spunwhirllin Posted February 6, 2008 I've tried like 10 times to post these pics,thats why text is fairly scarce. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conan Troutman Posted February 6, 2008 damn yanks!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Auxin Posted February 6, 2008 Hey, I'm a yank! I gots to get me a few of those too! I'll beam a few hippie love vibes to your plants, these pups need to spread in cultivation more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 7, 2008 hmmm, I am seriously unconvinced. These look like members of the Rubiaceae [think coffee, chacruna, etc] rather than Malpighiaceae, which is also what the seed shape indicated. That might also explain the very long germination - Banisteriopsis, Stigmaphyllon and the winged Diplo seeds germinate quickly or not at all, while things like Psychotrias can take months. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spunwhirllin Posted February 7, 2008 A known Diplopterys plant compared to my plant Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) EG's herbarium link to Dip cab What intrigues me is that this specimen shows NO winged seeds. What may be mistaken for seed wings in this specimen are clearly flowers given cross references to living material. Edited February 7, 2008 by Pisgah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 7, 2008 Also, FWIW, the unwinged seeds in question have a membrane around the main seed that comes off easily after a light soaking. This membrane seems a bit broken up, not complete. There could be more plant material that was attached to this membrane before it dried and broke off. What is compelling to me is that the seeds that I've seen have not been dually hemispheric like chacruna or coffee seeds. They don't seem to be one of two halves that popped out of a berry. I think all of the ones that I'm growing have been sourced from an Argentinian vendor. One batch came to me indirectly, and another I ordered directly from said vendor. Who knows? This is kind of fun, though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 7, 2008 Neotropical herbarium shows several other Diplo species which clearly have winged seeds. I have tried to removed the wing and fibre from around B.caapi seeds and this is not possible. The wing and fibrous coat are part of the seed coat. I've also cut a caapis eed open and it was a single seed. After looking at these pics I am pretty sure that these Diplo seeds are not Diplos. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 7, 2008 Neotropical herbarium shows several other Diplo species which clearly have winged seeds. But none of the cabrerana show winged seeds. In fact, the collection from Brazil seems to have a corky seed coat structure with deeply grooved indentations. And perhaps I'm looking at the ones from Ecuador incorrectly, but they seem to have seed structures that are rounded and small. There is very little extra matter on what appear to be the seed bodies. This does conform to the appearance of the commercially available seed. Again, I'm not a botanist. The samples from Ecuador may not have any seed bodies at all, but what I'm seeing as seed bodies are distinctly different from the flower bodies that do match living plant material photographs. I'm not asserting that the commercially available seeds are in fact cabrerana, or Diplopterys for that matter. I would like to know if I'm looking at these herbarium photos correctly, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 7, 2008 I have tried to removed the wing and fibre from around B.caapi seeds and this is not possible. The wing and fibrous coat are part of the seed coat. On another note, I think I just accomplished this very task with ease. I had some B. caapi var. tucunaca seeds soaking for a bit, and the winged portion broke away cleanly from the main seed body. The seeds had a winged portion affixed to what seemed like a round main seed body. The main seed body was attached to a small stem. Again, maybe I'm getting the parts of the plant wrong? I'll go take some pictures... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 7, 2008 And for clarity, this is what I'm assuming to be a seed structure on the Ecuadoran Dip cab specimen. Seems to match the structure of the round portion of the caapi seed with the stem that I just popped off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Evil Genius Posted February 7, 2008 Hi Guys, i´m not sure what they are but the plants look very much like a Psychotria species. I hope Spun has some luck and gets them to maturity as i´m very interested in the flowers. bye Eg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 7, 2008 Pisgah, your last pic is flower buds. The wing that breaks away clean..... the two bits you are holding up, are they botht he same thing? The left one looks like a bud while the right is the winged seed. So how do you get from the winged seed to the thing on the left? And what is the stem that is attached to the thing on the left [where does that fit into the seed morphology]? And just to complicate things, I've had another close look at the 'confirmed' diplo pic in post #6. Who confirmed this? The flowers in this plant look EXACTLY like a Psychotria, and NOTHING like the flowers on the herbarium sheet 29483 [which incidentally look exactly like caapi flowers]. I am sticking my neck out and saying that the pic in #6 is NOT diplo. In fact, I am confident that it is not in the Malpighiaceae family. About the only thing I am a little unclear about it the round structures in 29486. They are certainly not what would follow the flowers of 29483 as that plant has distinctly separate flowers which need to give rise to dinstinctly separate seeds and there would not be enough room for 30 of these round structures to bear on a single floral sprig. I don't trust that brasilian sheet as it is inconsistent with the other two and does not have the obvious traits of Malpighiaceae. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 8, 2008 I also just realised that the cotyledons in post #1 are like those of Rubiaceae and not at all like those of Malpighiaceae. Diplo is very closely related to B.caapi and peopel who have grown and seen the real thing unanimously report that the two can be confused with each other quite easily except for some minor traits regarding the glacous/pubescent surface of the leaves. I think there is a lot of wishful thinking going on here and some basic botanical principles being ignored. