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Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl

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Antrenom, as far as I know, there aren't any other ones in Australia except the Rifat Clone ones..

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Originally posted by Antrenom:

Hey,has anyone had any experience with the kratom extract kavaman is selling here? http://www.ethnobotany-australia.net/forum...opic.php?t=1613

I would presume this is made from the same leaf material.

Would you recommend leaves or an extract.

Always start with the natural form and the work yur way up.

Torsten,I hear you will have a new batch of kratom plants avaliable soon,if so do you know approximatly when you will have them in stock. Also,will it be from the rifat clone?

Rifat clone only. Not sure when, but we are just hardening them off now. We have also decided to sell some advanced plants. These are a 30-50cm high and are very robust. Ony available from the nursery though as they are too large for shipping ($80/each).

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DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER

I got access to a university library computer today and found the startling facts from the paper I mention above, Yamamoto, L.T. Gen. Pharmacol. 1999.

Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is a potent agonist of mu and delta opioid receptors but of negligible kappa effect. Compared to other opioids it is a hundred times more powerful than mitragynine, 20 times more powerful than morphine and 4 times more powerful than the endogenous opioid DAMGO enkephalin. We are talking sub-milligramme doses here.

Obviously this has huge implications for mitragynine users. Looking at the structure I would say that mitragynine probably converts easily by air oxidation (and possibly rearrangement with time), certainly more easily than the ibogoids. This means that if you leave powdered mitragyna around it might become 100 times more powerful. As in potentially deadly at your normal dose.

The safest way to avoid this might be to convert all the mitragynine in your herb before you establish a safe dose :) Or store under a nitrogen atmosphere, very easy to do with a home-made glove box, I expect.

The authors quote Zarembo JE et al J Pharm Sci (1974) 63: 1407-1414 for the biotransformation of mitragynine to the pseudoindoxyl derivative by a Helminthosporum sp. mould.

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if the kratom powder from hhh is in fact kavaman's then afoaf had a good experience with this.

he boiled about 15g of the powder in water with lemon juice for about 4hours, strained and reduced to about 60ml or so.

he had 2 shots of about 20ml each(prob about 9-10g worth), his girlfriend had the rest. and within about 5mins was feeling VERY relaxed, sorta a mix of opiate and sedative feeling. there was quit e a bit of euphoria too, he was watching ali g and couldn't stop laughing :D

he was still feeling it quite strongly when he went to bed about 2hours later and fell asleep easily, whereas he usually has trouble falling asleep, he had a very good nmights rest with a few nice dreams, although they were forgotten easily:( and woke up refreshed.

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Guest electro

hrm, 100 times more powerful...

i wonder if that explains why i managed to get 6 full doses when i boiled those three leaves for ages with a little 3% peroxide.

It is a messy uncontrolled oxidation, but if even any of the aforementiond product was produced, it would explain the huge reduction in dose asnd the absence of stimulation (this was especially tru for the resin balls that were made up with the resin & flour to shape).

mmmm

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Hello from kansas! Nice to say hi to some aussie psychonauts. But seriously, if all that has been discussed above is true, then someone could make massive quanities pyschoactive matter from a decent amount of kratom. If kavaman is doing this, his "extract" is very cheap for him to make, and he can sell it as true kratom extract for much more. Almost a scam, I dont know his prices, but if someone were to make his powder themselves like electro sort of did, then they would be saving a ton of money. This is in assumption kavamans pricing his extract quite high, or even close to a real extracts price.

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Guest electro

i have no idea what i made.... which is always a very dangerous thing when you are planning on eating the product.

I simply took the stance that several of the byproducts of oxidation of mitragynine are active and are possibly more active.

there is nothing scientific or safe about that process ... i had no idea how far it would oxidise ... wether it would become pseudoindoxyl or something else (like whatever the product of oxidising pseudoinoxyl is...[which for all i know could be deadly])..

just be careful and learn chemistry first.

