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mark80

TBMs - are they who they say they are?

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I am a little confused as to which forum to post this in I will post it in general cs so feel free to move it.

Note - Please no discussion about potency unless it is used as a tool to determine which species it is.

For a very long while I have been confused about tbms. I have two tbms and there morphology is quite different to one another.

I have noticed that when a cacti goes monstrous or cristate it keeps its spines, such can be seen in m.geomterzian, t. pachnaoi, opuntia, CPM, cereus peruviana, etc.

One of my tbms has what I would call distinct tbm spines (please see photo 1) and compare this to photo 3. The second tbm (photo 2) has distinctive spines which are more closely related to photo 4 (a t.peruviana).

The similarties are most striking when the top aeroles are used to compare (as seen again in the photos) this may be indicative of morphology (such as embryology seen in human development).

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I think they are monstrose versions of bridgesii, their spines have never looked otherwise to me.

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I think number 2 looks distinctivly differnt from number 1.

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There is another TBM form thread around here somewhere, but its my personal religious conviction that using a search engine is an ungodly capitalist construct... all a setup, man, so youre too busy searchin to get anything disruptive done to society, etc... pyramids and all that.. So it looks like as good a place as any for a TBM topic.

These aren't fresh, most of these specimens are now twice the size and looking even more distinctive, but I'm also that guy on the ad with the digicam and dying batteries... only at the most interesting of moments! Anyways... all from the same "parents", seen in the "group photo"... I have since picked up another two lil clumps and both of those act almost identically, cept one tended to have odd number of "ribs" on its sections and the other tended to be even numbers. Weird. Some pics... fresh ones to come as soon as I feel like teaming up with Doorknob to have a go at the local shops :P

btw if it looks NOTHING like a TBM, it's not... too tired to go cropping things atm.

A decent whack of the newer pups and older ones etc look a lot like T. huanacoensis, in terms of spines and colouration etc.

Even very heavily monstrosed specimens of other cacti retain normal spination, even where things go really wrong and you get blurred together kidney shaped aerioles that are actually two or three normal ones jammed together, you can see the plant has made every effort to still spit out the right number and form of spines , even if all else is going crazy.

Does anyone have reliably identified Trich/Echi whatever, both normal and monster forms... could maybe be a real saint and have a close look (on macro mode :P ) at what the spination is doing on them. maybe the best judge would be a specimen with normal and monstrose growth on the same roots, then we could have a look at whether the dodgy maths alone are enough to change spination or if its to do with heritage of the original stock more than what the outside of the cactus is up to.

"Attenborough : having laid the synthetic scent traps, the naturalists retreat to a safe distance in sure hopes of catching a glimpse of two of the most querrulous species in the area... The Truchasaurus, and the equally formidable Trichosmithus" :P

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...showtopic=15749 some piccies in the middle of this thread (numma 8? burp) remind me a lot of my own TBMs. Ah, lucky 13 too, very very similar, and also to a few I've seen in other people's collections wearing TBM badges with pride :P

VM

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Edited by Vertmorpheus

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yes but the variation of the spines within the clone itself is large.

Edited by teonanacatl

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I think they are monstrose versions of bridgesii

Seconded. Colour, spination, tendency to rot, ideal growth parameters, etc, etc.

I think number 2 looks distinctivly differnt from number 1.

Odds are they were both from the one stock and have just been brought up under different conditions. Maybe a different potting mix, smaller pot, more sun, less water, different micronutrients, etc. How often do you hear of people germinating bridgesii seed to find penises pop up? You dont, because they are an extreme rarity from seed. Somebody has come across it (probably from a streak of dumb luck), propagated the hell out of it (extremely lucky for cacti enthusiasts such as ourselves) and clones of it have now traversed across the globe. Most likely due to the fact that it resembles a penis. Hilarious, I know, but back to the cacti. I think that TBMs are simply monstrose forms of typical bridgesii (probably from south american stock) which can look so different between specimens simply due to environmental influence.

I am still not sure about their being a distinct difference between 'Clone A' and 'Clone B', or if they are one in the same and just different in appearance due to environmental factors. The so called 'Hulks Dick' (UTSE) was probably a standard TBM which had been grafted and thus forced out huge amounts of growth to become a collosal cock. I am really quite confident in saying that they are all from the same lineage. Still trying to find more and more evidence for this, but due to the fact that TBM origins are so shrouded in mystery, one might never know for sure.

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i think ur trippin mark :)

Probably.

Well it looks like i am wrong but i still there something different about em'.

Surely someone has grown a seed raised tbm... They must have an origin that someone knows about....

Hulks dick i doubt is just a grafted specimen.. i guess i should go sit abck in my hole :)

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guess i should go sit back in my hole

No mate - thats the reason that we are all here. To discuss! :)

Surely someone has grown a seed raised tbm

I have never heard of it. Ive searched the net, forums, old threads, etc and none have any info about the origins of TBMs (any of the 'different clones'). I am almost positive that it would have started as a seed grown beast, because if it were a regular plant that spurted deformed growth (in the form of phallic sections), it would likely revert back to regular growth from time to time, which it does not do. Like I said above, it would have almost certainly originated from seed, but being such an unusual deformity, there may never even be another grown from seed. All about chances and dumb luck IMO.

