Crossing Cacti

[Inyan]

Deliberate cross pollination attempts made in mass and with accurate records of how, when, and what types were utilized would be nice. There are many general rules and many rules that can be broken via different means. Do these things happen in the wild? Well, lets think if its possible that a stigma could get damaged in the wild and subsequently pollinated. Possible, but not very probable, still the cross would have to be made at the same time the damage was done.. a natural cut style method or mutilated style method would have thus taken place. F1 seedlings may be parthenogenetically produced via this pollen which by its very definition means that while no pollen dna was actually incorporated into the mix, seed still formed. This is why further crossing F1 x F1 is important. It is also important to utilize the pollen donor of the original cross, or species type at the least, to cross to this F1 seedling as the cross may only be able to go one way. Even with a successful cross, chromosome elimination may occur, seed may or may not germinate or even mature, germination may be sporadic, etc. etc. Is this a valid area to spend ones time? The answer depends on how much you like hybridizing or how much you value the goal you are after. Just because the common consensus is that it can't be done doesn't mean it can't be done. You have to be willing to try and try again. To think outside of the box. Mentor pollen and pollen cocktails combined with multiple fertilizations of via the cut style method, etc. may yield some added genetics. The trick is to realize that all of this generally requires a nice stock of pollen, the ability to store pollen in airtight/watertight containers, etc. I love diversity, but I don't buy everything I hear either. I also realize that sometimes too few experiments/pollination attempts, etc. were done to convince me that it isn't possible. All too often I have heard some crazy idea when it comes to hybridizing and then after doing some research on that idea found out that indeed, that technique did have some merit. Even environmental influences can be passed on to seedlings for 1-2 generations... if you don't think a grafted plant exists in a different environment than a non-grafted cutting of the same plant grown right next to each other... you are sadly mistaken. Jumping genes/transposons etc. can affect genetics as well.

Graft-induced hybridization has been previously reported in Capsicum annuum L....These Graft induced genetic changes occur only during "mentor" grafts. when the scion is maintained without leaves while the stock, having vigorous branches and leaves, serves as the DNA donor. Graft transformation of the scion occurs when chromatin masses migrate from the lignified cells of the stock's stem, through the vascular system, and are incorporated into the new cell nuclei at the active primordia of the scion (Ohta 1991). A referenced and quoted from http://books.google.com/books?id=vY94Joa8X...9&ct=result

You can literally months researching how one particular method works in one plant/cacti and not in another or works differently in another plant or not at all.... enough rambling for now.... Lol, I can't stop.

http://www.actahort.org/books/625/625_12.htm

"MOLECULAR MECHANISM OF GRAFT TRANSFORMATION IN CAPSICUM ANNUUM

We have analyzed genetic variation in the graft-induced variant lines of pepper for 50 years. Various kinds of variations have been found with irregular genetic behaviors in the progenies derived from repeated grafting and reported. Based on our experiments, we especially suggest that transformation is a probable mechanism for graft-induced genetic changes. To verify the hypothesis, we surveyed DNA transferred from stock to scion by using molecular techniques. We found several specific common DNA sequences among scion, stock and graft-induced variant such as tomato transposon-like sequence. It is likely that gene transfer and integrated mechanism in the grafted plants might be mediated via retrotransposon system. By using differential display, we are further analyzing some genes responsible for bushy plant and inverted-blunt fruit that are typical characteristics in the graft-induced variant lines."

http://www.bulbnrose.org/Heredity/Mungbeans/mungbeans.html

Graft-induced Inheritable Variation in Mungbean and Its Application in Mungbean Breeding

Okay, enough information for one day....

[Teotzlcoatl]

Has anybody ever tryed a Lophophora fricii X Strombocactus disciformis hybridization???

Strombocactus disciformis-

Strombocactus disciformis ssp. esperanzae-

Lophophora fricii-

Lophophora fricii var. albiflora-

There are pink flower forms of Strombocactus and white flower forms of Lophophora fricii... so it gets ya thinking...

Hmm....?

