Looming Constitutional Challenge on plant use as religious freedom

[notguilty]

The silence is concerning?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...5_webpot10.html

'Here Ravin raises two basic claims: first, that there is no legitimate state interest in prohibiting possession of marijuana by adults for personal use, in view of the right to privacy; and secondly, that the statutory classification of marijuana as a dangerous drug, while use of alcohol and tobacco is not prohibited, denies him due process and equal protection of law'

Edited August 31, 2008 by entheofarm

[niall]

Sorry guys, hectic week - still not on top of responding to everyone's PMs, but it's really great to see so many of them. I've been concentrating on getting all details of the case up on a website with forum etc. so we can get everyone together in the one place to discuss. Part of this is waiting on us coming up with a list of definitive things to do to help - donations is the obvious first one, the defendants are literally running out of food on a regular basis now. Bank account for donations should be ready tomorrow, I'll put all details up on the site.

The timeline is not shaping up the way my friends expected, it's been over 18 months since the charges and they're only just learning how long this case will take to get through County let alone Supreme and then onto High Court. In my own ignorance I've just repeated what they've told me, it's all pretty new to all of us the procedural side of things, so my talk of "Looming" and "pending" now seems a bit premature. The guys are not sure if they can hold out another 2 years, it really does feel like the system is stacked against them. They're looking into options to fasttrack this as the current Court has come right out and said they can't decide on those matters, so hopefully there's a way we can apply to go straight there or to speed up the process somehow as it's taking a big toll on them. I'm no lawyer, it's all pretty new as I say, but hopefully they'll get some actual legal *advice* later this week. It's hard to know who is on your side, what underlying strategy is being used etc. without knowing the rules and procedures of each Court. Doesn't seem right, all these chats behind closed doors, this "you're not qualified let us handle it for you" kind of mysterious-secret-knowledge feel to all of it, very much a Brotherhood with secret rules and no we can't tell you the rules kind of vibe :-(

Getting to understand a little more of the process though. The last few weeks were parts 1 and 2 of the Directions hearing in County Court Victoria. Trial is currently slated for early November, sounds like there's another hearing or two to sort out the procedural side of things, witnesses and experts etc. So things are progressing, just not at the pace that we'd like - and it all feels kind of pointless being at County when they can't decide on most of the points of law in the defence, and certainly none of the Constitutional issues (vast majority of the case). Bloody expensive and drawn out business, it's been quite a wakeup call for myself. Makes me want to learn the rules of the game, you really do feel powerless at this level as the system is clearly very busy and time is understandably precious for the Judges and Barristers hopping from courtroom to courtroom all day.

However we're still on track, and extremely busy getting everything prepared. I've got the website up and ready just need the guys to give it their nod and I'll post the URL and direct everyone there with the occasional update posted here. We're going to need your help though guys, donations are urgently needed so once we go live please contact us if you can afford to donate anything however small. I've put $200 in so far and I expect to put more in and help out with costs right the way through. But we're also going to need people to show their support in Court where possible, and for people to submit supporting briefs and statements on the points of law raised (this is now more of a longer term thing than I was led to believe), and many more things will come up down the road.

Cannabis is kind of a detail at this stage, the argument is really about access to safe and effective plants that are incorrectly prohibited or over-regulated - so this is relevent to pretty much all of the substances discussed here and elsewhere. We're not arguing for free availability, only appropriate regulation for each particular plant or substance based on science and realworld public health - not moral judgement, ignorance and bigotry.

More soon, sorry about the delays guys it's a lot of work for so few people but I think we're almost past the hump now. A PR version of the brief is now finished and this is already up on the website, just need to get the nod to open it up and let you guys all in to read some detail on what this case is about. I'll have an announce mailing list up in the next day or so, first job for me is to get a list of everyone who's interested in being updated on a regular basis and helping out where required - thanks for all of the PMs so far! If there's anyone else you know out there that will be interested in this case, in contributing or helping, or anything really - tell them to PM me

Cheers guys, stay tuned.

Edited April 8, 2017 by niall

[Yeti101]

Hi niall.

Sorry to hear about it dragging out - I spoke to a mate who is almost a lawyer and he said something like this might happen.