Hulks dick i doubt is just a grafted specimen

Like I said, this was just a thought and mere speculation. I have no idea on its origins, perhaps we should try to contact the person who posted the pics on the net (I have a feeling it was a nooker). I too am unsure of the likelihood of it being a monster-sized graft effort, but thats where I would think it originated from. Its a wonder that they arent more prolific around the community, perticularly if they were a different 'clone'. If they were, I am positive that they would be further spread (atm, I dont think anyone has Hulk apart from the original person). This leads to it likely being a graft - it probably reverted to regular TBM growth patterns upon making cuttings, and hence the lack of 'The Hulk' in the community. I cant confirm this, just a bit of speculation at this point :)

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"Hulks dick" is actually a monstrose offshot from t. bridgesii var lingispina. Check trouts notes and youll see the description in there.

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"Hulks dick" is actually a monstrose offshot from t. bridgesii var lingispina

Well there goes my grafted theory for the origins of Hulk. And possibly my theory that typical TBMs were originally sourced from a single seed. Though, I think that one may still ring true because they (typical TBMs) never revert to normal columnar growth.

BD, would you have any more info on the origin of the Hulk? I dont have any of Trouts books - perhaps I'll check out the website. Does anyone have any more pics of Hulk other than the 3 that were posted on the Nook (a guy holding a cutting and a cutting on a table)?

EDIT: Its a wonder that they (Hulks) arent more prolific around the community, perticularly if they were a different 'clone'. If they were, I am positive that they would be further spread (atm, I dont think anyone has Hulk apart from the original person). This leads to it likely being a graft - it probably reverted to regular TBM growth patterns upon making cuttings, and hence the lack of 'The Hulk' in the community.

I guess BD's reference about it being a monstrose offshoot would also be a very valid reason for it's lack of presence in the community. Odds are, it simply reverted back to regular growth habits.

Edited by Ace

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I just had a look for my book. I think i let a friend borrow it. If anyone had TN SC#2 its in there, listed as a form from longispina/us.

Sorry that all i know.

Edited by BlackDragon

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Couldn't find any info on the Trouts website... There was a section that looked like it is being set up to host info about monstrose forms, but nothing as yet. I might have to sus out the thread on the nook to see if there was any further info.

Edit: Limited info/pics on the Hulk can be found here. I have contacted the person who posted the pics with a request for info on the Hulks history in an effort to gain more understanding of TBMs in general. I'll advise if I am able to get any info :)

Edited by Ace

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I guess we really just need to wait til some flowers start showing on various Penises (peniis?) around the world.

In the meantime, does anyone know where I can find pics of those three-ribbed almost sharply triangular in section monsters? Like hulks dick in a way but very sharply defined and coming to quite a point? Any pointers much appreciated!

VM

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we really just need to wait til some flowers start showing

Never flowered, no signs of them flowering in future :( If they did, there'd be plenty of seeds about too (provided they were fertile). Unfortunately they can only be propagated vegetatively at this point (and likely the only way at all). A good reason for everyone to get a piece and treasure it so in the future there is an abundance of these lil penises :)

does anyone know where I can find pics of those three-ribbed almost sharply triangular in section monsters? Like hulks dick in a way but very sharply defined and coming to quite a point?

I have found that some pups tend to have a triangular (3-ribbed) look about them - I think it comes down to luck with the rib numbers. A bit like finding a 4 ribbed tricho amongst a group that normally produces 6-8 ribs. I dont think that they are any different to regular TBMs, just a slightly odd pup. I've seed some with only what appears to be 2 ribs, as well as some with upwards of what appears to be about 4 or 5. Like I said, 'what appears to be', as ribs on TBMs can be rather undistinguished at times, though at others can be very distinct and obvious (though never as much as a regular formed TB).

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yeah I have a 3 rib TBM pup that put me in mind of this other thing, which from memory was being sold as a cultivar in its own right... wheras a 3 rib TBM will still be relatively rounded on the corners, this thing came to almost chiselled from stone kind of corners along the ribs, and the kind of point youd take an eye out on. Very distinctive, looked like some manga style demon cock thingamejig (yez like that?). I just can't remember what they were calling it! It was almost entirely flat and angular rather than slightly bulbous.

My three rib TBM is coming off a short stumpy spineless penis, and is coming along very nicely.. very fast grower.

VM

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wheras a 3 rib TBM will still be relatively rounded on the corners, this thing came to almost chiselled from stone kind of corners along the ribs, and the kind of point youd take an eye out on. Very distinctive, looked like some manga style demon cock thingamejig (yez like that?). I just can't remember what they were calling it! It was almost entirely flat and angular rather than slightly bulbous.

Hmm, almost sounds like a different species altogether (or at least an unusual TBM pup). Was it the same sort of texture/size/look as a regular TBM, but with a 'chiselled' look? If so, then it was probably just a regular (albeit slightly unusual) TBM, but if the epidermissize/shape/look/etc was even slightly different, it probably was a different species/clone. I am kind of getting an image of a hylocereus crossed with a 3 ribbed, fleckless A. myriosigma... Did it have a distinct 'penis' look still? Likely to be TBM, or something else? Without pics its pretty hard to say what it might have been. Sounds like it would have been quite an interesting one to add to the collection!

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