paradox Posted May 29, 2009 sorry teotz i probably sound like a wanker... man i'd like to hear more about that, be sure to post when more info comes to light. like, which area of Mexico is your friend from? which tribal group is this friend of a friend of a friend associated with? so the cactus was being used in a religious context. in what way was the cactus being used? was it used as a symbolic object or a talisman? an offering? was it processed in any way? was it consumed? was it consumed specifically for it's entheogenic effect or was it used for a completely different religious purpose? roughly how many individual plants were used? some of those questions may be quite specific but if your friend is friends with someone who is friends with the people using this cacti, perhaps that info is available to him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfish Posted May 29, 2009 http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6027/lostpeyotes.jpg 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) Yes... thank you Catfish, very funny. Now... back to "Lost Peyotls"! Edited May 29, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KanJe Posted May 29, 2009 somehow i don't think you're taking this seriously pffft I apologise if that seemed off topic or trollish. I was trying to illustrate how incomprehensible the long term outcome might be from introducing some overseas plants into our native ecology. My point is that anything could happen, there are just too many unknown factors. I know this has pretty much been covered, I just wanted to clear that up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted May 29, 2009 I apologise if that seemed off topic or trollish. I was trying to illustrate how incomprehensible the long term outcome might be from introducing some overseas plants into our native ecology. Well Paradox corrected me and I'm no longer advocating that. Grow them in pots, I guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mutant Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) Re: Catfish LOL! muhahahahahahahaha paradox, good questions Edited May 29, 2009 by mutant Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) Now... back to "Lost Peyotls" PLEASE! some of those questions may be quite specific but if your friend is friends with someone who is friends with the people using this cacti, perhaps that info is available to him? I'm working on finding that information. Edited May 30, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PD. Posted May 30, 2009 Teotz, i dont think Paradox was showing you any "attitude" in the way he was asking a question! You have asked me to keep this a nice clean thread without BS cluttering it up so dont make assumptions that ppl are showing you attitude and definitely dont post as such, it only causes arguments and you know it!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted May 30, 2009 Edited post. It was the way the questions were presented. I'll try to find the information and post it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted June 1, 2009 I apologise if that seemed off topic or trollish. I was trying to illustrate how incomprehensible the long term outcome might be from introducing some overseas plants into our native ecology.My point is that anything could happen, there are just too many unknown factors. I know this has pretty much been covered, I just wanted to clear that up. oh haha sorry bro i thought you were being sarcastic heheh, my bad. teotz i just thought i'd make some suggestions about some lines of inquiry you might want to follow up with regarding your foafoaf. i mentioned that maybe i was being a bit short in earlier posts but then i was trying to be polite & constructive. my point was, it would be great if you could find out more relevant info, as stating that a friend of a your friends friend may have used this cacti in ceremony can't really be taken as anything but substanceless internet hearsay. i would have thought that would be something you'd be into. y'know, maybe work out some relevant & interesting questions to ask your friend in mexico. find out if he knows any more about it. is he still in contact with his indigenous friend, can he find out more specific facts etc you know what i'm sayin? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 1, 2009 as stating that a friend of a your friends friend may have used this cacti in ceremony can't really be taken as anything but substanceless internet hearsay. Yes, I totally understand, but he is not an internet contact, he lives in the deserts of Mexico and is an old friend, we only communicate by snail mail, so it takes awhile. i would have thought that would be something you'd be into. y'know, maybe work out some relevant & interesting questions to ask your friend in mexico. find out if he knows any more about it. is he still in contact with his indigenous friend, can he find out more specific facts etc you know what i'm sayin? When you present it like that, hell ya! I want some freaking answers! Obregonia denegrii has NEVER been supported as being a traditional Native American "Peyote" species. I am very skeptical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted June 1, 2009 don't know how factual this is but what about this? O. denegrii Obregonia denegrii Date: 1996 November 5 Location: Tamaulipas Obregonia denegrii clearly thrives here, but many plants had been washed out of the ground by rain. Charlie Glass tells us that there have been washed out plants every time he has visited the site, and there is serious erosion. Interestingly, someone had made quite an extensive planting of Agave lechuguilla, the istle agave, apparently partly to increase the supply of fibres, but also undoubtedly to help fight the erosion. A rare 7 cm high cactus that resembles an inverted green pine-cone with a wooly center, laying in the rocks. Has triangular tubercles arranged in overlapping spirals. Fall blooming, with pink flowers and a large taproot. Sacred to several Mexican Indians. Another type of "living rock" Cactus. Native to Tamaulipa, Mexico. Will not tolerate cold nor will it graft well. Needs full Sun. Contains: horenine (.002%), tyramine (.003%), N-methyltyramine (.0002%). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 1, 2009 Sacred to several Mexican Indians. But that is all they tell us...? I wanna know more! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted June 2, 2009 But that is all they tell us...?I wanna know more! well you have an old friend who seems to have some pretty interesting contacts in this exact area. you have all the pieces splayed out in front of you. why do you need someone else to tell you these things? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