The relationship of Obregonia with Lophophora fricii and Strombocactus (even if a distant one) seems logical based upon morphology alone.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Teotz'

[Teotzlcoatl]

Look how much alike Acharagma roseana flowers look when compared with some species of Lophophora....

Edited February 10, 2009 by Teotz'

[kadakuda]

Acharagma have already been shown to be the most closely related species to Lophohpora than any other....so its a good place to start...my plants are not flowering age yet...so i'm out.

[Auxin]

Acharagma has been shown by rpl16 intron sequencing [1] to be closest to L. diffusa, yes. By the same measure Obregonia is the closest relative to L. williamsii. Is there a genetic sequencing based phylogeny that puts Acharagma closer to L. williamsii than Obregonia?

[1] Molecular Systematics of Tribe Cacteae (Cactaceae: Cactoideae): A Phylogeny Based on rpl16 Intron Sequence Variation (Systematic Botany (2002), 27(2): pp. 257–270)

[Teotzlcoatl]

I just know that Acharagma, Obregonia and Leuchtenbergia are the three cacti that are genetically closest to cacti in the genus Lophophora.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Teotz'

[kadakuda]

Is there a genetic sequencing based phylogeny that puts Acharagma closer to L. williamsii than Obregonia?

nope, not that i know of. your right, obregonia is closer to willy and achar. is closer to diffusa i'm just too lazy to type it out usually

[Teotzlcoatl]

I'm glad I just purchased an adult flowering size Obergonias recently!

Now I can try to cross one of them with a Lophophora williamsii!!!

Sweet! I'm going to attempt to use the Obregonia as the mother plant (the plant which bears the fruit) at first... since I only have 1 flowering Obregonia if get fruit with seeds... I'll know it's a hybrid!!!

Also... I am highly inclined to think that Obregonia and Strombocactus will hybridize readily... However... I believe it's going to be a matter of finding the right strain or cultivator, with the right flower color and/or morphology and also locality for the hybridzation to occur.... when hybridizing Lophophora williamsii this is probably even more important!

Edited February 11, 2009 by Teotz'

[kadakuda]

Sweet! I'm going to attempt to use the Obregonia as the mother plant (the plant which bears the fruit) at first... since I only have 1 flowering Obregonia if get fruit with seeds... I'll know it's a hybrid!!!

you still wont know until you grow it out. even then there is doubt cause its possible it just selfs itself and makes a fucked up looking mutt.....which us humans tend to think is pretty.

Also... I am highly inclined to think that Obregonia and Strombocactus will hybridize readily... However... I believe it's going to be a matter of finding the right strain or cultivator, with the right flower color and/or morphology and also locality for the hybridzation to occur.... when hybridizing Lophophora williamsii this is probably even more important!

flower colour is not really that important....look how many other hybrids there are of totally diff flower *colour*. flowers are important.....i try to look at the style, ovary/ovules, pollen and overall flower morphology when trying to hybridize....but that may not mean much.

one thing i HATE about trying to hybridize L. williamsii is its self fertile.....so i often cut the anthers before the bud opens (i pre open it and get an razor blade in action). But i always have so much doubt with this species being the mother. i have gotten a single plant from many L. fricii x L. williamsii crosses.....totally not sure how i can tell if it worked or not though, they can both look like each other in most regards. so i am thinking testing it, when its older, to see if its self fertile or sterile....but even that leaves too many questions un answered.....

[Garbage]

Struggling to imagine a Lophophora X Leuchtenbergia.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Struggling to imagine a Lophophora X Leuchtenbergia.

Me too! Seems like Lophphora X Astrophytum would work alot better.... BUT Leuchtenbergia is much closer genetically (strange huh?)

[Garbage]

For all that is known the Lophophorae could be extant hybrids of some long gone species.

[Teotzlcoatl]

For all that is known the Lophophorae could be extant hybrids of some long gone species.

I think many of the small cacti know as "Peyotes" or "Lost Peyotes" from Mexico converge somewhere down the line....

Does anybody know what Lophophora's closest extant South American relative is?

