The New Anti-Semitism

[Rizla]

you don't really "listen" to what I have wrote, and so you have made a lot of mistakes about what I believe.

Everyone says we Americans don't understand the concept of irony.

Why not go back over this thread and instead of assuming I am lying all the time, try and read it with a bit more of an open mind?

Replace "I am lying" with "they are anti-semitic", and you could try this idea too?

[chilli]

Everyone says we Americans don't understand the concept of irony.

No they don't, and besides that was addressed to Baphomet, who is not American. Also, it had nothing to do with not understanding irony in this instance.

Replace "I am lying" with "they are anti-semitic", and you could try this idea too?

I don't assume anyone is anti-semitic, but when people conflate the Jewish people with the actions of political Israel, they almost always are. It would be like bagging the Americans on this forum because of the actions of the US government.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Sublime Crime

[themagicmushroom]

So:

Does anyone else think ignoring Baphomet's trollish racism so far on these forums may have been a mistake? Initially I thought it was not worth reporting, because he just makes himself look like an idiot everytime he opens his mouth, but I'm beginning to wonder if allowing it to go on has actually started to really drag down the tone of the forums...

but you:

...don't give a fuck who I offend, frankly...

So if ya gonna be a knob, Hows about you don't winge about the "tone of the forums" eh?

also:

Fine, let's just call it hating Jews then, or Judophobia

Which?

Anti Semitism = "hating jews"

Judophobia = "an irrational fear of judo-practitioners"

JudAEOphobia = "an irrational fear of Jewish people"

150+ nukes and never signed a nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Israel is on par with iran, north korea, except that iran has spoken of a no-first-use policy and israel has specifically avoided doing so. I'm irrationally scared of israel too i guess, dunno if its the attempted genocide or the double speak or the fact that amerikkka has protected they arse from the fire for so long, and ain't in a position to do so much longer (I'm really not a fan of watching people with nukes and a god complex getting into fights) or even the dangerous "gods one and only people" tripe... I guess I'm just anti-semetic eh?

Could be worse, I could be you eh?

[chilli]

It's so surreal how you guys just keep passing over the only objection I have raised, which is the conflation of Israel with Jews generally. So to answer your question, if you are projecting your views of Israel, which sound similar to mine, on to Jewish people generally, like Baphomet and others have done, then yes, you are anti-semitic.

Not only has nearly everyone that has commented on this thread ignored that simple point and instead made a slew of irrelevant straw man arguments as if I am defending Israel when I have clearly and repeatedly stated I am not, and that I positively believe they are conducting war crimes, they actually continue to do it after I explain in detail!

This only shows the levels of willful ignorance and prejudice that exists in many so-called enlightened minds... and the way that the "good guys" on the "left" usually operate in the same polarizing frame of mind as the "bad guys" on the "right". This is what I mean about getting deep insight into the psyches of my fellow human beings from the simple act of posting a news article without comment.

As far as dragging down the tone of the forums, I've certainly been guilty of that at times, but my comment about not caring who I offend was in the context of not caring who I offend by expressing an alternative point of view, using terms such as "anti-semitism" and "racism" according to their widely accepted meanings, not just by insulting people because I disagree with them.

Although, sometimes insults may be called for, I'm not sure anymore.

[baphomet]

if you are projecting your views of Israel, which sound similar to mine, on to Jewish people generally, like Baphomet and others have done, then yes, you are anti-semitic.

Fuck I hate liars! You posted the same lies in another thread and when I asked you to back up what you were saying you couldn't, so you've started another thread to push your bullshit, how bout you post examples of where I have said these things that you are accusing me of as well as where I have stated that all jews are zionists as you have accused me of before OR JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP!!

And don't just make it another half assed smear campaign trying to make me look racist by quoting me out of context on other issues like you did last time, just provide evidence for the claim that you just made.

[chilli]

post examples of where I have said these things that you are accusing me of as well as where I have stated that all jews are zionists as you have accused me of

I've already done this extensively, this is stupid.

You explicitly advocate as fact that anti-semitism and islamophobia are perfectly rational and logical:

"Does everyone agree with the FACT that islamophobia is a perfectly rational fear and a logical reaction to a hateful, prejudice, backwards, dangerous belief system? And likewise anti semitism is a perfectly rational reaction to a prejudiced, racist, genocidal, religion?"