I get paid next week, so maybe I can chip in something. Tell your friends to hang in there.

Yeti101

[triskele]

Hey Niall

First up can I say, as a law student, I have been waiting for this to happen, and I'm morally behind you guys all the way. I am highly appreciative of people who are willing to stand up for their convictions - congratulations!

Second, in response to your comment:

I'm hopeful for a unanimous decision with no explanation, a simple "Yes you're absolutely right - all laws are hereby struck". Hey, I can hope, but the fact that I'm hoping for the best outcome out of all the possible positive outcomes should tell you something ;-)

Unfortunately, this is not even a possible outcome. High court judges (indeed all judges) are required to give reasons for their decisions (ratio decidendi), so there will never be a decision with no explanation. Second, unanimous decisions are extremely rare. Justice Kirby is very left wing, so he would probably interpret things in your favour (assuming you have a really really really really tight case). Not so sure about the rest.

I also took note about your comments on lawyers being mysterious etc. Trust me, they are not doing that to exclude you - the law really is quite complex, and takes many years of study and experience to even begin to understand. Most lawyers try to make it as comprehensible as possible for their clients.

Anyhoo, best of luck, and keep us updated

[notguilty]

perhaps the decision will be/could be/should be "The High Court of Australia has no Authority to rule on this"?

Highly unlikely I know.

What of French replacing Gleeson?

Edited September 1, 2008 by entheofarm

[Genesis]

We really need this to work people. I have nothing to offer but some petty cash and the odd court appearance. If you keep us posted on court dates I wil try and make it down to support you guys... Note I know nothing of the law or the court system, sorry.

But anything I can do to help man...

Gen

[celestariel]

Hey Niall,

Seems like a pretty noble case for human rights you have there.

I'm currently studying Enviro Law at uni. I was thinking that you may want to research any international conventions that advocate for the protection of religious and spiritual rights and traditions, as the australian legislature must reflect international conventions that we ratify as a nation.

There is precident (my understanding) where a convicted drug dealer and his family were to be deported, when he challenged the sentencing as contradicting an international convention (Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) I think) that we as a nation ratified, and one of the principles of that convention was the protection of children. He therefore claimed being deported was risking his childs safety and won his case. (refer minister vs teoh (1995)CLR 273, 287). I believe he was still jailed but in Australia, and his family was able to remain.

Perhaps

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (1965) or

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (1966)

Just a thought.

You may want to check out there principles as support for your case, and there is precident.

And if you go the high or supreme courts this is the highest form of convention and protocol that creates our common law system.

Good luck.

Hi guys,

A friend is taking his case all the way to the High Court, and we're looking for interest parties who have a stake in this case to make submissions.

In particular we're looking for anyone in Australia who uses plants/herbs of any kind in a religious context, and also in a medicinal context for healing. The case involves cannabis, but we're looking for submissions from anyone who uses (or believes in the use of) currently prohibited plants and herbs for religious and/or medical reasons. The case will be touching on the long established history of beneficial plants being used by established religions and cultures - and their persecution, which we believe continues today. I'm particularly interested in hearing from indigineous communities who are now unable to use their traditional medicines and plants.

If you know of anyone who might be interested, please pass on my contact details. The case proceeds in August and we may be heading straight to the High Court from there later in the year. We expect to win, this is a very comprehensive and solid case.

Thanks guys, feel free to forward this message on to anyone you think may be interested. Please PM or email me if you're willing to stand up for your religious/medical use of whole plants and submit supporting documentation to the High Court.

[email protected]

[niall]

Ok guys here we go:

www.CannabisFacts.info

We've (finally!) got some basic information up there now. More specific details on the defense are still being revised for public consumption - we need to be careful about what gets out at this stage but we're going to outline the main points from the brief for you guys to get an idea of where we're going with this.

Right now we have a fairly urgent situation - the defendants are running out of money for food on a regular basis. We have bank details up on the site for you to donate - you'll need to create an account and sign in to view the donation page. If you are in a position to support this case please read through the information we've posted and make a donation. I've put $200 in recently and am doing what I can to help out with transport and other costs, if you are able to afford $50-100 or more then please consider supporting these guys as they really do need our help right now.

