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Genesis

Psilocybin breaking down with heat and time

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Hey ladies, how are we this fine evening? I have been doing some reading about psilocybin. I started reading an article about smoking P. Cube in a joint like fashion which led to a lot of flak from others saying the heat would break down the psilocybin contained there within. I read a few articles on SAB many a moon ago which contradicted this.

I went on to read an article on Erowid that made the valid point of saying many people boil (100 degrees C) their shrooms to make a tea with no loss of potency.

Erowid Tea Article

And again on Erowid I found:

"Psilocybin and psilocin are sensitive to oxidation, with psilocin being particularly sensitive. This process is accelerated at higher temperatures. There is no specific temperature at which this breakdown occurs, however, the longer you expose the psiloc(yb)in to a raised temperature (in the presence of oxygen or an oxidizer), the more will be degraded."

Erowid again

If this is the case, which it logically seems to be, then why do people go to so much effort using desiccants and crazy methods to preserve shrooms? Would it not be easier to throw them in the over on 60 and let them dry for a few hours? Or go out and buy an electric dehydrator and set it to a cool 50 degrees for 10 hours? A mushroom is only going to be effected by oxidization at the point where it has been cut (Or so I would assume), so the base of the stem is going to lose some potency.

Am I on the right path?

This is just to clear things up a bit. I have done a fair bit of looking and there is not a great deal of information available. Hope this helps answers the question I know a few others are asking. There really should be more research done on Psilcybin. Volunteers? Hahha

Cheers lads,

Gen

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I remember a certain camping trip and a certain member who preserved :shroomer: in ascorbic acid believeing there was a single dose there. Four casualties later proved otherwise :wub:

Woah to antioxidants.

Sorry if it didnt answer your question, but it made me laugh in rememberance.

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oh yeah i remember that :o

edit- from what i remember that was only 1 shroom?

Sorry if it didnt answer your question, but it made me laugh in rememberance.

it would to u cruel bastid. :P

thank god for AMULTE is all i can say. my saviour :wub:

i eternally owe that man 1.

Edited by incognito

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I remember a certain camping trip and a certain member who preserved :shroomer: in ascorbic acid believeing there was a single dose there. Four casualties later proved otherwise :wub:

What sort of casualties? Can you elaborate please? Was the preservation extreme?

My two cents: a gentle heat overnight is def the way to go. Dessicants alone take much longer and get messy/sticky, for relatively the same result...

EDIT: though I always wondered if blowing air onto them for extended periods would increase the oxidation anyway? Experience says only by a negligible amount...

Edited by ayjay101

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I guess heat breaking down actives is just another myth. It just amazed me the length people went to preserve mushrooms, some of the articles I read were pretty out there.

*Adds to my wealth of knowledge* lol

I really wanna know this story now Tripitaka! So it was yourself, Monkey, Pigsy, and Sandy... haha

Gen

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my understanding is that the active in shrooms does not break down,at least in the few years we are prob talking about......what happens is most likely 2 molecules of it bind together with oxygen bonding involved,to form an inactive compound.......if an antioxident is used it breaks the bonding or prevents it happening.......this results in shrooms at least as potent as fresh.

excess antioxidant,formation of ascorbate salts.......its posssible its stronger than fresh.....

one dose dried shrooms plus vit c equals about 3 doses plain dried shrooms

i heard of less than a gm of subs with vit c that had bioflavanoids as well.........also of dried doses of one to 3 subs.

t s t .

Edited by t st tantra

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hehe yeah i remember that. hectic night that one.

in response to the thread, as im sure ive mentioned in similar discussions, try looking at this this way...

THC's boiling point is @ 200°C

Psilo's melting point is @ 220-228° C (Crystals from boiling water)

THC can be smoked, still effective but still degreded by heat. i dont see why psilo cant be smoked.

in the long long ago i smoked something, was told it was psilo xtal but cant confirm.

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definately some effect from smoked shrooms but mild.....t smoked lsd and found the effects mild and short lasting from memory.

calcium psilocybinate,lol,maybe.........

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A mushroom is only going to be effected by oxidization at the point where it has been cut (Or so I would assume), so the base of the stem is going to lose some potency.

So does that mean that i shouldn't cut my shrooms before drying?

I usually split them in half length ways and dry them by the fan, before finishing off with some desiccant.

If the oxidisation affects the potency then perhaps i'll stop cutting them..

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The main destruction of psilo compounds is an autooxidation. ie, from my understanding no external oxygen is required for this to proceed. It does appear though that the smaller the pieces are the faster the degradation is, with the fastest loss in an exposed solution.

Heat will almost immediately destroy psilocin. Heating shrooms in plain water to near boiling even momentarily will eliminate most if not all psilocin. Psilocybin on the other hand seems to be quite resistant to such short term heat exposures.

Food dehydrators at their usual 50-70 degC for the minimum time required don't appear to cause any loss in expected dry potency. ie this method is no more damaging than using dessicants at room temp.

And yes, I remember the camping trip well. At least I remember the blanket hat my face was planted in for several hours. That bottle was what would normally be a single dose . I got about half way and stopped because of the taste [ribena cordial is NOT the best option for masking :scratchhead:], which was lucky cos that turned out already a bit too much for me. The rest went to 3 different people who each got a good effect from their share too.