You conflate Jews with Zionists by saying that all Jews are Zionists by definition:

"Some people (including one of my best friends) consider themselves to be 'jewish' by birth even though they claim they are not religious and know nothing about the religion. The whole concept of them being part of this master race due to birth right stems from religious judaism which makes them kind of stupid but my problem is not with them it is with the religion itself! I do not consider these people [ie. non-zionist jews] jews! Someone will no doubt say to me "who are you to define who is a jew and who is not?" and I do not want to get into semantics, let me just make this clear, I see this religion as a disease and my problem is with the infection not the unknowing host!"

As you like to say, why don't you sprout some balls and own up to what you have said?

[baphomet]

THAT WAS AN EPIC FAIL

I am not projecting my views of jews in general onto israel, I have posted video's by Rabbi Weis and stated many times that modern political zionism is not supported by all jews so stop the lies, you have not backed up what you said you just wanted an excuse to post some shit out of context again and make me look like a racist just as expected, how pathetic.

What I have said before and will say again is that not all jews support modern political zionism (all though most do) but all jews (if they are religious) believe that god will return the land of israel to the jews and allow them to rule the world from a world government based in israel, so therefore zionism (if it means a return of jews to the land of israel) is a key part of the jewish religion. The only difference between religious jews who do not support modern political zionism and those who do is the time line, they still wish to take back israel and rule the world.. just not right now, they believe they are still in exile by god and are waiting for the moschiach to return before they take over, how sweet.

As expected you posted some shit totally out of context to make me look bad but your still unable to go back to the threads that you quoted from and debate the issues in their true context, a cowardly act but not unexpected.

If we are to discuss this then it should be in it's true context, the fact of the matter is that if "antisemetism" (if it means criticism of judaism and it's followers) is wrong and I am "antisemitic" then then you are a racist homophobe who supports the rape and murder of small children, genocide and a whole host of other shit.

Personally I think you will still be too scared to answer these questions but it's worth a try..

- Do you think racism is wrong and should ALWAYS be condemned?

- Do you think religious intolerance is wrong and should ALWAYS be condemned?

- Do you think homophobia is wrong and should ALWAYS be condemned?

- Do you think it is wrong to rape children and keep them as sex slaves and if so should it ALWAYS be condemned?

- Do you think it is wrong to murder innocent people including women and children and should it ALWAYS be condemned?

- Is it wrong to sacrifice children & animals for religious purposes (assuming the animal will not be eaten afterwards) if so should it ALWAYS be condemned?

- Do you think it is more important to try to minimise innocent suffering in the world (animals as well as people) even if it conflicts with people's religious beliefs or is it more important to be politically correct and bow to people's religious sensitivities?

Edited February 16, 2009 by baphomet

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't read all of the fights with baph but i said something like this in the 'raped woman jailed' thread:

baphs basic objection seems to be with the actual scriptures. we can all relate to that. religious people believe that their scriptures are infallible, that means they support what is in the scripture, that means that it's pretty fair for baph to lump all jews in together, and all muslims in together. yes they dont all behave the same, but they do all believe the same scripture, so in this way they may be lumped together.

it's easy to see where SC is coming from too, and i agree, but as abrasive as his personality seems to be to everyone there is a valid point if you don't go all lefty P.C. hippe ultra-tolerant on yourself. i don't think all jews are zionists but all zionists are jews, and all jews can be lumped together under the "supports jewish scripture" banner. both of these religions can probably offer a spectacular spiritual awakening if used correctly, but they both contain some bullshit too.

can't we all just stop defending people who follow dogmatic religion, since deep down we all think they are douchebags? it doesn't mean you have to stop tangling with baphomet, it means let him have this point.

yes to all of the above block of questions.

[chilli]

baphs basic objection seems to be with the actual scriptures. we can all relate to that. religious people believe that their scriptures are infallible, that means they support what is in the scripture, that means that it's pretty fair for baph to lump all jews in together, and all muslims in together. yes they dont all behave the same, but they do all believe the same scripture, so in this way they may be lumped together.

The problem is that many Jews are not religious at all, and many (most?) do not believe their Scriptures are infallible, nor that they should be taken literally.

A similar thing could be said of Islam and Christianity, there are many adherents of these religions who have very moderate or liberal views about their Scriptures and many other things, so it is certainly not fair, or very useful, to lump them in together.

