Jump to content
The Corroboree
Sign in to follow this  
mutant

Grafting Tricho seedlings on Pere

Recommended Posts

Well, I am quite new to cacti and grafting...

I would like to discuss strategics about grafting on pere , especially not in ideal conditions. Thing is wetter days are coming, still automn here is calm, we hardly if any get frost even in the winter anymore. 2 winters ago the brugmansias in the neighbourhood were flowering from september to april constantly !!

Well I have some protected outside / semioutside spots . The spot-on matter , is I guess , pere needs... What's the minimum temperature it can hold so that the scion isn't harmed ? Do pere grafts do fine inside, with some medium light? [so you have actual growth on scion] I have put one pere in semi shade, free root, to cause etiolation , I read this in teo's wonderful guide [ http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...eskiopsis+graft ] that etiolated plants are easiest to hande and with no spikes.

Well, the scions, they're not lopho, even though I got a number of spare pups... I have some 3-month old Tricho seedlings, wenderm, bridges, terscheckii and 2 peruv . I read it's preferable for the scion , and since I got some to , kind of , spare, especially terschekii and wernderm, I got only 6 bridge and 2 peru, and 3 others less than month pedros, for which I am more worried, as they are likely less hardy with the upcoming wet season of automn. Do you think I could also graft so young? And if yes, do you always use humidity tents for so small scions?

my first on lopho on pere seems to have taken, while another , with a 0,5cm pedro pup is still at stake.

it's interesting you say smaller scions are suited best for pere graft... why is that? can you comment on the scion positioning?

My pere stock is freshly rooted, no more than 1,5 month, but took well and quickly... they were in full sun before my initial grafts. My stock looks more or less like these

dscn3441vn0.th.jpg

And here are the previous 2 grafts

dscn3402gc9.th.jpg

What are the dangers in the attempt, regarding the less warm weather and increased humidity of upcoming automn?

Is it true that the bigger the stock before the graft, the bigger the grown rate of the scion? [most interested in premanent graft stock, like myrtillo, as I consider pere temporary]

I have stocked more that 10 myrti for future graft, so you might understand that I am on to 'what to do'

I also got this grafted lopho that took, I wonder how it would react if I planted it to the ground, in a semi-shade place, with few direct sun

dscn3394mw0.th.jpg

[pic is a bit older]

any input is welcome

PS: I know the peres are not well rooted and I wonder how bad this could be to the % success of my attempts. And so it comes again to what I asked earlier: how much does it affect the scion growth to be grafted on a well grown, big stock?

Of course I am thinking of permantent grafts in the soil, here, where the weather could allow it :):):)

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i found cereus to be a better stock with cold temps...just a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you say smaller scions are suited best for pere graft... why is that?

Easier to line up the vascular bundles and the smaller the scion, the less stress on the stock to hold it up (you dont want a big scion on a stilt - a little nudge could shake it off).

can you comment on the scion positioning?

Always sit the seedling scion a little off centre to ensure the vascular bundles make contact and ensure growth. Press gently on the scion when grafting to ensure there are no air pockets preventing full contact.

What are the dangers in the attempt, regarding the less warm weather and increased humidity of upcoming automn?

Just slowed growth. To fix that put the peres grafts under fluoro lighting thru autumn/winter.

Is it true that the bigger the stock before the graft, the bigger the grown rate of the scion?

It does mean that there is more surface area for photosynthesis to occur, so yes. However if the scion grows large enough it will do enough photosynthesis to take care of itself and the rootstock will just help keep water/nutes up.

the peres are not well rooted and I wonder how bad this could be to the % success of my attempts

Wait till they are well rooted and in vigourous growth (same with the seedlings). This will ensure the best success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank's a lot for answers... I wanted to try cereus for a long time.. it is a common house plant around here, so I might get some

So.... and what are you thoughts on planting this to the soil or migger pot? would it make any good?

dscn3483ax7.th.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only downside to cereus peruvianus stock is that the ribs are very thin so it means you might have a little more trouble getting a nice seat for the scion to sit on in comparison to a fat trich or myrt. Apart from that they should make great stocks and are very cold hardy and capable of surviving thru lots of moisture.

what are you thoughts on planting this to the soil or migger pot? would it make any good?

Dont plant in the earth if you get low temps (<2C). Myrts cannot survive frost (found out the hard way) and will turn to moosh, probably taking the scion with it or at least leaving it homeless. That graft looks very happy as it is for the moment (check them pups!) - I'd only repot if it's been in there all season and is rootbound. If its recently been repotted (less than 3 months) I'd keep it there pumping until next spring before putting into a pot about an inch or two wider.

I wouldn't really recommend planting grafts into the earth as they tend to be a little more meticulous to care for. Watering, feeding, bug control, etc can all be fairly easy in-ground, however if your not experienced you might find more problems in-ground than using pots. No harm in giving it a shot though :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

careful with that mix and over watering, sometimes myrts all of a sudden just collapse from root rot when kept wet for a while. other than that, looks good :) pot size seems right :)

ps. cereus make excellent stock....if planting in ground outside, cereus is better than myrtle for hardiness. and the skinny ribs fill in a lot once grafted :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you guys are great :)

I already know about Myrtillo is sensitive in less than

I'd only repot if it's been in there all season and is rootbound. If its recently been repotted (less than 3 months) I'd keep it there pumping until next spring before putting into a pot about an inch or two wider.