Most importantly though was not the difference in potency, but the difference in effect and I have written about that elsewhere. The experience was very meditative, almost sedating, and definitely primarily serotonergic. This is in contrast to normal cube experiences which are somewhat stimulating, and have a definite dopaminergic aspect to them [besides the expected serotonergic effect].

In other words, it was a totally different experience and the only thing that was done differently was that I put a little ascorbic acid into the water before brewing the cubes. I did this because I had no other edible acid handy, but also because I knew that it prevents the tea from going blue - and that could only be a good thing.

Given that there is quite a difference in the dopaminergic nature of other 4 substituted analogs I have come to the conclusion that there is indeed a qualitative difference between psilocin and psilocybin. This is controversial as it is widely assumed that all 4subs metabolise to psilocin to work their magic. I thoroughly and completely dispute this.

I think this qualitative difference would also account for the differences in various mushroom species and especially the differences in effect encountered when comparing high psilocin species in their dried vs fresh form.

The other note about ascorbic acid is that you can store such shroom tea in the freezer for a year or so with no perceivable loss, whereas without such addition such brews are usually fairly inactive by that time. Spraying ascorbic acid solution on your shrooms before drying will also protect the outer surfaces from excessive oxidation. This is commonly done in the commercial production of sclerotia in holland.

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My guess is some enzymatic change is also involved.

Ascorbic acid functionally interferes with cytochrome P450.

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My guess is some enzymatic change is also involved.

Ascorbic acid functionally interferes with cytochrome P450.

Absolutely not. Adding the ascorbic acid after the brewing and before consumption does not have any such effect.

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In the words of Stramonium (Posted earlier this year):

"Found an interesting insight regarding the blueing reaction and action of ascorbic acid. IMO, oxidised psilocin (dimeric quinone, inactive) could potentially be reduced to an active monomeric, phenolic psilocin derivative by ascorbic acid.

FUNGAL METABOLISM-IV. THE OXIDATION OF PSlLOCIN BY p-DIPHENOL OXIDASE (LACCASE)

(Received 14 April 1967)

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...ost&id=8108 ( 159.76K )

Abstract-The oxidation of psilocin catalysed by p-diphenol oxidase has been studied...

QUOTE:

"The blue product formed during the oxidation of psilocin was found to be readily reduced

to a colourless (straw coloured in concentrated solution) product by ascorbic acid or sodium

dithionite, and is thus probably quinonoid in nature. Studies previously reported of the

oxidation of phenols such 2,6-dimethoxyphenol and 2,6-dimethylphenol have shown that

dimeric quinones are obtained as products, these quinones were readily reduced by ascorbic

acid or sodium dithionite."

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QUOTE:

"The blue product formed during the oxidation of psilocin was found to be readily reduced

to a colourless (straw coloured in concentrated solution) product by ascorbic acid or sodium

dithionite, and is thus probably quinonoid in nature. Studies previously reported of the

oxidation of phenols such 2,6-dimethoxyphenol and 2,6-dimethylphenol have shown that

dimeric quinones are obtained as products, these quinones were readily reduced by ascorbic

acid or sodium dithionite."

AWESOME! I must have missed your earlier post on this.

In my very first description of using ascorbic acid in cube brews AFTER BREWING [as a storage preservative] I mentioned the distinctive STRAW colour of the sediment that forms if you leave the brew in the fridge for a day or so. In fact, the solution after brewing is entirely straw coloured but whatever causes the colour will settle out in time. There is however no difference in potency between the original straw colour solution and the resulting supernatant liquid, so I can't see how the straw coloured stuff can have much of an effect on the brew. Admittedly I did not try the straw coloured slime.

Putting ascorbic into the brew BEFORE heating does not seem to produce much of the straw coloured stuff, however that distinctive colour is definitely there.

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Absolutely not. Adding the ascorbic acid after the brewing and before consumption does not have any such effect.

Maybe you misunderstood, sorry. I did not mean an enzymatic change on the molecules themselves but rather the ascorbic acid modifies the way in which the bodies enzymes interact with the psilo molecules.

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Maybe you misunderstood, sorry. I did not mean an enzymatic change on the molecules themselves but rather the ascorbic acid modifies the way in which the bodies enzymes interact with the psilo molecules.

Not misunderstood :bootyshake: . if ascorbic had such an effect on endogenous enzymes then the effect should be just as pronounced if the ascorbic was added after brewing as compared to before brewing. However as the multiplication effect only happens if the ascorbic is added before brewing, the process of interest must be in the reaction [or lack thereof] that happens in the pot.

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post-5043-127923687386_thumb.jpg

Potential psilocin dimers?

Edited by Alchemica

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ribena cordial is NOT the best option for masking

I remember excitedly reading a shroomery thread years ago that proclaimed a new era in shroms by pre-dosing with a rather large amount of undiluted ribena juice. Rushed home (to Amsterdam) and tried it with a relatively small dose and found the effect was increased (and altered), though it wasn't worth the pain of drinking that much pure syrup. Ended up spewing rainbows soon after. Haven't drunk ribena since.

I did this because I had no other edible acid handy

yeah sure you didn't :P

The other note about ascorbic acid is that you can store such shroom tea in the freezer for a year or so with no perceivable loss, whereas without such addition such brews are usually fairly inactive by that time. Spraying ascorbic acid solution on your shrooms before drying will also protect the outer surfaces from excessive oxidation. This is commonly done in the commercial production of sclerotia in holland.

Interesting tidbits that I had never heard before! Thanks!

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