The only thing that led to me testing that idea was that many thai people boil it into a paste which is rolled into balls, and as yet i have not heard of anyone dying from this (i could be wrong though) ... one would assume that many people over the years have not been so nice to their extract .. maybe boiled it too long, burnt it a little (mmm oxidation)..

watch out for yourself.

i am also not experimenting with this anymore as the time is up ... i think it went illegal today didnt it ? ... until i hear otherwise it is now an ornamental

--------------------------------------------------

edit ... thel re your question about it being illegal im sure it was dl in this thread who said that the scheduling date was may 1 ... ( i would have pm'd but your box is ful)

[ 06. March 2004, 06:56: Message edited by: electro ]

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No law on it in the States. i dont know anyone besides myself and one other who even knows of the drug.

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I would like to make an extraction from my Kratom as my source reported it to be quite weak and I'm sitting with almost a litre of yucky tasting leaves. Does anybody know of a simple but safe way of extracting the active substances? This pseudoindoxyl stuff being 100 times more potent sounds pretty risky...

I am primarily interested in the reported low-dose stimulating effects (as in getting as little mitragynine pseudoindoxyl as possible), but most of all I would like to know what I'm getting, so if it would be more reliable to try to convert all of the mitragynine into pseudoindoxyl then I'd go for that.

FWIW, I have no intent of selling any of this stuff. If you want to send me a private message, I will keep it private.

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Knome tested kavaman's product, both extract and powder, and found it to be very potent.

Extract was consumed pure, broken into small pieces and washed down with drink.

No physical discomfort whatsoever was experienced.

Knome burst into activity approx 1 hr after ingestion, which is very good in his case, since he is by nature lazy and sluggish. Much work got done in the first couple of hours...

later on relaxation/euphoria was experienced...

all in all like Torsten said, similar to extracts from Rifat clones...

Later knome got a little bored and tried something else:

he still had some poppy seed extract lying around from a previous experiment, perhaps half a dose.

he took this approx 4 hrs into kratom experience...

result: Almost no sleep all night, after getting bored with TV (watching 2001 Space odysee) and PC (nothing much on there either) he lay down in bed and darkness.

All nite the weirdest and strangest mind-pictures and thought associations were experienced.

Not in a continuous euphoria but in a distanced yet very interested manner.

Knome did not take sleeping pill as he didn't want to waste his "trip".

next morning no hangover was experienced despite very little to no sleep.

Knome was in good mood and functioning/working properly.

Thumbs up for kratom!

to hell with alcohol!

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Guest electro

gom, but alcohol with kratom is goood :)

espeically when it is all grown or made yourself :)

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gomaos:

Knome tested kavaman's product, both extract and powder, and found it to be very potent.

[/b]

For a person i know, Two teaspoons of powder in a tea does exactly as you wrote gom.

One thing i've noticed, at around 3rd to 4th hour when effects are still just a little noticable, if the person has another cup of exactly the same quantity, it knocks his socks off and nausea is generally experienced. This has happened 3 times without fail. The head is extremely spacey with strong vibes flowing.

It's fantastic for motivation when doing boring/hard garden work. As you stated, so much gets done in a little time period. But too much can ruin the entire job and put you in your place.

oh and i should mention, the powder is also consumed with the tea, not strained off, so that might add to the nausea a little.

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i had a look at kavamans kratom,

and my intuion say's "its very old".

why? because it is quite heavy for its volume.

first i thought bark might have been added, but its simple that very well cured kratom leaves basicly crumble into heavier powder than fresh ones, no doubt.

i am sure if we store our rifat clone leaves the same way as those people do it (for years till they fall apart), we will end up with a same strengh product!!

maybe natural occuring oxidation whilst being stored makes a big difference, however older material does reduce its volume dramasticly and thus could be 5 to 10 times as strong as fresh dried leaves!

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gom, but alcohol with kratom is goood

but kratom with opoids is better...

no, seriously, if storing kratom for a year or so is all that's needed for it to become more potent, perhaps then that's the way to go...

like for example in winemaking...

(" I have here a cup of 1998 chiang rai mytragina beaujolais, care to taste it, Sir?")

have there been any reported deaths from kratom consumption, say in Thailand or elsewhere?

reliable reports not propaganda by the faschist thai government?

[ 03. March 2004, 13:11: Message edited by: gomaos ]

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planthelper:

i had a look at kavamans kratom,

and my intuion say's "its very old".

why? because it is quite heavy for its volume.

I love your scientific perspective planthelper....much like mine :)

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As I've mentioned, I find the possibility of a 100 times more potent substance possibly appearing in the stuff if not prepared properly is pretty scary (though it's not an all-bad thing, ofcourse :-) ). Would it be possible to prevent oxidation into pseudoindoxyl by adding something like ascorbic acid to the water when making tea?

Among the recipes for Kratom tea or water extract I find, I rarely see any dosage information. How much dried leaf material to use for one beyond-placebo dose? If you make the resin extract balls, how much is a resin ball?

BTW, how soluble is mitragynine in different solvents? Would adding a bit of ethanol make for better extractions?

[ 04. March 2004, 05:57: Message edited by: Fruit ]

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Now I've put ~10 grams (+/- 1 gram) of powdered Kratom, perhaps 50% powdered at arrival from the supplier and 50% krushed by me, into ~700 ml of hot water (above 60 Celsius but not boiling or shimmering) in a glass container, added ~1 ml of ascorbic acid (as an anti-oxidant), and will let it steep until tomorrow. My intent is to filter of the herb mush and then reduce the water solution to resin.

One thing I noted was that before adding the ascorbic acid the powdered herb floated on the water surface, but as soon as the acid hit the water, the herb powder sank to the bottom of the container (and went back there after stirring).

Now, before I hurt myself or waste a lot of Kratom, can somebody tell me if this seems like a reasonable proceedure? I already have second thoughts about the ascorbic as this seemed to decrease the solubility.

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Personally I'd want the oxidated product as leaving it out wont produce that much, might just make it a a tad stronger. Im currently scouring databases in search of the correct synthesis of Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl. No luck yet, perhaps a rhodium person might have some information.

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Fruit, the best way to avoid the oxidation is to keep the leaves whole until just before use, then make a tea with an antioxidant.

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I made the extract. I'm now sitting with about 3.5 grams of dark brown semi-sticky goo, it's fairly similiar to some varities of soft hashish (I've seen it on TV...).

Now, how much is a starter dose? I've tried smoking it but it burns poorly, so eating is next. Any dosage recommendations?

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Edicius, it is possible that the subjective effects of the pseudoindoxyl will be quite different, perhaps without the stimulation.

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True, but normal oxidation wont convert much of the product. Most of it will remain the original composition.

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Depends what you call normal, Edicius. A lot of the indole alkaloid pseudoindoxyls can be prepared by oxidation by air. Not normal but very simple.

Have you looked at the J Pharm Sci article I mention above?

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Interesting thread. I had read about Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl a couple of months ago (before I found this forum) in that same paper mentioned at the beginning of the thread, and had wondered the same things.

But, what's the conclusion here? There's a lot of chemist-talk, but unfortunately, I'm not a chemist! But I _can_ follow directions, so can anyone recommend a recipe for producing this stuff? Anyone actually tried it?

My interest with it is not because I want a stronger drug, but rather, I want a more cost-effective drug. At least until my recently acquired plant gets big enough to support my consumption habits. Right now, the cheapest I can get dried leaf is $145 per pound - but its not very potent stuff, and so it doesn't last long enough.

So, anyway, how about a step-by-step recipe for us willing guinea pigs? And if it might be dangerous, well, I suppose I could buy a rat and try it on that first!

Thanks,

Mr. Kratom

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