Ok, then I will leave it where it is, and wait more... :)

I wouldn't really recommend planting grafts into the earth as they tend to be a little more meticulous to care for. Watering, feeding, bug control, etc can all be fairly easy in-ground, however if your not experienced you might find more problems in-ground than using pots. No harm in giving it a shot though
can you elaborate more on this please, because I really do plan to eventually plant some of my cacti / grafts in the soil... I live in a very friendly climate, and the only baddie here is not a problem for cacti... Extreme dry weather in the summer... Of course I might have to fail sometimes to find the perfect spot, that's why I am trying to discuss it as much as I can, so as to know what to look for, and to know what can possibly go wrong.
To fix that put the peres grafts under fluoro lighting thru autumn/winter.

I suppose the artificial lighting should follow a steady programm, like on a timer, and not be random, huh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really do plan to eventually plant some of my cacti / grafts in the soil

I dont think there would be any huge issues, only that you dont have the option of moving the plant to a shady spot/hotter spot/away from bugs/what have you. I'm more thinking about your slightly harder to cultivate species like lophs - grafted trichs should be hardy as hell and would be fine I think. If you are keen to try it, I think it'd be a good way to find out how well they handle it (dont think I've heard of anyone planting grafted plants in-ground) - I can only imagine they'll pump out huge amount due to the happiness of the stocks.

I'd plant them in full sun, but directly after planting put a paper hat (cone-shaped piece of paper) on the scions to prevent sun burn, leaving it in place for about a week. They should be fine from then on and you shouldnt have any probs treating them as though they were just whatever species the stocks are (i.e. treat a cereus/loph graft as a cereus)

I suppose the artificial lighting should follow a steady programm, like on a timer, and not be random, huh?

Yeah put it on a timer for 12-18hrs light per day or just leave it running continually (I have done so with HPS and found nothing but happy plants with 24hr light). Not sure how lighting affects cacti flowering, but if you mainly just want growth then continual light is the best way to go indoors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
)

I suppose the artificial lighting should follow a steady programm, like on a timer, and not be random, huh?

Yeah put it on a timer for 12-18hrs light per day or just leave it running continually (I have done so with HPS and found nothing but happy plants with 24hr light). Not sure how lighting affects cacti flowering, but if you mainly just want growth then continual light is the best way to go indoors.

isn't it on 24 hour slight you have to have alot of nutreints something about switching form c4 to c3 metablosim? thats iirc which i porbably don't/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

isn't it on 24 hour slight you have to have alot of nutreints something about switching form c4 to c3 metablosim? thats iirc which i porbably don't/

Never heard of that - mind elaborating? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey,

yesterday I attempted one more graft, a 3 month old trich on pere, I was unpleasantly suprised that the trich seedling was ver very soft and almost watery, like, say, a very small grape . SO maybe I handled it too harsh, I don't think it will be a success... we will see....

is this normal, or is it that my seedlings are ill? Or is it that I should handle them more carefully on my next attempt?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cacti are CAM plants which means they intake CO2 at night, an adaptation so they dont loose too much water during the day by opening their stomata. Many CAM plants are able to switch to C3 metabolism if the environmental conditions are right. C4 is found in tropical grasses and is the fastest, C3 is normal metabolism and is second fastest, and CAM is an adaptation to dry climates and is slowest. Hence providing lots of water and means cacti could potentially switch to C3 and grow faster. Im convinced this happens with Trichs, not sure about lophs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another question so as not to open up another thread, I hope I dont abuse your willingness to reply to me :)

Well, in trying to protect cacti from rain and cold during the wetter/colder period, I know a columnar one still with its tip intact might etoliate a bit, if it continues to grow a bit during automn/minter. What would be the ill-effects of the same positionin [reduction of sun, that is] in a cactus with a cut tip, like a pair of myrtilo-loph or even pere-trich and + pere-lopho? Just reduction or halting of growth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sometimes young peresk grafts will etiolate cause they are growing really fast...even lophs...but myrtle grafts, or older grafts probably wont do much of anything.

the longest i had them in for was 2 months, and only a couple peresk grafts (lophs) stretched a bit, but it grows out fast and looks a little more normal later on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello people I hope I haven't already been annoying with all these questions...

