Jump to content
The Corroboree
Teotzlcoatl

"Lost Peyotes" and other Psychoactive or Medicinal Cacti

Recommended Posts

Nah, people just don't wanna investigate the dearly beloved plants they've spent years procuring and nurturing. Can't blame 'em 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i know this post goes back a fair while but i figured it would be the best place to post considering its still somewhat active... looking for info on active Armatocereus if someone could point me in the right direction.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armatocereus Laetus  was used as an entheogen.

Edited by mr b.caapi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can i get a source please? was curious who used it, how and if there was an alkaloid profile recorded by anyone.

not that i intend on ingesting any, was more just for personal research purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd suggest not trusting the claims on A. laetus made by Wade Davis. Or at least regarding them with caution.

MAYBE his field data is based on what someone told him but when I asked him about the claim he had made about it undergoing testing, he said McKenna had found mescaline in it. He repeated this to me again, apparently after speaking with Dennis. Problem was I had also asked Dennis by then, who said he never analyzed any cactus beyond a Dragendorff field test and he had never found mescaline in a cactus. Davis responded to this revelation not by owning his bs but  by saying I needed to try it.  The most important element in that suggestion is Davis did not ingest it or see it being ingested and based his account on anecdote.  I suspect someone was just being helpful towards an ethnobotanist wanting to be told about more plants. It would not be the first time this has occurred of course.

A. laetus HAS been analyzed and reported to contain nothing of interest. A more detailed look would be nice but don't put too much weight in this area.

Edited by trucha
may have crossed the line?
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Australian_Dream this is why this topic is so interesting! Nobody really knows, we only have small little bites of information. If you decide to proceed be extremely careful!

 

Thank you for the info Trout. If this plant was analyzed and it didn't find anything then most likely Australian_Dream won't find anything either. However there is still is a slight chance you might and since no poisonous compounds were found you can feel a bit safer about it but still be very careful please!

 

I am most excited by finding medicinal or psychoactive compounds that are NOT mescaline but some other compound. To me, that is the most interesting aspect of this investigation. 

 

Trucha what is a Dragendorff field test if I may ask?

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a reagent test that shows the simple presence of alkaloids due to forming a precipitate. It is made from potassium iodide and bismuth subnitrate in an acidic solution or is available commercially. 

Concentration of alkaloids can be crudely estimated based on the turbidity if a person has much experience with using it. (Silicotungstic acid has been more commonly used for this same crude application in Australian work and appears to be a better choice.)

It does not say what alkaloids are present but is used as a field screening (meaning it is done while a person is still in the field rather than after coming back home)  to check if something is worth looking into more deeply. It also is commonly reported to fail with some alkaloids or to work for some people and not for other people.

 

One recurrent element has been a low degree of rigor for people who really want to make a discovery and therefore push things into print prior to having enough facts. That has occurred in a couple of cases. Armatocereus laetus (aka pishicol) being one of them and Brasiliopuntia brasiliensis (aka tchai) being another. In both cases these most likely came about when an informant ran out of things to share with the ethnobotanist but as a friendly host did not want to disappoint them.  There is no problem putting tentative and unproven claims into print but having openness to those turning out to be wrong is also important when doing so. When something fails to be supported in analysis or large animal bioassays the burden of proof falls on those who were making the claims not on those pointing out there is a lack of supportive evidence. A lot of wasted time can be saved by recognizing that people can get attached to their theories and may even develop a confirmation bias against evidence that is in conflict with what they want to believe. One confounding problem is there is really no decent venue for publishing a lack of results so analysis finding nothing and other types of evaluation that had negative results are unlikely to find their way into print. A Journal of Negative Outcomes would be useful but seems unlikely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 26/12/2020 at 8:10 AM, Australian_dream said:

i know this post goes back a fair while but i figured it would be the best place to post considering its still somewhat active... looking for info on active Armatocereus if someone could point me in the right direction.

 

According to E. Wade Davis (1983):

 

[...] close to Huancabamba, found only on the steep slopes of an isolated geological formation known as the Cerro Colorado, there occurs a second species of psychoactive cactus named pishicol ( Armatocereus laetus (HBK.) Backeberg) ( Davis 759). This plant, previously unreported as an hallucinogen, is an extremely rare endemic known from only four localities, all in northern Peru: Jaen, east of the Abra Porculla on the boundary of the departments of Piura and Cajamarca, Sondorillo, and Huancabamba on the Rio Huancabamba (Zimmerman pers. comm.). It is a tall columnar, night-blooming cactus (12 feet), with erect, articulated branches with six to eight ribs. According to Dr. Allan Zimmerman, an expert in the neotropical Cactaceae, there are two other Armatocereus species in the region, but "one {A. Rauhii Backeb. has shorter spines and is a tall slender tree; the other (A. Ghiesbreghtii (K. Schumann) Ritter, var. oligogonus (Rauh. et. Backeberg) Ritter.) has stems that are only four to five ribbed." (Zimmerman pers. comm.). Pishicol is considered by don Pancho Guarnizo to be as powerful as San Pedro and is prepared and ingested in a similar way [...]

Davis_BML29.4_367_oct1983.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×