Also crucially, as I have pointed out already, being a Jew is a matter of not just religion, but also race, and so the categories that are already far from being as simple as you make out are even more problematic when applied to an ethnoreligious group.

[chilli]

Baphomet, I never claimed you were projecting your views of Jews in general onto Israel, actually the exact opposite.

You explicitly and unambiguously said anti-semitism and islamophobia are rational and logical, and you also said anyone who is not a Zionist is not a real Jew.

If you think these statements have been taken out of context, please explain how.

You can't though, because you've made it very clear in all your posts that is exactly what you meant.

So, instead of explaining why your statements should not be taken at face value, you assert:

"the fact of the matter is that if "antisemetism" is wrong (if it means criticism of judaism and it's followers), and I am "antisemitic" then then you are a racist homophobe who supports the rape and murder of small children, genocide and a whole host of other shit"

Of course anti-semitism is not "criticism of judaism and it's followers," that is ridiculous. You keep proclaiming yourself as some kind of expert, but you think this is the definition of anti-semitism? What a joke.

Besides, I have clearly stated what I mean by the term, that it is your conflation of Jews generally with Zionism and the view that Jews are parasites who are secretly running the world etc, that qualifies you as an anti-semite.

All you have done in this last post is make your racism even more apparent, and underlined the bizarre absurdity of your beliefs, as well as shown your lack of ability to understand simple concepts and use reason.

Basically, it just sounds like you are having a tantrum and erecting even more straw men to beat up... have fun playing with your dolls.

By the way, just calling things "facts" and putting them in large, bold type does not add to their truthfulness, usually the opposite in my experience.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Sublime Crime

[chilli]

Here is a preview of an interesting documentary on this subject, the full movie is probably available online somewhere.

 

[JDanger]

Popcorn is in the microwave...

[chilli]

Popcorn is in the microwave...

Haha, I hope you mean to eat while you watch the doco, so I will just choose to believe that.

[JDanger]

What else could I mean? *cou-flamewar-gh*

I'll have to wait til I'm away from work to watch the doco, but the title of the thread is enough for me to jump to conclusions as to the direction of conversation.

[edit] Baph must be asleep...

Edited February 17, 2009 by JDanger

[ThunderIdeal]

why shouldn't we be upset with a doctrine that inspires hatred and seems to quite literally demand it? whether or not some religious people are "moderate", isn't that just a sliding scale of douchebaggery, where one is a hypocrite who supports the doctrine of hatred by filing under it's banner without progressing to full scale shit head, and the other is just a total shit head for actually doing unthinkable things because of what some stupid douchebag wrote in a book x hundred years ago?

those identifying as followers of islam, judaism, christianity... by some kind of extrapolation they stand for everything in those scriptures whether or not they really stand for them. if i say i'm a white supremacist even though i'm not, i am still a douchebag who is giving some support to a douchebag cause.

i'm very eager for more responses which might moderate my view, because so far nobody i have spoken to agrees with me fully, but i'm still convinced of my new opinion. i fully appreciate grey areas but suddenly feel extreme about this. perhaps it is newfound certainty of clearly stated murderous instructions in these religions. people identifying as muslims are identifying themselves as followers of a doctrine that preaches murder and are identifying themselves as followers of the same doctrine that inspires terrorists. interpretation of these scriptures as consisting of lots of metaphor used to appeal to me, but where is the metaphor in 'kill the infidel'? is that some inner-jihad against the inner non believer? if so, why not have some kind of foot note hinting at it so that some literal types don't.... take it literally? lumping together seems justified and useful, because followers can't then avoid the knowledge of the totality of what they are following.

[ThunderIdeal]

hypothetical: i identify myself with ideology 2579. it's a pretty cool ideology but at the end it says to stab little children in the eyes with scissors.

doesn't that justify a bit of phobia, whether or not i really stab children with scissors? i might be a moderate type who believes the children-stabbing is a metaphor for something else, or i just choose to ignore that part. sure. you are still a bit loose if you let your kid around me in the stationery aisle, and if something happens then you deserve part of the blame for trying to see the scissor stabber (me) for something i wasn't. if i truly don't think children should be stabbed, then what am i doing calling myself a 2579ian?

Edited February 17, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[chilli]

i'm very eager for more responses which might moderate my view, because so far nobody i have spoken to agrees with me fully, but i'm still convinced of my new opinion. i fully appreciate grey areas but suddenly feel extreme about this. perhaps it is newfound certainty of clearly stated murderous instructions in these religions.