Trial has been scheduled for November. This is in County Court, so the constitutional arguments cannot be decided quite yet, but this first trial is going to be an absolute gem. I believe it's scheduled for 5 or 10 days worth, if you are able to take time off work to attend then I think you'll enjoy it.

[Thelema]

There was a case trialled in the early 90's in perth magistrates? court or maybe supreme court that allowed a rasta to get off charges smoking a joint in the main street of a city. it happened to be a rasta holy day and the judge agreed in it's spiritual use. i do not think the case was written up in any reports. I remember reading abut it in the west australian newspaper.

[notguilty]

Only a magistrates court so I don't think any precedent can be used, but it would be interesting to read the reason for the decision. If it was the supreme court and a precedent was set it should have been published, or are they hiding something?!

Great work niall

and yeah if you can find a supreme court or high court judgement that confirms we are bound by international treaties then it's another move in the right direction.

Edited September 7, 2008 by entheofarm

[puck]

early Nov? any more specific dates?

very interested in doing anything i can to help here - after EGA last year i was very gung-ho about doing something like this myself, until i took the drug-enhanced spirituality thing a bit too far and (more to the point) ungrounded. but still very much supportive.

Am given to understand that High Court is only Court that can hear Constitutional arguments, thus you should be able to get there without going one-by-one up the ladder, but am no lawyer.

[niall]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys but it's been a busy couple of months. Update posted by lightning over at OzStoners.com - anyone who is able to attend the case this week it's Wednesday to Friday at County Court, details below. Feel free to PM me if you want to meet out front before we go in. lightning's post follows:

https://cannabis.community.forums.ozstoners...showtopic=21064

As we approach the 403 anniversary of Guy Faulks day this coming Wednesday and we are just a few days from Trial

the circus of the vic legal system continues in style.

Yesterday the Lawyers we had in place,

ordered by the court under a section 360 of the crimes act

application and paid for by Legal aid, to present our case told us

that "The obligations they have to the court due to the oath they have

taken precludes them from presenting to the court the arguments we

wish to present in our defense and that as we are not restricted by

the same obligations may be better off presenting our case ourselves". Cowards, These are the same lawyers who just weeks ago told us we had

the strongest political and legal arguments they had ever seen but

believed that unless we got a rogue jury who decided to throw out the

law we would lose at county court but WIN at high court, but they

were prepared to tell the jury that they the jury could ignore the

judge and find us not guilty on the basis that the law is unjust!

Makes one wonder what conversations

went on in the background to make them suddenly change their minds.

Anyway after careful consideration

Litlltbit and I have decided to go ahead ourselves and to attempt to

get the jury to nullify the law and we are prepared to push the

envelope to get there, but using rational logic and argument and

holding them to letter and spirit of the law not by rambling or ignoring

the jurisdiction of the courts.

Anybody who is in Melbourne on

Wednesday Thursday or Friday of this coming week the dates are 5-7

Nov 2008 and would care to turn up give moral support in this fight would be

greatly appreciated. Alternatively if you just want to turn up to

watch the theatre feel free.

The Details of the Court case are

Queen Vs M &E Pallett

10 am 5 November 2008

Criminal Hearing room

County Court of Victoria

250 William Street, Melbourne VICTORIA

3000

Feel free to approach us in breaks and let

us know you are there.

If anyone else was thinking of giving

any other form of support to the fight now is the time to do it as we

have made the decision to not pay our rent this fortnight in order to

be able to pay the cost of transport/parking/freewaytolls etc to court for the week and be

able to get some lunch/coffee etc while there.

Surviving on the pension is for us likeall others in that boat very tough at this point and the Governments

Christmas bonus will not hit till the trial is over.

The arguments we intend to push include over twenty distinct points of law, Commonwealth and international

that are contradicted by the drugs poisons and controlled substances act of Victoria and show it to be illegitimate.

Grace and Entho have read the brief in full (thanks guys) and

can give comment on the value of our arguments

Nobody who has read the finished brief has been able to shoot holes in it so yet so let us all hope we have got it

right and the nightmare of prohibition ends for ALL.

Once we have lodges the argument with the court and it becomes public we will post

it for all to read for themselves.

