Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl

[Fractalhead]

This is a prime example of an application for TLC. If people run their different kratom preparations on TLC plated prior to bioassay, we might be able to correlate the changes in TLC profile with changes in potency and/or qualitative effects. I doubt (m)any humans have tried these compounds in their pure form.

[Zarathustra]

Fractalhead:

This is a prime example of an application for TLC. If people run their different kratom preparations on TLC plated prior to bioassay, we might be able to correlate the changes in TLC profile with changes in potency and/or qualitative effects. I doubt (m)any humans have tried these compounds in their pure form.

Is this something a non-chemist could do at home, with appropriate instruction? How much would materials cost, and are they accessible?

If not, how would one go about having this done, and how much might it cost?

I'm willing to put the time & effort into it, as well as a little bit of money, if someone tells me what to do.

If interested, we could setup appropriate test cases. I'd also like to run multiple sources through the same test cases, such as kavaman (I don't have any of this yet, but I have his e-mail address now and will order some), iamshaman.com, and Daniel Siebert's sagewisdom.org. Any other suppliers I should know about?

Thanks,

Mr. Kratom

[Fractalhead]

One of the beauties of thin layer chromatography is the ease and simplicity of it. Just about anyone can do it with a little instruction. Actually interpreting TLC plates while developing new protocols with new and unknown compounds requires a bit of chemical nouse but once a protocol is optimised, anyone can do it. Not having standards makes things even more confusing and it is easy to make incorrect conclusions from TLC plates if you aren't careful.

Its not expensive. Each test costs about 50c and most of this is to cover the TLC plate. I'm slowly trying to establish a supply of analytical tools (including TLC plates) to amateur and hobbyist chemists but this will take some time you with some as I'm very busy studying at the moment. Perhaps, someone else can send you some TLC plates. I can probably help with instruction. Torsten might know the solvent system Daniel Siebert used in his TLC analysis of various 'kratom' products. In fact, I should email and ask for a scan of the TLC plates since from these we can determine which spots on our plates correspond to mitragynine by relative Rfs and then we won't even need standards. Would be nice to get to the bottom of this oxidative curiosity...

[Zarathustra]

Cool! So how about you e-mail Siebert and ask him to send you a scan of his results (you may as well also ask him about the solvents he used.) His e-mail address is [email protected] (his web site mentions to set the "importance" flag to ensure that he reads it.)

Myself, I will start educating myself on TLC and order some plates. Also, someone mentioned in a private message to me that a "Kombucha" colony (bacteria/yeast) might be useful in promoting oxidation, so I'll get some of that stuff, too.

Thanks,

Mike (aka, Mr. Kratom)

[Fractalhead]

I emailed Daniel and he said he didn't make any images of his plates. However, he said it is easy to find Mitragynine on TLC plates because it fluoresces bright yellow under long wave UV (blacklight).

He also said:

"I used silica gel TLC plates and developed them with n-propanol/1.5% NH4OH

at a 9:2 ratio.

Sidney Sudberg published some images of his TLC plates in the Entheogen Review (Vol. 12, No. 2, 2003). You should see if you can get a copy. In

addition to my mobile phase, he also used toluene/ethyl acetate/diethylamine (7:2:1)."

Has anyone got a copy of this issue of the Entheogen Review? Would be great to have a look.

Some of those solvent system components may be a bit hard to get for the non-professional but we can no doubt come up with a decent system using more readily available materials... while we still can.

[Zarathustra]

First, Fractalhead - thanks for the info! I'll track down that article, and am looking for all the components I need to be able to consistently test this stuff.

Secondly...based on the observed effects...I think I may have created some Mitragynine Pseudoindoxl!

Hypothesis: Under the right conditions, damp powdered Kratom, frequently aerated as it is allowed to slowly dry, may oxidize into some quantity of Mitragynine Pseduoindoxyl.

Method: Place damp (not dripping wet) powdered Kratom into a large salad bowl. Let it sit out at room temperature for a few days. Several times a day, aerate the kratom by (for example) scooping it up and letting it fall slowly back into the bowl. When the top layer is dry, shift it around so that the top layer is moist again. After a few days of drying like this, perform a simple water extraction followed by a water + lemon juice extraction. Combine the results of both extractions and then concentrate as desired by boiling. Store, and do with what you want (but be careful - read below!)

Explanation:

Alright. After reading this thread, and another about extraction techniques, I was all excited to see if lemon juice (and a longer boiling time) would help me create a more potent batch of Kratom extract. So I proceeded to boil a half pound (224 grams) of average (IamShaman.com) quality Kratom, along with a whole bottle of lemon juice (umm, too much?), for about 5 hours.

After it was finished, I "squeezed" all the liquid out of the powder using an herb squeezing utensil, and then put all the liquid into a container for later use (Extraction #1). I normally throw the leftover Kratom away at this point, but since I was experimenting, I decided to keep it. I placed the damp Kratom in a large, open, salad bowl, and left it out at room temperature.

