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This is really exiting stuff guys, you may just be warm on the trail of the mystery of the Aboriginal Dreamtime...

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has anyone of you access to the csiro plant list, which tells you if any australian native plant contains alakloids?

that list is not perfect but it would help...

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I don't know that there is a centralised list, not that is publicly available anyway.

The fact that Nuytsia is the name of the WA botany journal does not make sorting through google any easier.

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Interesting stuff. Presence of THH will be the big find.

To think that these two plants were coexisting there for so many years...

The sharing of information and knowledge and experience is what keeps an internet community alive... people hold their cards close to their chest and this doesn't help!

The nature of this medium has the result that by sharing with the "community" online, you share with the world, community or otherwise.

I am happy to remain ignorant of some things for the sake of their internet invisibility. I would like to think that in face to face discussion with more knowledgable members guarded information might become available to me. This has generally been the case.

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Latin names! Can't u just say wattle or acacia. This forum is a public forum and the info u speak is not suitable for all. Remember that teenagers/kids/fuckhead/the police can read this!! Smarten up guys.

We can all learn to read between the lines and sumtimes it's a little more exciting to do so.

Edited by naja naja

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mistletoe Amyema fitzgeraldii

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Interesting stuff. Presence of THH will be the big find.

Yes but not necessarily in a good way. Once a plant is confirmed to contain certain things, then dried or otherwise prepared material of said plant becomes illegal to posses. As we have seen from other plants, this is not a guarantee against unsustainable harvesting.

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Well maybe I struggle to be pro-caution without coming across as pro-censorship, which annoys me because I'm strongly against censorship. I'm honestly not sure what the ideal solution is.

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I am pro censorship if it prevents incarceration or prevents the tightening of regulations.

Word of mouth shared between those who know is a far safer policy. The more time you spend in the community the more people you meet the more information you obtain and share..

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The more time you spend in the community the more people you meet the more information you obtain and share..

What about people that their primary means of gaining ethnobotany knowledge is through the net? People physically isolated from face to face community or people with socialising difficulties?

How do they gain this knowledge that is not talked about online? They may be just as respecting of this knowledge but due to this censorship will never know.

Would you still hold this view if you did not have access to word of mouth knowledge?

Edited by GingaNinja

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Latin name rastazungu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't u just say wattle or acacia. This forum is a public forum and the info u speak is not suitable for all. Remember that teenagers/kids/fuckhead/the police can read this!! Smarten up guys.

We can all learn to read between the lines and sumtimes it's a little more exciting to do so.

Advice taken and totally agree. Sorry! Brew looks and smells good. trial tonight I think. Other trials to come.

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What about people that their primary means of gaining ethnobotany knowledge is through the net? People physically isolated from face to face community or people with socialising difficulties?

How do these isolated socially dysfunctional people get any information? Are you saying that the net should be the ultimate repository of all information, and that people should stop speaking and meeting and convening to share information face to face and through word of mouth, or that everything shared this way must be reported in a worldwide public forum?

Would you demand all traditional Aboriginal knowledge be aired on the internet for the sake of the few worthy but isolated people of indigenous descent with social phobias?

How do they gain this knowledge that is not talked about online? They may be just as respecting of this knowledge but due to this censorship will never know.

Some things might only ever be gained through meeting the right people. This is a fact of life. This is not specific to the entheogen "community". Whatever you are trying to do in life, whatever you try and learn, you will miss opportunities by not meeting and speaking to people the old fashioned way.

This is why culture thrives in cities, where people holding specific niche interests have the critical mass of like-minded individuals to come together in community. The net brings niche people together to an extent, but it is a poor surrogate that only goes to demonstrate just how isolated Johnny Mushroom on Christmas Island really is.

Would you still hold this view if you did not have access to word of mouth knowledge?

Yes, because for the most part I do not have this access. I am a relative fringe dweller in this community compared to others I know. This is a choice. I have always felt the opportunity to be further insinuated in the network but I make my choices and I miss certain opportunities because of that. Fact of life.

A forum member I recently met for the first time told me that a lot of plant-heads off the forum are just as, if not more knowledgable, than the more experienced members on the public fora. My limited experience agrees with this.

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Alot of isolated places do not get such a broad range of info as places with outside-inside info flow. We wouldnt know about alot of these plants if it wasnt for technology allowing people to travel/communicate across the world, and if someone wasnt willing to share their knowledge.

An isolated socially dysfunctional person would probably not learn much new then what they have access to, but why do people think they have a right to prevent an isolated socially dysfunctional person from learning something new?

I dont think the internet should be a repository of all information but I think that this idea of sacred knowledge is very hypocritical when people question the things they know.

In the past I bet people were not keen on random westerners drinking aya and not doing so in the 'traditional' setting with a shaman. So what give us the right to now use aya in a way that pleases us? I dont have 'permission' from a south american shaman to access this knowledge that in the past may have only been transfered in a master-student face to face setting. But now this knowledge is for all to see on the net and people dont question why or how they have access to this info.

My biggest concern is who is controlling this outlet of knowledge? The ruling elite group of ethnoheads? What qualities does a person need to be suitable for the transfer of this knowledge? Who is setting these 'rules'? and why do others feel they are in the position to decide for someone else what knowledge they have access to, when a vast amount of their 'common' knowledge was once sacred and secret to certain groups?

The idea that old fashion face to face talking is somehow superior to internet communication is a bit dated when you consider what century we are in.

I dont doubt that non-internet people are equally knowledgable as internet people, but not everyone has the choices that you or other may have. As you say you make the choice to limit your inclusion in the real world community but not everyone has that choice.