Thanks to all from this place that have helped on the way through the long and drawn out preparation for this step of this process. (we are almost two years down the track from the bust, bugger have we learnt a lot or what )

Who knows with luck we may accomplish the impossible and throw out the ratification of the treaty and that

would be a day for rejoicing.

If things go badly Niall will update all on what happens cause we will be... er um otherwise disposed.

matt (lightning)

[apothecary]

Please support these guys if you can spare it everyone!

Such opportunities to make direct and legitimate challenges to the law are extremely rare and it would be foolish to let one like this slip by over a lack of money.

[complex]

Hi niall,

when I try to access the donation page I receive this error:

"Access denied

You are not authorized to access this page."

If fixing this takes too much time, just PM me the details I need to make a donation.

and secondly, is it a 10am start on friday too? There is a chance I will be able to get off work on friday, and I would like to come down.

thanks!

[Torsten]

when I try to access the donation page I receive this error:

"Access denied

You are not authorized to access this page."

Just had the same problem. Please post when fixed.

[niall]

Sorry guys you need to register an account to view the page, we don't want his bank details up for all to see. PM me for details if you prefer.

[Micromegas]

Very interesting. Best of luck with this guys. As someone who has experienced the wonder of plant medicine in countries where it is both legal and culturally accepted I find the situation in Australia to be frustrating legally and emotionally. If I were in Melbourne I would be there for sure.

I'll be sure to make a donation though to help the cause, unfortunately I am a person of limited means myself

I must say I find the manner in which you have approached the case to be very sincere. I hope this attitude wil serve you well in court and help to change the attitude towards plant use more generally whatever the final outcome.

Micro

Edit: there doesn't seem to be an account name for tranfer details?

Edited November 2, 2008 by Micromegas

[notguilty]

Good luck lightning and littlbit

I chipped in what I could (not much) and encourage everyone to dig deep and help out in anyway they can.

give em hell

[niall]

Edit: there doesn't seem to be an account name for tranfer details?

Fixed, anyone who doesn't want to register on CannabisFacts.info just PM me and I'll send bank details for your much needed donations!

Lightning has signed up for an account so as soon as Torsten enables it he'll post an update here himself.

[Micromegas]

I have already signed up for the site. I just don't know what account name to use to make the transfer

[notguilty]

The Details of the Court case are

Queen Vs M and E Pallett

that would be the account name at a guess?

[niall]

Micromegas - account name is now fixed on the site or PM me for it.

[lightning]

CASE UPDATE

Real quick update then I have to get back to do some home work the judge gave me.

So far so good as the base jumper said.

Good news first, Judge is onside mostly and prepared to allow a claim of necessity to go before the jury but her hounor is not so quick to grab hold of the idea that the government breaching their obligation under the treaty to "ensure adequate supply for medical and scientific usage" has compelled our necessity to grow our own medicine. She was "shocked" to know the TGA system for special Access scheme was broken and unworkable or that no doctor in Melb can get up and say that Cannabis helps us with our pain without being deregistered.

Two minutes in we had her honour and the persecutor reaching for their law books. She has asked me to back some of my statements with legeal precedent which is my homework to print off the highcourt decisions that back our claims

She is entertaining the idea that the points of law we have raised, as they are out of her jurisdiction, may have to be referred BY HER (which would be an urgent special leave application which completely jumps the queue) to the High court for a decision of law before the case continues to trial!!

find out tomorrow how we go

Niall will update more later

me go do HW

[niall]

Can't add much more than that really, it was a really interesting afternoon. Jurisdiction and what the Judge can hear in County Court took up most of the afternoon, and for a long while things didn't look good, but then the penny seemed to drop for both the Judge and the Prosecutor as to the possibility of what lightning was suggesting to her.

The prosecution did not look very happy a few times today, particularly when the brief was distributed, and the Judge is really making an effort to give lightning room to make his argument and back up some of the details he mentioned today with exact precedence and references.

Jury selection should start in the morning as there weren't enough jurors available today. 10:30am at County Court Melbourne if anyone can make it, Court 7.1

[Torsten]

wow, so cool to seee this progressing. Lightning - I admire your courage and dedication!

Is there a problem in finding these precedents or is it just a matter of looking them up?