Perhaps through constant exposure you just got infected by a bad meme.

[baphomet]

This is getting rather pathetic now.. and very boring, it's like watching a drowning man and to be honest, I actually feel sorry for you.

Fact is that we have been discussing "jewish conspiracies" and other related matters in THIS thread for quite a while now, and you are getting fkn owned. So you stumbled across the protocols and decided to post some jewish propaganda in a sly attempt to discredit the FACTS that you can not refute in another thread and draw attention away from the real issues, great, only problem is that I have never.. not once mentioned the protocols so providing evidence that there was once a hoax that had something to do with a jewish conspiracy does not invalidate the FACTS that you are unable to deal with elsewhere.

If people want proof of zionist influence/control in the united states it's already in the thread that SC is trying to run away from and here is a small sample again for those interested:

WHO IS THE US CONGRESS REALLY LISTENING TO? (note: each underlined sentence is a link to a reference)

BANNED FOX NEWS REPORT

THE ROTHSCHILDS - GENERATIONS OF NURTURING ZIONISM (article from jewish news paper)

If you don't understand the significance of the previous link watch THIS

EDIT: BTW, I have a copy of this film, it's blatant propaganda which I will happily demonstrate as I did with your last link if there's anyone out there who cant see that from the trailer.

Edited February 17, 2009 by baphomet

[Rizla]

It's so surreal how you guys just keep passing over the only objection I have raised, which is the conflation of Israel with Jews generally.

Nah, you posted some typical propaganda that works well enough in the USA but is generally derided everywhere else except Tel Aviv. What's surreal is how you've forgotten the propaganda you posted that started this thread.

However, you do bring up a point. What, then are we supposed to make of the overwhelming support of people in Israel identifying themselves as "jewish" for the recent Gaza "operation", as the Jerusalem Post so charmingly puts it:

JP: Over 94% of Israelis support the Gaza Operation

Now, the question would be, do most people identifying themselves as jewish in the USA feel the same way? I would imagine a majority of them do. These are I assume the more religiously ideological jewish people, correct?

So, are their beliefs a problem? Can I think so, without condemning anyone born from jewish parents?

I used the example of being born scotch-irish, and not being a fan of the orange men and so forth. Am I self-hating?

No one but yourself is conflating these critiques to any "race". This is ideology/religion we're talking about, no?

[Neoshaman]

I'm sure many of you will relate to the work of the artist david dees hopefully this link works

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#...1144&ref=nf

[Garbage]

It's only a 'forgery' when elders appear in the title.

I can't recollect if i have actually seen them but it is too easy to imagine some crazy assed US evangelical raving about the goodness of Jews like he was trying to supplant Moses.

[chilli]

What's surreal is how you've forgotten the propaganda you posted that started this thread.

What? Of course I haven't forgotten, as I already explained in depth: "when I post an article, or ask a question etc... you are making a *huge mistake* if you think these articles or questions reflect what I believe. Often, I post things just because... I want to see what other people think, and often I post things because I want to see what kind of reactions they get."

No one but yourself is conflating these critiques to any "race". This is ideology/religion we're talking about, no?

No! People on this and other threads have explicitly and repeatedly have referred to "the Jews" eg. "I'm sick of whining Jews", and conflated the Jews with Israel eg. "I do not consider [non-Zionist Jews] to be Jews" Besides, HOW THE FUCK could I be conflating them when that is the very thing I am complaining about?

This is like your last comment where you completely disregarded what I have said for your own unfounded ideas about what I think, where you said: "Why the Jewish Zionists and the Israelis can't be held accountable for faults like anyone else is the elephant in the room you're dodging around" But in the very post you were saying this in response to, I referred to "Israel's blatantly criminal actions, and ... legitimate angry complaint and protest over that issue"

What is it that keeps leading you and Baphomet to accuse me of things I have not said, and have outright denied?

*edit* This is just becoming too much of a waste of time and energy for me, as I think I've learned all I can from this. Apparently its not really helping anyone else, and is probably making them even worse, so I guess I should just stop.