~shameless~ Posted June 2, 2009 well you have an old friend who seems to have some pretty interesting contacts in this exact area. you have all the pieces splayed out in front of you. why do you need someone else to tell you these things? You know what Paradox, that is all you need for the perfect road trip, a vauge contact and a vauge purpose. What a great reason for a weeks holiday! All you need Teotz is a passport and a sense of adventure ( maybe an assault riffle lol ) (Sorry about this post its a bit off topic,) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paradox Posted June 2, 2009 You know what Paradox, that is all you need for the perfect road trip, a vauge contact and a vauge purpose.What a great reason for a weeks holiday! damn straight! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 2, 2009 (Sorry about this post its a bit off topic,) It's ok, thanks for being nice about it I like nice people. But yes, I certainly plan to travel to Mexico.... he is trying to set up a session with the Obregonia users, if he is able to do so... I'm going to drive out there! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Report from my friend- So I finally was able to talk to my dad’s mechanic, he told me that he is from the Tarahumara Indian Tribe and comes from the Copper Canyon area. They use obregonia denegrii to help in healing open wounds (fight infections) by taking the juice of the plant and apply it the wound. For bad bruising, they pickle the plants with alcohol and then apply it to the bruised area like a topical solution. When they are out on their pilgrimage to collect peyote they also collect obregonia denegrii cacti, he says that they go northeast of Torreón to collect their plants for their religious ceremony. During the ceremony they ask their God to bless the obregonia denegrii cacti to help in healing the injuried. They do not eat it. This is the first reputed usage of Obregonia as a "Peyote", even Mr.Smith's book says it has no basis as a "Peyote"... looks like he may have overlooked something! If this is true than this will be the first known use of Obregonia as a medicinal cacti. Before we jump to any conclusions, I will ask my contact to send me a live specimen to be identified Edited June 4, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KanJe Posted June 4, 2009 Do you think it was one of the 'false peyote' that were used as a substitute like Turbs and Astros? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 4, 2009 I'm not sure I know what you mean KanJe. Some Ariocarpus are known as "False Peyotl" if that is what you are asking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M S Smith Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Report from my friend- So I finally was able to talk to my dad’s mechanic, he told me that he is from the Tarahumara Indian Tribe and comes from the Copper Canyon area. They use obregonia denegrii to help in healing open wounds (fight infections) by taking the juice of the plant and apply it the wound. For bad bruising, they pickle the plants with alcohol and then apply it to the bruised area like a topical solution. When they are out on their pilgrimage to collect peyote they also collect obregonia denegrii cacti, he says that they go northeast of Torreón to collect their plants for their religious ceremony. During the ceremony they ask their God to bless the obregonia denegrii cacti to help in healing the injuried. They do not eat it. This is so patently incorrect it sickens me. I have multiple books on the Tarahumara and their ethnobotany, and not only don't these books mention O. denegrii, but O. denegrii grows nowhere even near Torreón, much less northeast of Torreón. O. denegrii is from the Jaumave Valley in Tamaulipas, Mexico, which is about 300 miles (close to 500 km) southeast of Torreón. Also, the Tarahumara have traditionally collected their L. williamsii near Ojinaga, Mexico, which is about the same distance from Torreón as Jaumave, but to the north. Jaumave is nearly 600 miles southeast of the Tarahumara of the Copper Canyon, this while the Tarahumara collected L. williamsii about 250 miles northeast of the Copper Canyon. This is the first known usage of Obregonia as a "Peyote", even Mr.Smith's book says it has no basis as a "Peyote"... looks like he was wrong! Teotz, you and one other are the reasons why I don't actively post anymore, and should you have taken a minute to think and research rather than repeat you could have discounted your friend before he made you look like a gullible fool and you put forward the patently improbable. I might note as an edit that E.F. Anderson doubts its ceremonial use, this even though he does say it is "sometimes called" peyote. But regardless, I have so little trust in you Teotz that I'm inclined to believe that you made up your "friends" quote yourself. ~Michael~ Edited June 4, 2009 by M S Smith Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) I appreciate your input and actually trust your advice more than my contact in Mexico. I will mail him your response along with my many questions. I think he must be identifying it wrong or something. Thank you so much for your input Mr.Smith. Hmm... I can't believe that my contact would make up such specific locations if this were a hoax or something.... I need to look into this further. Edited June 4, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KanJe Posted June 4, 2009 Regardless of what the facts are here Teotz', it's obvious your intentions were were in the right place. Keep it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Regardless of what the facts are here Teotz', it's obvious your intentions were were in the right place. Keep it up. Well I need to be careful about keeping the facts straight and not letting things out to early when I don't have much proof... but thank you very much! Edited June 4, 2009 by Teotz' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites