"Lost Peyotes" and other Psychoactive or Medicinal Cacti

[Teotzlcoatl]

*Updates soon*

http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.asp...osts&t=3223

Edited January 13, 2009 by Teotz'

[M S Smith]

So you couldn't "make it" at real cactus discussion forums so you go somewhere where you sound smart because you are talking about a topic unfamiliar to most of the participants.

There are no such things as "Lost Peyotes" - this is fully a creation of Teotz's (Coatl's) imagination. I'm still trying to figure out what the term even means.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

Hey! I'm updating here soon so the experts can tell me whats what!

Edited January 13, 2009 by Teotz'

[Auxin]

Michael, sometimes you are unfair to Teotz. I understand how some of his research and social quirks causes you to loose respect and patience for him, I've seen that happen everywhere he goes (no offence Teotz) but your no jelly brain, I know you understand the concept of what he calls 'lost peyotes' because you yourself have indicated such in your own published works. For instance, you talking about non-Lophophora 'peyote's:

Unfortunately the people most associated with the use of the majority of these species, the Tarahumara of Mexico, are rapidly disappearing through assimilation into contemporary Mexican culture before further ethnological and ethnobotanical studies can be completed. Left largely undocumented is how these species were revered, selected, prepared, or what quantity was used for any given purpose.

And in your writing on Gymnocalycium you seem to lament the fact that the cultures who used south american cacti were obliterated before their knowledge was preserved. Sometimes you also seem to be down on him for wanting to explore the potential of species which are not thoroughly documented in anthropological field work, how did these ancient cultures find those plants? They experimented, often without the help of untold centuries. Again I'll quote the same book written by you

The hidden powers of many of these plants will go unknown till modern experimenters begin the search again, this time without the help of untold centuries.

(Sacramental and Medicinal Cacti, Michael S. Smith, 2002) His intentions do have a rational basis. While I wholeheartedly agree with you on some critiques of his investigative methods and his tendency toward somewhat irresponsible reporting of information to others its not reasonable to automatically discount everything he says simply because its him. He is obviously talking about species which are believed to have been used by cultures who changed or ceased to exist and the information on their use was lost.

To paraphrase an old proverb: He who can not agree with his adversary is controlled by him.

Teotz, I believe these points cant be emphasized enough: if you do experiment be careful- I dont want you screwing up your liver or dieing or anything, when sharing info with others make sure you are very clear what is proven and what is hypothetical, and try to develop more unbiased scientific rigor in your methods.

[M S Smith]

He he he, "jelly brain." Yeah, sorry, sort of lost my patience there didn't I?

From my perspective a "peyote" is a "peyote" and the discussion of a plant that is known as, or is reputed to be, a peyote is a discussion of just that, not a "lost" one. I think my dislike of the Teotz created term "Lost Peyote" is because it cheapens the discussion and sounds cheezy.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

I agree that the term "Lost Peyote" is silly, made-up, completely unscienticfic... but come on Mr.Smith... you know it sounds cool!

Thanks for your post Auxin!

The hidden powers of many of these plants will go unknown till modern experimenters begin the search again, this time without the help of untold centuries.

Ya Mr.Smith! Your my hero! I thought your book was amazing! But I'm not going to stop..

Know what I mean?

Pelecyphora aselliformis always pops in my head at times like these... the Natives knew it as a "Peyote", a "True Peyote"... but what do we know about it?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Teotz'

[M S Smith]

Carry on.

~Michael~

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'm not sure I really understand what you mean?

Carry on talking about Pelecyphora?

Why don't you tell me everything you know about it... Any idea of dosage or anything? Any idea how it was prepared? Was it it along with Lophophora?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Teotz'

[Inyan]

For what it's worth, Auxin... I respect you for pointing these things out and being the first to do so. Personal grudges/feelings aside... we are all here to learn and share and no one here boasts of being perfect or knowing everything to my knowledge. Teotz may not be an expert, but I sure as heck like the term lost peyote or lost pejuta... either way, my mind constructs images of sacramental plants/cacti, etc. that may have fallen out of disuse for one reason or another. Silliness and unscientific brings to mind images of a heyoka I once knew. Clown pejuta is considered very sacred to some tribes. Too much serious work makes Inyan a dull boy. Bring on the silly monster and a bit of fun my way anytime to lighten the day.

Michael, for what its worth, your human, but so are we all. Relax and enjoy a bit of fun and excitement. Everything doesn't have to be perfect or make any sense. I'm so full of it myself that I can hear the sh-- dripping from my ears sometimes. Then, I go back and edit my post as I realize that perhaps I meant what I said, but not how it was said. Other times, I can see how it makes no point to be so damn long winded... but yet I still find myself being long winded. Perhaps I just like to hear myself talk? I guess there could be worse personality defects... Jeffrey D. comes to mind....

Edited January 15, 2009 by Inyan

[Teotzlcoatl]

Maybe I'll create a Wiki page for "Lost Peyote" or something...

"Peyote"- Small, globular North/Central American cacti with medinical or psychoactive properties.

"Lost Peyote"- A "Peyote" which effects are unknown to science.

[Teotzlcoatl]

The 1st post in this thread has been updated, check it out!

[Inyan]

Teotz, now that might be taking it a bit too far. Someone might try to claim a reward for the found peyote after all. Then, where would you be... digging in your pockets just to find out that while it may be found... there was a reason it was discontinued in favor of a stronger or better medicine per say perhaps? Different doesn't always mean better, but different is sure nice in a world of oppression where one medicine may be here today and gone the next due to propaganda via those with an ethnocentric superiority such as those damn W.A.S.P's. You can bring culture to someone without class, but you can't make them any less ignorant as they are only capable of denying the facts and supporting the ones that support their own biased viewpoints. Logic? What is logic? Don't confuse me. I know not what I say nor what others say and this gets me in trouble from time to time and yet I am free to do so for a time.

[mutant]

So how are you plants doing, Teotz?

Long time no photo. You seem to be rehashing the same stuff all over, with those multiple personas of yours over ethno forums, again. I like the enthusiasm, and I got plenty of it myself about my plants and all ... but I still don't fancy your attitude, I read some of your other entries like in e-dot etc. - even though your cause is rational, indeed, I too wanna have all these cult cacti species and propagate .....

Pelecyphora is one awesome cactus, I plan to be buying a couple of those in the near future. Do you have any?? Come on give us at least some eye porn, just to prove we ought to take you more seriously!

You don't HAVE to prove anything to anyone if you ask me, but some photos would be nice

[Inyan]

I'm not privy to everything clearly, Mutant... but photo's are easy enough to come by, crop, etc. Photo's don't prove a thing in my book. Second, depending on ones country, circumstances, etc... it might not be wise to post pictures... but then neither would posting comments incriminating oneself either. I'd hate to see some member get heated about something and post something they shouldn't. Sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt and say... does it really matter if the person is growing something or not? Does it really matter if all they have in their possession is a few T. pachanoi. and perhaps a stray L. diffusa. I could purchase several hundred cacti of interest all grown by some other nursery... does that prove I won't kill them in a week or that I grew them to that size myself? Sometimes, you have to let things go and realize its not that important in the end. What is important is a genuine interest and desire to learn and share idea's. Now, if someone shares something that doesn't work or is full of B.S., I don't always post my opinion on the matter to blow them away. Perhaps they believe it or perhaps they are mistaken... the point being is that their lack of knowledge does not detract from my own knowledge and anyone who wishes to become an expert over night by reading the forum's will be largely mistaken. Still, you can't discount an experience simply as it doesn't jive with what you know to be true. The mind is a powerful thing and if you know chicken pea soup is poisonous and you can die from it then you can be sure that you can. Regardless of the fact that you and I know the soup is safe to eat. Set and Setting... thats my opinion for what its worth. I try to listen to those I respect where it concerns another, but I still make up my own mind in the end. It may take longer if someone I respect has a negative feeling or emotion attached to such a person, but I realize that being human we can all misjudge character and who that person was yesterday is not the same as who that person is today. If it doesn't hurt someone then let it be as you may be hurting someone else who needs your support. Just my misguided attempt to share a bit of my personal feelings on the matter. I know Michael is very respected and perhaps one of the most respected in the cacti field in many forums. I respect him. I also know we all make mistakes and hold onto things longer than we should sometimes... myself included.

[mutant]

Inyan you are right in most of what you're saying. Teotz has said he is growing many cacti from seed, and also has been advertising Sacred succulents for long time... I suppose he did purchase some stuff of their very interesting catalogue...I would love to see some of his plants, be it seedlings, 'lost peyotes' or bluer than blue peruvianus. The photos are not to prove something, but to make me happy seeing them.

I am very honest guy, I have told teotz I don't much like his attitude, and sincerely I don't see this has changed. Even if Teotz decides to make the hype as big as he can and [say] profit from it, he has every right to do it, I have the right to doubt him and his attitude

[Inyan]

Inyan you are right in most of what you're saying. Teotz has said he is growing many cacti from seed, and also has been advertising Sacred succulents for long time... I suppose he did purchase some stuff of their very interesting catalogue...I would love to see some of his plants, be it seedlings, 'lost peyotes' or bluer than blue peruvianus. The photos are not to prove something, but to make me happy seeing them.

I am very honest guy, I have told teotz I don't much like his attitude, and sincerely I don't see this has changed. Even if Teotz decides to make the hype as big as he can and [say] profit from it, he has every right to do it, I have the right to doubt him and his attitude

Mutant,

I like the fact that sacred succulents offers some choice hybrid seeds, but then so do many other places. Personally, I don't advertise for any place I haven't personally done business with and I advertise freely for such places as I want others to have a good experience. There is nothing worse than buying seed from a "professional company" and having to wait 2 months for an order. Now, you do have to take into consideration that this may be a one time thing... etc. I don't nock people who make a profit either, but like you... I think for myself. I don't let hype do my thinking for me. Now, hype might persuade me to buy something once, but once bought... I will of course dispel any hype I find as I don't wish for others to waste money on something under false pretenses. I buy what I buy and from whom I buy it from as they have faster than fast service, generally good germination rates, cheap prices, etc. Now, if I see a novelty item I might want... I may enquire on it or be willing to pay a bit more than I might otherwise. Cuttings are pretty straight forward if your buying the pictured item, but many places have one picture up and you get something that doesn't quite match up to the picture. Hybrid seedlings are even harder to maintain a tight lid on as some of the experts find things in their seedlings that couldn't possibly have occurred from the cross they made which means that in all likelihood, cross contamination occurred via an insect, q-tip error, paint brush contaminated via the anthers of one cacti/plant while pollinating a series of flowers, etc. Things happen, so anytime I get seed from a supposed hybrid... I count it as valid only after I see the seeds themselves growing and or flowering and even then sometimes I dont' count em as genuine until I've seen the babies produced from the hybrid babies. Your honesty Mutant is to be praised as well, but I'm not sure how helpful it is. Specific insights into another person's comments often helps if you can make a direct quote or point to a direct line. Sometimes this wakes us up and were like... holy sh... that was me.. or that was how I sounded... but then other times the person is like.. who cares.. or I'm just like that.. either way, you can't change other people and you'll go nuts trying to help someone change who doesn't see that they need to change or that anything is wrong with what they have said. I know I've come off as arrogant at times, pissed, and all kinds of other things that I'm not proud of. Sometimes its been warranted and other times it hasn't. However, if I'm feeling attacked I have been known to lose it and react instead of act. Enough said on this sad commentary of being human. Damn, if we were only all perfect beings of light and love. Still, I'm not one for letting another walk on me either and neither should anyone in here accept such abuse either inferred or otherwise. We need to show each other some respect, but most of all we need to respect ourselves... If we need to police members who are being unruly or bar them from a forum for a time to let them wake up then that is what must be done. Still, if you slap a person with a punishment of some kind like this it doesn't do much good if they don't see what they have done as being wrong or offensive. My brain is starting to hurt from all of this nonsense. Enough rambling. You most certainly have a right to your opinion Mutant and you have a right to express it as we all do.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Inyan

[Teotzlcoatl]

Pelecyphora is one awesome cactus, I plan to be buying a couple of those in the near future. Do you have any?? Come on give us at least some eye porn, just to prove we ought to take you more seriously!

Pics soon. Don't worry. Mutant sure you have every right to doubt. Pics soon, like I said...

[mutant]

Didn't want to sound as a bitch, which I might just did.... maybe someone has to do it??

[Teotzlcoatl]

It's cool dude.

Here's one of the newest ones... but I'm sure you've seen it.

[PD.]

Id like to see your Pele seedlings too teotz!

[MORG]

Teotz', is that photo doctored at all?

The swirl/vortex in the centre of the flower is pretty remarkable. When I zoomed in on the large size image it looks like a Photoshop effect.

[mutant]

I don't know if I would notice, because I haven't seen a lopho flower in real life, but it sure looks strange, now that MORG noted it. What kind of hybrid is it?

[Inyan]

I'm no expert on photoshop, but the flower has been doctored. Very nice work though and I might even consider it bordering on artistic. Nice for a background on the desk top.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Teotz', is that photo doctored at all?

O I'm sorry. I should have stated that yes it has been modified... I put a "swirl" on the flower.

Nice for a background on the desk top.

It's my pic and I give any member of the Corroboree full premission to use and/or modifty it in any way they please.

Id like to see your Pele seedlings too teotz!

They still just look the same of Lophophora seedlings... just little green blobs. How long does it take for them to start showing their adult features? They are at least 6 months old now...

What kind of hybrid is it?

It's Lophophora williamsii var. swirly

J/K it's just standard Williamsii.

Edited January 18, 2009 by Teotz'

[mutant]

They still just look the same of Lophophora seedlings... just little green blobs. How long does it take for them to start showing their adult features? They are at least 6 months old now...

You're not grafting any??? if not, its gonna be a looooooooooooooooooooong wait I think till you see the pele in them ......