I proceeded in grafting 3 lopho + 3 tricho on pere more , rather my last attempts [?] for this year.

now questions

question1

the tricho seedling I have grafted almost a month ago [actually it was regrafted after5-6 days, because I thought it had shriveled too much, and it finally seems to have taken] has taken a very sloppy angle towards 45 degrees, one can see the half bottom of the scion, even that redgrown spot in the center... still it seems to have swelled these days and becoming green again... is it possible to have established enough connection? Could it be possible that it aborts? and if so what could I take care [f.e. not expose to lots of dry atmosphere like many hours of direct sun?] and for how long?

question2

I also did 3 lopho more. The lopho pups were given by a friend, so they were not freshly popped out, still they were in pretty good shape, like the other one I grafter previdously, along with the tricho of question 1 . Ok, thing is, like the first attempt that worked fine, or so it seems, I didn't use humidity tent in those 3. now 2 of them have shriveled a bit.. I suppose this can happen as the scion looses water amounts, but is there something I could do to help? could I put humidity tent to help iot, or it might be best not to now?, [it's been 3 days or so] . So I guess the questions is should I put them in humidity tent or wait a bit more, and re-graft if no swelling occurs?

question3

I also grafted 3 of my precious small tricho. one wenderman, one brigde, one terscheckii. They were 3 months old or so, my first cacti grown from seed and first cacti grafted at so young age. The proceedure generally went fine, and I put them in hum. tents... how long should they stay in there, because I am afraid of rot/mould... on another take, how long can be the airing period during the day to allow it to air without endangering the scion? I mean, how long before the callous closes and it has no more humidity 'holes' - because a humidity tent might destroy it pretty fast if mould appears.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. this is common with bad joins and sometimes when over watered when fresh....if you dont bump it and treat it carefully it will grow fine and become stronger with age.

2. what stock? i wouldnt stick a myrtle/trich (stock) graft in a humidity tent, slightly higher humidity is ok though. How long since? when mine wrinkly a bit (after say 2 weeks) i water them and start to acclimate. regrafting due to wrinkles is not needed.....only if the join is obviously crap, then re graft.

3. what stock? myrtle in my climate i wait 7 days usually to start moving them to outside, 4-5 weeks total from graft to sun. pachanoi stocks are about the same time here. having certain stocks (ie columnars...ie not pereskiopsis/hylocereus) fully in a humidity tent can lead to bad things.....the stocks roots dont need humidity, the scions and stock join does only to prevent shrinkage/dehydration/separation (all related to drying out too fast).....so i tend to jsut keep them out of humidity anything and keep them in a "more humid -area-" of the house, always fine.

how bout some pics man.....im craving some pixels!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shit... sorry.. stock for questions 2+3 are Pere... not myrti.. sorry for the confusion...

I took some photos, but it wont help now at night..

dscn3527be6.th.jpgdscn3528oi7.th.jpg

I know I will get the comment 'your peres are too small' - believe me it was part of the ~obligatory~ strategy. I got the materials [small lopho pups and small pere cuts] too late anyway... late summer! Right now I didn't have any bigger pere cuts, and had to make a couple of more grafts as days are getting smaller and smaller and temperature falls.... the lopho pups were already taken off the mother plant [a gift], and it's my first time growing from seed anyway [my trichocerei babies] , and I know a newbie like me could loose my rest of 3-month-old seedlings, if something goes wrong... Why not risk one of each three in graftin it on pere [especially terschecki which I read is VERy slow when young].

I didn't use hum tent for the lopho [maybe I should, cause the mid one has shriveled a lot, I put it now individually], I use for the 3 grafted trichs and I wonder for how long should I keep it on... I am now leaving it to air for a couple of hours...

Kada, you're a treasure, I am very benefited and complimented by your tips. Be well! :)

Any comments are really appreciated. I like this place, thanks...

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think i would have used a tent.

but if they are dry now, may as well keep going unchanged..one thing i do with larger scions on peresk is tape them down. larger ones seem easier to pull up/separate.

your stocks look fine, not too short :) could be bigger, but they work....most of mine i do at about 10cm high....but we cant be waiting for everyone to come of age in time.

keep it up bro.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.. I think I understand now why small seedlings are best for pere... it's also a matter of stem diameter...

I think Hylocereus might be the best for mid sized scions....

Thanks for support mate, respect is rue :)

How many days will the tiny trichs hum tent be needed??? roughly [shit, I REALLY want these tricho to grow] ?

i know I sound a bit stupid, but what the fuck...

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

depends, jsut watch and see when the cut looks a little healed then remove. 5 days is often about right, depends on your plants and conditions though. make sure you pinch those offsets off right away...they have a way of sprouting daily sometimes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmm yeah, I regard the 5 day mark as the point from where on , the scion has stuck more or less, and its time to see if it stuck well... but for my larger scions attempts... I am just a bit afraid for the little ones, but I will new try to reach the 5 day mark, doing some airing, from time to time.. I think its more of a 'the wound to heal' thing, rather than humidity alone... thanks man

Edited by mutant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

with larger grafts, i wait till it looks "healed" more or less then remove the tape and keep in same location for another week...then move closer to outside and slowly adjust to the sun. times will vary on our different climates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cactidan, you have put permanent grafts in soil? any comments?

Eeehm, kada, Most of my grafts are done and staying outside, in a protected spot of course.. Adjustment has to do more with the sun, even though I understand the protected but shady spots are less cold in the winter time...

heck even these seelings/pups on pere are down in the areaway... hmmmmm.. interesting interesting... I would do many thing differently if I did all the cuttings now, but I am learning from it :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have moved them into pots and under lights for the winter to get more growth,flowering and fruiting.I will post a new pic and you can see the size difference flowers and fruit.They grew very nice in the ground and I will leave some in next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×