I understand that where to draw the line is a tuff one to decide but I also think people get too elitest with keeping things secret and putting themselves above others that are just not ready for this info.

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Let us use as an example the specific piece of information that started this conversation: the name of a certain plant.

The name of this plant is now basically public knowledge. It was announced at a public real world forum with no disclaimer or condition attached. So no one can really stop anyone else from using it in public or making other people more aware of it. I have asked some members to edit their posts and remove it, but had any one responded with a strong argument and refused I would back off. I realise I don't have the right to control this information. However, in every case, the members have agreed and edited their posts.

The reason I would prefer this information to be held semi-secret is for safety. Basically, the information was always out there. All it would take is a small amount of research into the taxonomy of the genus in question, a drive to the bush, and an analytical extraction, and you would have a good answer. However, I found that very few people that asked me were willing to undertake this level of effort to find out. They just wanted an answer. In most cases these were people that did not know basic botany, had no extraction skills, and were just looking for a high. i don't have anything against that, but what good would the information do them? it would just allow them to tell others and increase the likelihood that they or someone they told would do something that would endanger others.

Every person that knows is a potential risk of bad publicity and legal consequences for the rest of the people who are being careful. All it takes is one lazy person to be seen behaving suspisciously in the bush to bring down the weight of the media and the police and to make this generally well known by the public. IMO it is more likely to be the newbies who would make a mistake like that. So I see the restriction of this information (particularly keeping it off google) to be valid and important. Sorry to those who would like all knowledge to be free and dislike the creation of an 'in' group and everyone else - I understand and agree, but pragmatism outweighs ideology on this issue IMO.

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What about people that their primary means of gaining ethnobotany knowledge is through the net? People physically isolated from face to face community or people with socialising difficulties?

How do they gain this knowledge that is not talked about online? They may be just as respecting of this knowledge but due to this censorship will never know.

Would you still hold this view if you did not have access to word of mouth knowledge?

I find it hard to believe that u r more isolated in Australia from other ethno crew than myself. I live in literally bumfuckville a bit closer to the coast than black stump, but not alot.

I think we have a name for this, it is called EGA. I wouldn't miss it for the world. :)

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Safety for u, me and every1!

First DMT bust in WA hit front pages! (NEW deadly killer street drug) xtracted from native plants. Fucking great! Was all over the news for 4-5 days! Was serious big news. U want to be the one who tips off the cops by letting them in on knowledge that they don't need to know and presumably, we don't want them to know. So if u r pulled over with 10kg of fresh bark in ur car the cop may be puzzled, but not alerted. Imagine how good it would be if we could pick shrooms in such freedom. Or if they see u in wattle territory with dreadlocks, they pull u over and search u like they do in bailingup during mushroom season! Don't think it can happen, it already does.

In this little town I live in, the local paper recently had the cops asking every1 to report cars in the bush cause the busted sum1 the week before planting herb. Please record their lis no and report it too us, then search warrant proceeds to search ur place just because u were fucking parked in the bush.

For the record, I am not dreadlocks and never will, (sorry Marsha :P) I like being able to brush my hair. Personally, I will give the knowledge to people I have already seen demonstrate that they can use descretion on who to further pass the knowledge onto, will not abuse the knowledge, has a use or genuine interest in the information. (ie, not just tell every1 who will listen)

If this is elitist, so be it. Atleast I won't be to blame for the next scheduled plant or substance.

I think a very common phrase can sum it all up nicely in " Loose lips, sink ships!"

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shouldn't people be able to journey on their own impetus rather than within the meme conditioning of the tribe,

is it safer for the plant because it's rare? is it surrounded by harsh desert or vicious crocs that might kill harvesters?

It is common as muck and easy to find. That is, if you can be bothered getting in the car and driving a little bit further than you might otherwise.

It is also very closely related to the most well known DMT-containing plants from the east coast.

For those reasons, if you can't figure out what it is and how to find it, you are not ready for it. The plant is it's own gatekeeper.

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inpsyght,i find your attitude quite annoying and ignorant,you just dont have a clue where this is at.

why not do some WORK and find something yourself that is largely unknown/lost knowledge and work through it........maybe then you'll understand where knowledge [re]discoverers are coming from.......and the responsibility some feel........ego would want the discoverer tag,hey i found this ,but we keep it quiet........you sound like youre on the outer and resent it,but maybe you belong there.

i tell most people who ask most of what they want to know.i read their posts,sus out their attitude and if they seem ok i pass the info on person to person.......your attitude would make me reluctant to share with you.......

t s t .

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Im sure its not elitist reasons , as said it is to protect the plant from overuse abuse over harvest etc

its also not something new as this has been the way with many tribal groups pituri being a good example in australia

A common method of controlling drug supply in tribal groups is to restrict access to the means of production including the material instruments of production and the technical knowledge. Aboriginal people utilized this strategy by allowing production only by old men with ritual standing who possessed a monopoly on knowledge.
Edited by mac

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what is really to be gained using this knowledge restriction other than an elite servicing their own needs?

In regards to tribal use it was always the medicine man who held the sacared knowledge yes other members partake of ethnogenic rituals but never before they were ready.

in a traditional set and circumstance this may have been judged by age or other things like position in the tribe or whatt one has done for the tribe andd it was not necessary for him to disclose his ingredients to the other members in order for them to undertake the ethnogenic ritual in many cases

go on any of the other ethno forums things are no different there I'm only new to this whole scene but one thing i've learned is its shitloads more fun to do your own resaerch as oppose to letting others put in the hard yards there's many things that have been hidden from our view as times have passed and there is always opportunity to rediscover them

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