Meanwhile, I sampled my water extract (Extraction #1). I'm not sure it was any more potent than my usual (lemon juice-free) extract (which also only involves about 40 minutes total boiling time). But it did taste much worse! It might have been a bit stronger, but unfortunately, I've become a bit tolerant to Kratom, so its hard for me to say for certain.

Time passes. Every now and then I would "aerate" the damp Kratom, in an attempt to keep it from getting moldy. After a couple of days (now Saturday), I decided to re-use this Kratom to make a new extract. This time, I first boiled the Kratom in plain water for a couple of hours. I then drained off the resulting liquid and set it aside (this is Extraction #2a). Next, I boiled the Kratom again, this time with about a half bottle of lemon juice, for another couple of hours.

Once this second boil was complete, I "squeezed" the Kratom to get all the liquid out (this is Extraction #2b), then threw the Kratom away. I mixed the results of both extractions (Extraction #2a and Extraction #2b - not the first Extraction #1 from a couple days earlier), then boiled the total volume for a bit to create a more concentrated mixture.

Once at the desired volume, I poured the mixture into a container and put it in the refrigerator. Lets call this "Extraction 2a + 2b".

Later that evening, I consumed about 60ml of this stuff (2a + 2b). (Based on the scale I use for my normal extraction technique, that would be about 23 grams of leaf. But bear in mind that this stuff has gone through a several boils by this point.)

After about 15 minutes or so, I began to feel a bit nauseaus. I also felt "light headed" and "intoxicated" - but I wouldn't call it euphoric.

I went to bed a bit later. I had a hard time going to sleep - it was affecting me pretty strongly. Moreover, my respiration was depressed, which is a symptom I used to experience when I first started taking Kratom.

So, I wonder if some Mitragynine Pseudoindoxyl was created with my technique? Or perhaps one or more of the other Kratom alkaloids was concentrated and more evident (since most of the Mitragynine was presumably removed during the first boil - Extraction #1)?

In any case, I can't say that the effect was exactly pleasurable. Perhaps I took too much. Or, it could be that whatever the active ingredient in my mixture is, it just doesn't have as favorable of a user experience as plain old Mitragynine.

Anyway, I'm going to do some more experiments with it, and perhaps some of you guys might want to as well. But be careful - if you do produce pseudoindoxyl, it is presumably very potent stuff. Also, again, I presume that most of the mitragynine had been removed from the Kratom after my first boil (Extraction #1). What if I had instead just soaked the Kratom in water, drained it, and then let it dry out (with aeration) over a few days? Then, presumably, there might be more mitragynine left in the Kratom that could then be converted into pseudoindoxyl - i.e., this could be much more potent.

Just some thoughts.

Sorry for the long post!

Mike, aka Mr. Kratom

[theobromos]

After a couple of days you might get some fermentation by moulds. This could be dangerous to your health if you get the wrong mould.

Bubbling air through a tea made with acid but then converted to slightly alkali, for a couple of hours might do. With an aquarium air pump, for example.

[Zarathustra]

theobromos:

After a couple of days you might get some fermentation by moulds.  This could be dangerous to your health if you get the wrong mould.

Bubbling air through a tea made with acid but then converted to slightly alkali, for a couple of hours might do. With an aquarium air pump, for example.

Heh, I guess I ought to get myself a guinea pig Other than being potentially dangerous, is it conceivable that my method could have produced some quantity of pseudoindoxyl? Also, would boiling have killed any potentially dangerous molds - or perhaps some molds release toxins that would not be affected by boiling?

Hmm, I've got an aquarium pump that I could use for your suggestion above, but how do I convert the tea to become slightly alkaline? (I have a pH/EC pen, so I can be precise about it, if needed.) Could I, for example, add baking soda or something to the tea? I also have hydroponic pH up/down solutions, but I don't have any idea if those are safe for human consumption.

By the way, I ordered some of that Kombucha stuff - should be here in a day or two.

Thanks,

Mr. Kratom

[Rev]

Ive been given a smaple Plant DNA extraction kit with a recent Crown order.

We really should use it to get DNA samples of kavamans kratom and the rifat clone for comparison.

So whats the stuff maya is selling?

[theobromos]

If you use half of a gramme of ascorbic acid to make the tea you should only need a little over half of a gramme of baking soda to make it alkaline. Less sodium than a packet of crisps.

[John_Barleycorn]

A saturated solution of bicarb soda will deliver pH 9 at most, which may not be enough to freebase mitragynine. It could take washing soda.

But apart from that, why the need for oxidation under alkaline conditions? It doesn't seem to be required with other alkaloids, eg, pseudoephedrine.

[theobromos]

We are talking of air oxidation here not the use of oxidising chemicals.

[ 05. April 2004, 21:55: Message edited by: theobromos ]

[John_Barleycorn]

I would have thought that the requirement for alkaline conditions might clobber the idea of spontaneous oxidation? Also, if passing O2 through some alcoholic solvent, what ensures that the mitragynine oxidises before the alcohol?

[Auxin]

John_Barleycorn:

if passing O2 through some alcoholic solvent, what ensures that the mitragynine oxidises before the alcohol?

Alcohols arent generally oxidized by O2 alone.