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pisgah Posted February 8, 2008 Pisgah, your last pic is flower buds. The wing that breaks away clean..... the two bits you are holding up, are they botht he same thing? The left one looks like a bud while the right is the winged seed. So how do you get from the winged seed to the thing on the left? And what is the stem that is attached to the thing on the left [where does that fit into the seed morphology]? The thing on the left is what I thought was part of the seed structure. It was attached to the winged portion, but popped off with gentle pressure after soaking a bit. I took a scalpel to both parts (the bulbous base with the stem, and the winged portion) and I see clearly now that the winged portion that broke off is the only part of the original structure that contains cotyledon. From the outside, the bulbous base portion with the stem appeared to have a dicotyledon structure. I was assuming the winged portion was merely a mechanical dispersal structure that broke away from the seed after dispersal. After slicing both portions, however, I understand this not to be the case. I'm slow, but can be taught a thing or two eventually. As far as the other points are concerned, the ones that actually deal with Diplopterys, I'm going to stop playing Mr. Helper for the time being. Cuz I dunno... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t st tantra Posted February 9, 2008 http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0007-196X...SF%3E2.0.CO;2-S Identification of Asymmetrically Winged Samaras from the Western Hemisphere Chetana Mirle, Robyn J. Burnham Brittonia, Vol. 51, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1999), pp. 1-14 doi:10.2307/2666549 This article consists of 14 page(s). maybe there is something in there that may help? i'd like to see it sometime. t s t . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spunwhirllin Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) I'm just as skeptical as everyone else about this plant.Sure I'm optimistic, and hopeful as to the identity of these seedlings. My initial thought regarding the seeds was psychotria spp.,same structure and all. But once I did a comparison with psychotria I was sure they were not,I believe I sent a comparative photo to you Torsten. I agree that the duration of germination is similar to phychotria,but so is Acacia phlebophylla. If you do a google search for Diplopterys photo's you will find scores of plants that appear to be shrubs,much like P.V. I have not been to the natural habitats of thses plants and seen them first hand,so i've not a foot to stand on.I know the source of these seeds is a reliable individual,and has always done well by me.However this fact alone doesn't really mean anything regarding these plants.He did say the seeds were gathered from a bag of collected chaliponga leaves,that he will distribute as chaliponga leaves.Perhaps there are several plants used as chaliponga? Either way I have no answers,but the outcome will be exciting to watch unfold.If they are infact another active psychotria,it'll be worth it! Torsten,I'm not sure of what basic botanical principles you're refering to,I'm not a botanist,just a steward of sacred plants.I am willing to learn though.I can read and understand what simple observation offers,but beyond that you've got me. Edited February 9, 2008 by spunwhirllin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 10, 2008 well, I was referring to the fact that diplo has a very close relative which is well documented in all stages of its life cycle. I've grown a few Malpighiaceae that are closely related and they all have certain features, such as the shape and position of the cotyledons etc. Ditto for Rubiaceae, although some of the rubiaceous features are more common among other families too and hence I would not be too confident about it being in the Rubiaceae. I was happy to give this seed the benefit of the doubt when it was only the seedshape that was inconsistent, but now every single aspect of the plant is inconsistent with Diplo and hence I have no doubt that it is not a Diplo. Then again, if the leaves of the plant are distributed as Diplo leaves then the plant is probably of interested anyway. Just for your record, Diplo grows just like caapi. In full sun they will be shrubby, but unlikely to ever have straight stems like Psychotria. I can't find a single pic online that shows diplo to grow anything like psychotria. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 10, 2008 I wish I could obtain a Diplopterys cabrerana plant... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zekesdream Posted February 23, 2008 IcarosDNA has a photo gallery (HERE)of wildharvesting D. cabrerana in Peru. It includes two pictures of a handful of fresh seeds, although the image is not of the best quality. This seed sourced from Argentina looks like this: Also came across this image while searching, said to be of a small D.c. plant: These seeds, even in sterilized soilless mix and inside a sterile incubator, are prone to fungal attack. A strong pre-treatment with perhaps Hydrogen Peroxide or Bleach seems to be a must. Great job, spun. Mine have yet to germinate, but only about 2.5 weeks in so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teotzlcoatl Posted February 25, 2008 I can't wait until these plants are in regular cultivation and everybody has one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted February 25, 2008 That argentinian seed looks like the fake stuff that's going round. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Torsten Posted March 1, 2008 Some more info has come to light. I did some research on Malpighiceae seed morphology tonite and found that Diplopterys has a modified samsara. So, rather than having a straight wing, the wing has been contorted into a ruffled ball. The ruffly things in the herbarium sheet that I didn't believe could be the seeds are indeed the young seeds! So, we have established that the straight winged seeds that are occasionally sold are not Diplopterys carerana [although they are a useful plant regardless]. The text also said that the seed structure of Diplo is otherwise pretty much identical with Banisteriopsis. Now, this is a problem. Caapi seeds are [as mentioned before] impossible to extract from the seedcoat and there is only one seed per wing. Then how does the Diplo seed presented here come so clean and come with a flat side where they appear to have paired up? After this new information I am now inclined to give these seeds the benefit of the doubt. I think we can all be very excited because it seem Diplo is finally being made available [and I feel like a tool for getting it so wrong]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
