture...well I mean really, unless there is some eveidence the pilots wore burka's then I suppose that we could ban pilots from wearing them. What next Indian women in sari's are banned cause they might have a grenade launcher hidden under there.

H.

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honestly, that's silly. a sari is no different from any other clothing, it doesn't hide your identity.

plus you are sarcastically suggesting it's wrong to force people to wear certain clothing :blink:

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Wow, I didn't expect such a response. Thanks for all of your passionate replies. The woman has lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission and hopefully something will come from it. I think she wants an apology. I'm not sure if its' a good thing, but people in town have heard about what has happened and have decided to boycott the store.. I'm not usually a fan of rumormongering but in this case i certainly don't mind what happens to the reputation of this man. May karma work its ways.

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blah blah blah stupid conversation...shop owner can do and serve who and what he wants.

women can wear whatever they want...even if its no identity, or a divine identity.

ugly women are worse than a burqa.

muslim men know their responsibilities, maybe they dont even beat their wives as much as some queenslanders...

anyone who thinks something wrong happened in this situation is a total wanker out looking for trouble...and fair enough, the path of trouble willl be long and annoying, so enjoy.

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Well if i were to walk into a shop dressed in medievil armour ,carrying a sword the police would just shoot me. Some people just have to make a statement about WHO they are, and well then they will suffer the consequenses .

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Ok well from reading half of your posts, the most of you are talking about what I would've done or If i was the store owner or IF he was being racsist, HOWEVER by using what information is given to US. The CLEAR CUT CASE IS, as a store owner and retail seller you have every right to NOT allow the selling of your product to any ONE person, for whatever the hell reason you feel. Yes everyone in the public has the right to come in and look but as soon as your asked to leave or told you cannot purchase anything in that store. THE OWNER does not "HAVE" to stand there and give you a reason, if he feels threatened or doesn't like the look of you whether or not you are from his country or some other country is beside the point. He has the right to decease the selling of any of his products to you immediately at any one time. He can sell to your wife, he can sell to your husband, but if he doesn't want to sell to you, tough luck. However if he / she was making racist remarks to you in your face. Then he is liable by law depending on what country your in and what laws they have against racism. Also it is stated by most organisations that if you enter a complex with your helmet, cloths / clothes covering your face you wont be served and or you will be asked to remove it.

From a non BIAS point of view, the owner will win any court case if it is taken that far due to it being an absolute security risk, and him having the right to not sell to any one person at any one time, and the ladies face being covered, doesn't matter if you come from overseas guys, this is Australia and we have laws to protect us when in a business.

I would kindly suggest the lady starts to adopt the Australian way of life or she will find it very hard to purchase anything in the future with a masked face.

Conclusion is the lady has no grounds to stand on once the recording shows her face covered.

Kind Regards,

Arieon

Edited by Arieon

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I would kindly suggest the lady starts to adopt the Australian way of life or she will find it very hard to purchase anything in the future with a masked face.

Conclusion is the lady has no grounds to stand on once the recording shows her face covered.

Kind Regards,

Arieon

Yes... lets all become more Australian. :rolleyes:

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One of the few cultural practices I have a problem with is the SERIOUS, BLATANT oppression of women by people with Islamic or middle eastern associations.

Christ, you are such a tosser.

I would kindly suggest the lady starts to adopt the Australian way of life or she will find it very hard to purchase anything in the future with a masked face.

And so are you. Which "Australian Way of Life" do you mean ? The 200-year-old one of post White Invasion, or the 100,000 year old Australian way of life that the former has all but decimated. What the fuck right do any of us have in saying which cultures should or should not be here in this land when the short history is that of violent invasion ? Muslims haven't settled here by force, have they. Or perhaps you haven't considered that in your "Australian" way of thinking.

Fuck I hate anti-islamists.

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^

I'm the only fucking true Aussie in this country and all these opinions can Phuck up!

I have aboriginal blood and family lines that settled this land as both Irish and English..

And I reckon (lol-"wankers"-lol) that we're all just humans, so its sad if some of us need to dress like Ninjas every fucking day everywhere and pretend like its religion, or has some actual virtue.

Unless you are a fucking Ninja- in which case you'll do it in the dark- and thats another thing i'l happily hurl shit about, being that I spent half my life at ninjitsu.. :)

Its all bullshit anyway, and why do we all forget that all our belief systems were made up in the first place!

Fucking rainbow serpent!

Yeah sorry- the advice:

Get some behavioral flexibility!

Edited by G*P
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And so are you. Which "Australian Way of Life" do you mean ? The 200-year-old one of post White Invasion, or the 100,000 year old Australian way of life that the former has all but decimated. What the fuck right do any of us have in saying which cultures should or should not be here in this land when the short history is that of violent invasion ? Muslims haven't settled here by force, have they. Or perhaps you haven't considered that in your "Australian" way of thinking.

Fuck I hate anti-islamists.

Noone here is being anti anything, "australian way" in this country when going into town / city / anywhere to purchase something over the counter is to be and feel free at the same time as giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Noone is arguing that australia was setup violently, but we are here to change and people do change. To be honest your rambling on about hate in a opressionised way. We have enough hate within our communities as it is. Maybe take a deep breathe or two and release whatever it is you have trapped inside you. If you want to purchase things hooded and masked then that's your choice.

Arieon.

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it should be your choice.... and i'm sure some women are happy to be masked........ sadly i suspect in many cases it's the husbands choice and that's why i made my negative posts and can't accept this shit within myself as reasonable behaviour.

it's no better or worse than western parents trying to force a certain behaviour, lifestyle or career path on their children.. same basic shit, one person exercising control over another as though they somehow own them or know better. if your behaviour is not destructive or unfair nobody should be able to make you change it.

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