I would just like to say that I have seen the error of my ways, and Baphomet has proven me wrong and shown me how weak and afraid of the FACTS I am. I guess I am just another pathetic sheep, following the dictates of my masters and not really thinking about things for myself. I can see now that I have been used as an unwitting host for Jewish parasites, who have brainwashed me with their propaganda, and I am deeply troubled by this. The only thing I can think to do is run away from this conversation, and avoid Baphomet's obviously superior reasoning powers, so I humbly admit defeat... I was wrong.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Sublime Crime

[chilli]

This is getting rather pathetic now.. and very boring, it's like watching a drowning man and to be honest, I actually feel sorry for you.

Fact is that we have been discussing "jewish conspiracies" and other related matters in THIS thread for quite a while now, and you are getting fkn owned. So you stumbled across the protocols and decided to post some jewish propaganda in a sly attempt to discredit the FACTS that you can not refute in another thread and draw attention away from the real issues, great, only problem is that I have never.. not once mentioned the protocols so providing evidence that there was once a hoax that had something to do with a jewish conspiracy does not invalidate the FACTS that you are unable to deal with elsewhere.

Geez, you are out of it, man... I'm not running away from you, I just find it increasingly futile to talk to you. I've seen about all I need to see of your character and thinking already... so I'm not sure why I bother to keep talking, I guess partly stubbornness, partly a naive belief that reason will prevail, and partly the vague hope that a light will go on in your mind, but usually when that happens people get even more angry.

Why do you think everything I post is somehow part of a conspiracy against you? What "facts" do you think I'm trying to refute? What "real issues" am I trying to draw attention away from? I've already said I agree with lots of the factual information you have presented, because you haven't said anything I haven't read myself years before. What I disagree with is your advocation of anti-semitism and islamophobia as rational and logical that I object to, as well as your racism towards blacks, and your general bigotry, but these are not facts, no matter how much you call them that.

Remember what I said: putting it in caps and calling it a FACT doesn't add to the truthfulness of your claims, the same way that claiming victory does not constitute victory.

[Torsten]

The topic is getting well worn and people are getting tired of it - including sublime crime according to a post in another thread. Go figure.

All threads of this general topic will from now on be merged [like this one has from post 36]. And I might rename that thread 'The sublime crime vs baphomet roundabout'.

Sublime, if you worry so much about the tone of this forum and the strong racial and religious views some people express then why not keep it all in one thread? There are two going right now - one that deals with the war [plus other almost off topic issues] and the other deals with the issues surrounding zionism in other parts of the world. That should keep you busy enough.

[chilli]

The topic is getting well worn and people are getting tired of it - including sublime crime according to a post in another thread. Go figure.

All threads of this general topic will from now on be merged [like this one has from post 36]. And I might rename that thread 'The sublime crime vs baphomet roundabout'.

Sublime, if you worry so much about the tone of this forum and the strong racial and religious views some people express then why not keep it all in one thread? There are two going right now - one that deals with the war [plus other almost off topic issues] and the other deals with the issues surrounding zionism in other parts of the world. That should keep you busy enough.

Well its really easy to figure out, just look at the posting times. I wrote that in that other thread immediately after the post in this thread, and decided it would be my last post on the subject... but I can't resist you, Torsten!

I posted the anti-semitism article from forbes with the idea that the topic could branch off into that thread, and the other one could get back to the original topic of Israel attacking Gaza. I suppose I should have posted the movie in the forbes thread, I guess I thought most people would miss it there because that conversation is so annoying that it seems only me and confused racists are still going there.

Good point about generating more attention by starting new threads, though. I hadn't really considered that I may have been perpetuating it by continuing to respond to it, I just don't like reading irrational and racist remarks that incite hatred and usually feel I should say something to try and persuade people to be reasonable. Probably a waste of time! Reason only works on the reasonable.

Speaking of which, it is not the expression of strong racial and religious views I am worried about, but racism, or any kind of hate speech. I think any reasonable person reading my posts will find I think everyone should be free to express their views on any topic whatsoever, however extreme. Where I draw the line though, and I hope you do, is with talk that incites hatred and violence, such as racism, homophobia, misogyny etc.

This kind of speech only inspires hatred, and has a real effect on people's lives: words create thoughts and thoughts create actions.

The forum posting rules mention that this kind of talk is not tolerated, isn't this why Warrio-Sage and others have been banned? I find it interesting that you are criticizing and moderating my posts speaking out against racism but seem quite tolerant towards the racism itself... go figure!