[Auxin]

 

 

Me too! Seems like Lophphora X Astrophytum would work alot better.... BUT Leuchtenbergia is much closer genetically (strange huh?)

What makes you think Leuchtenbergia is closer to Lophophora than Astrophytum?

Does anybody know what Lophophora's closest extant South American relative is?

Well that would probably be Mammilalria colombiana and Mammillaria mammillaris if you count them as south american. They are from colombia, venezuela, etc. but are believed to have arrived there by island hopping from north america rather than passage through central america. Central america is kind of a bottleneck. My understanding is that north american cacti largely evolved from seeds brought over by birds from south america before central america connected the two and later when north america was inhabited by ancestors of the modern north american cacti, including Lophophora, that that land bridge was created and south american cacti spread up into central america evolving into tropical cacti. So Lophs may not have any close relatives in south america that actually came from there. If your looking for a bridge for eventual breeding of Cacteae to stuff like Trichocereae then Pachycereeae looks like the best bet since its got obvious roots into the histories of cacti on both continents. And yes some of your 'False Peyotes' are of Pachycereeae- like Echinocereus polyacanthus, E. scheeri, E. grahamii, etc.

[kadakuda]

Luechtenbergia is placed in a different clad.....the Ferocactus clad....and it has be hybridized with Ferocactus before. im waiting for my stupid plants to open a flower, they keep making them then dieing

As for Lophophora and Astrophytum...personally i wouldn't of thought it possible cause the flowers seem, at least to me, so different....But L. diffusa has been crossed with A. asterias. not sure what his method was though, cause i have tried that same cross numerous times without success i don't have the touch lol.

I also had a fricii i pollinated with Thelocactus setspinus (sp?) and the Thelocactus set fruit, but all seeds were undeveloped and nothing came of it, so i am thinking it might of selfed itself.

Any of you guys got any crosses you can share in the works?

[Garbage]

Same here,buds then drying out.

More water needed ,too hot,daylight length wrong?

I don't know.

[kadakuda]

i dont get it.......other growers like 5 km from me get it to work and they use the same sand and ferts......???? fuggers just being difficult. maybe i will water more, they only get a drink every month or something lol.

[Jack]

Leuchtenbergia can handle a lot more water mine get watered every couple of days.

[kadakuda]

ya i know, i just don't pay any attention to them....they are at the back of the bench....maybe more is needed for flowering?

i feel sorry for my oldest plants....they are habitat plants (some of the very few i own cause i dislike the idea) and are in pretty rough condition from a previous sun blast.

[mark80]

I just know that Acharagma, Obregonia and Leuchtenbergia are the three cacti that are genetically closest to cacti in the genus Lophophora.

Have a source? I hope your not just saying it.

[Auxin]

Hehe. Whatever the source Teotz doesnt seem too far off. The most recent relevant phylogenetic tree I've found in the research is Molecular Systematics of Tribe Cacteae (Cactaceae: Cactoideae): A Phylogeny Based on rpl16 Intron Sequence Variation Note their schematic tree on page 7, its quite interesting. As kada mentioned Leuchtenbergia is up in the Ferocactus clade, not too close to Loph but closer than Mamm. and supposedly there were successful crosses with Mamms. Closer in relation to Loph is the ATEP clade, there is a subtle but very significant clue in there for any breeder that might want to do something far more significant than give Lophophora sp. spines!

Has anyone found a phylogenetic study of Cacteae that goes into even more depth than the aforementioned article?

[kadakuda]

thats the one i read.

[Garbage]

The Leuchtenbergia watering tip is to try and keep all the tips green,it looked like the more recent tubercles were okay but the flower still failed.

[Teotzlcoatl]

It's almost Spring here in S.C. and I can't wait to start seeing some flowering and attempting some crosses!

I used Q-tips for transfering pollen last year... what should I use this year?

Can anybody tell me about the different parts of the flower and such?

[cactophyle]

Has anyone heard of a cultivar that has fibrous roots?

[EDIT] Dump

Edited March 24, 2009 by cactophyle